Now, tell me why I shouldn’t believe those things?
Apparently “because they’re not true” is insufficient to you? Truth is apparently not an important consideration. I guess it gets in the way of belief.
Tell me why I shouldn’t have faith, exactly. Ignore the Bible and its origins.
Because faith is not a reliable way to discover truth. Faith just prevents you finding out if your beliefs are false. Anything that disconfirms your belief will be handwaved as “well, I just have faith.” Faith is impervious to evidence and truth.
Name any belief that cannot be held entirely through faith alone. Any. Just one. Can anyone believe in anal-probing aliens based entirely on faith? What about believing their race to be superior? What about believing that god wants you to kill certain people? That an invisible unicorn lives in your garage? That aliens send telepathic messages at midnight from their secret base on Pluto? Can any of these not be believed entirely based on “faith” and nothing else? if not, what is the difference between faith and delusion? What is mental illness if we must endorse someone’s assertions because they have “faith”?
If someone believes such a thing based on “faith,” what evidence or argument can you provide to convince them otherwise? If there’s nothing that can’t be believed using only faith, then faith is irrational and unreasonable, and we need not endorse it.
If you believe things based on faith rather than truth, then there can be no good and bad, right and wrong. People kill their children through faith-healing. They had faith they were doing the right thing. So how can you judge them as wrong when they had faith in their beliefs? Their faith told them they were correct. The reason we know they were not is only due to objective reality, from discovering truth, about how human bodies work and medicine works and how diseases work, and so on.
In a world of faith, you cannot assert anything being right or wrong, good or bad. Because someone somewhere has faith. Faith holds us back. It poisons our interactions with the world.
As Christopher Hitchens said, “the suicide-bombing community is entirely faith-based.” And as Sam Harris pointed out:
“The men who committed the atrocities of September 11 were certainly not ‘cowards,’ as they were repeatedly described in the Western media, nor were they lunatics in any ordinary sense. They were men of faith—perfect faith, as it turns out—and this, it must finally be acknowledged, is a terrible thing to be.”
Well, you might say that their faith was wrong. Except, you don’t get to say that, when you use faith to protect your beliefs from disconfirmation. When they’re using the same process as you (faith), you don’t get to tut-tut that they got the results of that same process wrong.
Every believer claims to have faith. Every believer claims to have the correct beliefs based on faith. But every believer can’t have the correct beliefs. None of the believers can figure out whose are correct and whose are not without resorting to more faith. “I have faith yours are wrong.” Faith cannot be used to determine truth.
If “faith” is the basis for your belief, you’re saying that you don’t care what’s true. And honestly, you’re terrifying. You will believe and do anything without regard for evidence or truth, if your faith tells you so. Your beliefs and intentions in the world are explicitly not aligned with reality.
I am proud of my faith. I am proud of my creed and my doctrine.
Yikes. Your doctrine describes all that nonsense up there that you’ve chosen to pretend isn’t there.
Your doctrine also describes an eternal deity who will let you commit any atrocity you like against humans as long as you don’t hurt its feelings, prescribes slavery, commands killing girls who aren’t virgins on their wedding day, and wants you to stone your disobedient children to death. And who (supposedly) murdered over 20,000,000 people. It describes an afterlife where you will spend eternity at the foot of its throne praising it “day and night”, and that you are obligatorily compelled, at the threat of hellfire, to “love” your god more than all humans, all animal life, our planet, the universe itself. An eternal god who cannot be hurt or harmed must be your number one priority, and everything else in the universe is a secondary concern.
If you’re proud of it, you must not have understood it… I hope. It would be much more disturbing if you did understand it and still were proud of it.
Your creed gives priority to an imaginary ghost over real, flesh and blood humans. Your faith makes you credulous and impervious to truth. Your priority isn’t this world.
I might not be able to stop you, but I’m damn sure not going to endorse it, and I’m going to defend society from being influenced by your baseless beliefs.
I’ll be real with you, I don’t know anyone who takes it so literally. It’s use is from the story it tells, even if it’s not completely true.
So, you’re saying it isn’t true. But you don’t care. Most people want to believe as many true things as possible, and as few false things as possible. But not you.
If it’s not literally true, then we can conclude that the characters in it are not real or true either. The characters in a metaphor are themselves metaphorical. No tortoise and hare organized a race. If you don’t take it literally, we can conclude that the existence of the god and Jesus characters is not literal either.
