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After much anticipation, the choose your own logo feature is live! Go to this thread to find out how it works and get the results of the create a logo contest!

Doctor Who: 60th Anniversary Specials |OT| Across the Whoniverse

 Thread starterDwebble 

 Start dateNov 17, 2023

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Wrexis

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Today at 9:52 PM

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#1,501

None of 13's companions were mentioned in that puppet scene. She made it without killing any of them then? :D

Regeneration scene is up.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2MFwLn-SmA

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Dary

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Today at 9:54 PM

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#1,502

OneTrueJack said:

View: https://twitter.com/WilliamWhoDW/status/1733592582909726773?t=FJYoTo_uw68tMfZ1rGLbPA&s=19

"So the whole timeline regenerated then".

I'm gonna go ahead and ignore this since it was in a commentary and not the episode, but Davies seems to think that the bi-generation travelled backwards along the timeline. So every Doctor just lives on instead of changing, I guess in branching timelines.

Which does explain Tales from the Tardis where all the old Doctors are still travelling. Davies said that would make more sense after the 60th, so I guess that's the explanation.

Click to expand...

It's Schrodinger's Doctor?!

Quantum suicide and immortality - Wikipedia

 en.wikipedia.org

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GrimGrinningGuy

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Today at 9:55 PM

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#1,503

Ashes of Dreams said:

Think they are setting up that Toymaker actively messed with history as some kind of retcon?

It's some kind of set up for sure

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TheGamingNewsGuy

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Today at 9:58 PM

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#1,504

Wrexis said:

None of 13's companions were mentioned in that puppet scene. She made it without killing any of them then? :D

Regeneration scene is up.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2MFwLn-SmA

Click to expand...

Yeppp,Companion Exits were less dramatic during 13s run

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Grue

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Today at 10:03 PM

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#1,505

Exclusive footage of 15 calling a returning character:

SPOILER

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Joqu

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Today at 10:04 PM

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#1,506

Edit: Hmmm. So I went back to rewatch that scene after posting this and you know... right after when the Toymaker is talking about all he did when he came to this reality, he says "I made a jigsaw out of your history, did you like it?" and the Doctor furrows his brows to indicate he doesn't know what he means but then we move on to the Master bit. Do you think that's referring to the Timeless Child and Fugitive Doctor stuff? Think they are setting up that Toymaker actively messed with history as some kind of retcon? Or am I reading too much into this line? lol

Click to expand...

I don''t think it's so much setup as much as it's a nod to how the doctor has had multiple histories and origins at this point, but I guess we'll see if it comes up again.

There's Big Finish stuff out there that gets into how the time war has had similar effects too, I just see it as more of this whole "Everything can be canon in doctor who" thing. Which I think is fun, lol

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pikachief

Prophet of Truth

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Today at 10:09 PM

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#1,507

I wasn't a fan of most of the episode (aside from the part with licensed music, that was great) as I felt like it had zero time to breath. The whole thing felt like a fever dream, which I usually like, but there was no time for any of the emotional moments to really set in and there was zero build up to anything that happened.

I was a HUGE fan of how it ended though. After the first special I turned to my wife and said how I wish David Tennant's run would end and his last scene was almost *exactly* how I described it to her. Down to him being an uncle to the family. But I figured there would be no way to get that ending because of who the doctor is. I cried and was very happy 😊

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batti

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Today at 10:11 PM

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#1,508

RepairmanJack said:

Thet ball scene felt so goofy.

It kinda lacked another contestant that could play off them both. Maybe the Toymaker could've roped in some ringer to make the game 2v2, along with a change of scenery.

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MrKlaw

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Today at 10:12 PM

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#1,509

Someone tell me I'm not crazy for thinking when the toy maker is sitting on the genesis cannon or whatever and he's doing his fake German accent going 'ze laser cannon viz de bang und ze boom' he was channeling Danny kaye

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Grue

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Today at 10:17 PM

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#1,510

MrKlaw said:

Someone tell me I'm not crazy for thinking when the toy maker is sitting on the genesis cannon or whatever and he's doing his fake German accent going 'ze laser cannon viz de bang und ze boom' he was channeling Danny kaye

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13lVvAANQss

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VorpalNonsense

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Today at 10:19 PM

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#1,511

Just finished the episode. Unfortunately some jackass on twitter last night was publicly posting leaks disguised as "speculation" so I wasnt as surprised by the regeneration as I would have liked to be, but this was a rockin episode and I loved it.

The Toymaker was great, NPH hit a home run. Really fun performance, and I loved how creepy they got with it. The conclusion with him was underwhelming, but the journey there was great. The Toymaker gloated about making a jigsaw of the Doctor's past. Is he... taking credit for the timeless child? Is that implying that he warped reality to fuck with the Doctor? Or am I reading too much into things...

What did the Doctor say about his bigeneration, that it was therapy out of order, or something like that? It seems like the 15th Doctor has complete memories but does not carry with him the trauma anymore, while the 14th Doctor has kept the trauma in order to go on holiday and work through it. The Doctor became so internally conflicted that it affected his regeneration. I wonder if after he's healed up sometime in the future, there might be a sort of reunification between the two, convergent regeneration. Anything could happen after what we saw today.

I wonder what the endgame for the 14th doctor is though. For now they can coast, let him recover, bring him in for the cameo assist every now and then, but like...then what? Feels like something that needs to be addressed, not now, maybe not even soon, but eventually. Today the doctor bigenerated. But after the 14th doctor recovers, will there be a convergent regeneration? Or is there just...two doctors forever now? seems like that would be a problem long term because you basically cant tell stories in modern london for as long as he's still around, unless david tennant is available for a cameo, because like...he may not be traveling around looking for trouble anymore, but if it came to his doorstep, he wouldnt sit it out, right? So this arrangement probably won't be permanent. Unless...he retires and becomes the Curator. But I'd rather leave the Curator forever as the far far unknown future as was intended.

I felt like I could see a hint of the 12th doctor in the 14th doctor today. At one point he was really slamming the human race as a bunch of violent apes in a way that felt like a 12th doctor takedown (or the 9th). I think the 10th doctor tended to be a little more positive than that. I enjoy the distinction.

I was surprised that the master got a mention at all, i figured they'd leave him on the toybox for a while. That's fun.

My lady and I are instantly in love with the 15th doctor. He's so good, so instantly. I am so excited for his era. Love his sassy attitude, and that his first order of business was a jukebox and mood lighting. This is gonna be a lot of fun. I'm already eager for Christmas. Lol@ him starting off his tenure in his underwear.

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MrKlaw

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Today at 10:23 PM

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#1,512

Grue said:

I dunno.

Needs a re-watch and I don't want to