If Adam and Eve aren’t literally true, if the Garden of Eden thing didn’t literally happen, then there was no Fall, no Original Sin. Therefore, Jesus either died for a metaphor or was a metaphor. The latter would make the most sense, since the bible gives a (two) direct (and contradictory) genealogies from Adam to Jesus. The descendants of metaphors are themselves metaphors.
Many parts of the world (but not all) are moving away from a literal interpretation of the Bible. The evidence that the Earth was not formed before the stars; the universe was not formed in a few days; and man did not suddenly pop into existence is so overwhelming, that you need a special determination to avoid evidence to believe the Biblical accounts.
But once you have taken that first step and accepted that the Bible is not 100% literally true, it’s easier to see that many parts of the Bible are not literally true. So, the talking snake story is a metaphor, the sun did not literally stop in the sky, Jesus did not literally mean hate your parents and your wife.
Taking out the unverifiable, the disproved and the absurd, will surely make the Bible stronger and more suited to people in the age of science and reason. So, I urge you to go through your Bibles with a marker pen and obscure those parts that are literally unbelievable.
The more you think about it, the more you will delete. If you do this diligently, you will delete a great deal of the book.
When you finally put your pen down, if you see God has gone too—congratulations! You’ve deleted God, the Bible’s final metaphor.
I mean, is there anything in the bible that is literally true? If your god and your savior didn’t literally do these things, then why even think they exist at all?
It is concerning though that you believers have been adjusting what’s metaphorical and what’s literal for hundreds of years and still haven’t gotten it right and still don’t agree on it. If none of you have figured it out, why should non-believers take the word of any of you?
Importantly, that assessment comes from the believers themselves. That is, Xians make themselves authoritative over their god and their savior.
Believers’ estimates of God’s beliefs are more egocentric than estimates of other people’s beliefs
People often reason egocentrically about others’ beliefs, using their own beliefs as an inductive guide. Correlational, experimental, and neuroimaging evidence suggests that people may be even more egocentric when reasoning about a religious agent’s beliefs (e.g., God). In both nationally representative and more local samples, people’s own beliefs on important social and ethical issues were consistently correlated more strongly with estimates of God’s beliefs than with estimates of other people’s beliefs (Studies 1–4). Manipulating people’s beliefs similarly influenced estimates of God’s beliefs but did not as consistently influence estimates of other people’s beliefs (Studies 5 and 6). A final neuroimaging study demonstrated a clear convergence in neural activity when reasoning about one’s own beliefs and God’s beliefs, but clear divergences when reasoning about another person’s beliefs (Study 7). In particular, reasoning about God’s beliefs activated areas associated with self-referential thinking more so than did reasoning about another person’s beliefs. Believers commonly use inferences about God’s beliefs as a moral compass, but that compass appears especially dependent on one’s own existing beliefs.
It’s use is from the story it tells, even if it’s not completely true.
Your defence is simply that it’s useful. Okay. So is the Iliad and Odyssey. So are Grimm’s and Aesop’s tales. So are Shakespeare’s tales, So are many episodes of Star Trek. If the sum total of your religious belief can be replaced by any modern moral tales - you know, without all the slavery and stoning - why do we need it?
All of this would be fine, except you seem to object to me pointing this out. Seemingly, you know it’s not true - you said so - but you felt obliged to respond to my post anyway? Simply because I pointed out what you already knew? Am I supposed to keep this a secret or something?
Secularly, I eat healthy, I exercise, I go outside and spend time with my friends. These are things everyone agrees on is good, but what is proof without belief? A million studies can come out about how good certain things are, but whether or not I believe it, if I don’t apply it to my life, I will get nothing out of it. I can just decide that I don’t believe in taking care of myself, but I will reap exactly what I sow when I end up sick sooner.
Things aren’t true because you believe they are. If they’re true, they’re true. Like any believer, you’ve granted yourself primacy over objective reality. You don’t need to believe things when you can understand them.
I don’t need to believe in gravity when I can understand how it works. I don’t need to believe in evolution when I can understand how it works. If I don’t believe in it, it doesn’t stop being true.
You have a need to believe which supersedes your desire to know. That’s where your faith comes from. You prefer to have comforting beliefs, rather than understand inconvenient truths.
I don’t know what sect of Christianity you have roots in, but I am curious. More than anything, I just wonder why do you think faith in God is so wrong if it does usher in very good things in the present world?
You named a handful of good things. None of them require “god”. None of them require religion, least of all Xianity. Do you think that none of that happens outside of Xianity?
“I challenge you to find one good or noble thing which cannot be accomplished without religion. It is impossible, you cannot do it.”
– Christopher Hitchens
The problem is you discredit and disregard humanity in the equation. You attribute all that is good to Xianity and your blood-god, and ignore everything that it costs humanity.
Never mind all the evil it has perpetrated, all the atrocities you’ve chosen to ignore, pretend didn’t happen, or handwave away with “well, they weren’t a true Xian.” You know the ones. The child rape ring conducted by the Vatican. The opposition to same sex marriage. The opposition to birth control. The religious motivation for race segregation. Hitler’s campaign against the Jews was him continuing the mission of Christ.
In a speech delivered in front of a Nazi audience in April 1922, Hitler made a more explicit reference to Christianity, referring to Jesus as “the true God.” He made it plain that he regarded Christ’s struggle as direct inspiration for his own. For Hitler, Jesus was not just one archetype among others, but “our greatest Aryan leader. ” While emphasizing Jesus’ human qualities, Hitler in these instances also alluded to his divinity. At a Christmas celebration given by the Munich branch of the NSDAP in December 1926, Hitler maintained that the movement’s goal was to “translate the ideals of Christ into deeds.” The movement would complete “the work which Christ had begun but could not finish.” On another occasion, this time behind closed doors and to fellow Nazis only, Hitler again proclaimed the centrality of Christ’s teachings for his movement: “We are the first to exhume these teachings! Through us alone, and not until now, do these teachings celebrate their resurrection! Mary and Magdalene stood at the empty tomb. For they were seeking the dead man. But we intend to raise the treasures of the living Christ!” In a nearly evangelical tone, Hitler declares that the “true message” of Christianity is to be found only with Nazism. He claims that, where the churches failed in their mission to instill a Christian ethic in secular society, his movement would take up the task. Hitler not only reads the New Testament, but professes - in private - to be inspired by it.
– “The Holy Reich: Nazi Conceptions of Christianity, 1919-1945″ by Richard Steigmann-Gall, pp 27-28.
He had faith. He had faith in Christ and what God wanted of him. He was continuing Jesus’ mission. His faith told him so.
“We do not tolerate anyone in our ranks who offends the ideas of Christianity, who stands up to a dissident, fights him, or provokes himself as a hereditary enemy of Christianity. This movement of ours is actually Christian.“
– Adolf Hitler
There is no better way to convince someone to do something awful than to say that it is divine will. Look at Abraham getting ready to stab a knife into his son.
“With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.”
– Steven Weinberg
“Faith” in god’s will is unassailable and short-circuits every evolved moral impulse. “It’s in god’s plan” is a great way to ignore people’s suffering. Or even blame it on them (”you didn’t have enough faith”). “I’ll pray for you” is a great way to do nothing and still feel virtuous.
Now, am I saying all Xians are Nazis? No. But…
“You don’t get to advertise all the good that your religion does without first scrupulously subtracting all the harm it does and considering seriously the question of whether some other religion, or no religion at all, does better.”
– Daniel Dennett
If your religion doesn’t outperform all other religions - and no religion - then why would we keep it around? If your car breaks down every third time you drive it and fills the cabin with carbon monoxide, well, it still does good things like getting you from A to B. Why replace it? Right?
That any amount of “good” comes out of it is is not the point. What about everything else? What is the total cost of this amount of “good”?
Here is the Born Again Again podcast, a podcast by two ex-Xians where they talk about how their belief gave them messed up ideas about sexuality, family and gender roles, about how it corrupted how they figure out what is true, about imaginary wars of good and evil, about judging people outside their clique, about minimizing themselves to be more godly, about what a friend is and the illusion of friendship with others just because they’re Xian too, about the fear, about the manipulation, about the thought-terminating cliches, about the discouragement to think critically, about the delusion that completely normal emotions were “god” or the “devil”, about the creation of dependence, about how worthless and broken they were without an imaginary space monster, about always wondering if you’re good enough, about the abusive relationship that they had with both the religion and the god character, about never having chosen to be Xians, about never being free to choose to “love” god with the threat of hellfire hanging over them, about the completely normal experiences they forfeited to be more Xianly…
Listen for yourself. I dare you. You asked why I think “faith in God is so wrong.” Well, let two people who were there tell you. They were no lukewarm Xians. They were fully involved in their church, in ministry, in all of it.
And if you don’t agree with them, then that’s kind of my point. Despite their scriptural basis, you again give yourself primacy over your god and your scripture.
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
Maybe those aren’t to be taken literally though, and therefore neither is the “truth” of the bible.
You judge your god by your secular morality. You shape your god’s beliefs, preferences and demands according to your personal interpretation and morality. You ignore what you find appalling (”no longer applies”), privately interpret what you think you can rescue, and zero in on the cherry-picked good bits. All of which reflect you.
You yourself said that the bible stories are not literally true, and the meaning that you then give them, comes entirely from you. You have a tight choke-chain leash on your god and your scripture. It’s time to acknowledge that.
Someone who was actually faithful, someone who believed on faith wouldn’t find anything wrong with the scripture. They would have total trust in their god and its word, that whatever it said was correct and not to be manipulated or interpreted by sinful, salvation-needing humans.
Now, I don’t intend to change your faith, either. I can’t, but you must realize that it’s longevity is due to something. I’m aware the amount of atheists is rising, and I am sad about that, but I hope that you will find something better to do with your time other than seethe about something that probably doesn’t affect you half as bad as you believe it to.
I don’t have faith. I don’t need faith to reject baseless god claims. It doesn’t require faith to say “I don’t believe you.” It requires no faith to read the bible and see what it’s telling you and reject it.
“Where there is evidence, no one speaks of “faith”. We do not speak of faith that two and two are four or that the earth is round. We only speak of faith when we wish to substitute emotion for evidence.”
– Bertrand Russell
Faith is only needed when evidence and reason is not there. Your preachers even encourage you to have more faith when evidence contradicts your belief. Faith is inversely proportional to evidence. Which should tell a reasonable person all they need. If you believe something on the basis of faith, it’s because there’s no evidence, and it’s more than likely untrue.
Appeal to Tradition
argumentum ad antiquitatem
(also known as: appeal to common practice, appeal to antiquity, appeal to traditional wisdom, proof from tradition, appeal to past practice, traditional wisdom)
Description: Using historical preferences of the people (tradition), either in general or as specific as the historical preferences of a single individual, as evidence that the historical preference is correct. Traditions are often passed from generation to generation with no other explanation besides, “this is the way it has always been done”—which is not a reason, it is an absence of a reason.
Non-belief has risen in proportion to knowledge of the world around us. The priests used to be able to keep humans stupid and credulous, cloistered into small villages, but non-belief is correlated with exposure to the outside world, to science, to new ideas, to knowledge, to education and the greater reach of people’s worlds.
Non-belief is rising because people have figured out that Xianity isn’t true. As you already recognize. The difference is that they care about what they believe. They recognize that we need to orient how we work with and navigate the world to objective reality, not superstitions and wishful thinking. That we can’t solve our problems if we don’t accurately understand them.
Ex-believers tell me all the time “I thought I was the only one.” When they find out there are more like them out there, who questioned and rejected silly superstitions, they say “I wish I’d known earlier, I wouldn’t have wasted so much of my life.”
What you’re really saying is that you would prefer your absurd and obviously false beliefs go uncontested. But what I post is a reaction to the intrusion of religious nonsense into society and the world at large. You all started this, not me, and then you act indignant and pious that I would dare to push back, that the fault lies with me getting in your way, that I’m “seething” or fighting something, as if I started this.
I’m sure oncologists would rather live in a world without cancer, but as long as it exists and they have the skills and the will, they will keep working away trying to make people’s lives better. To tell me that I should find something better to do with my time is to miss the point. I wouldn’t have to spend any time at all rebutting religious nonsense if religionists would stop promoting or even producing it in the first place.
I look forward to the day when we don’t have to talk about religious nonsense and the harm it does. You shut up, and I’ll shut up.
So, I really don’t need or welcome your sanctimonious pity. My time is very well spent, indeed.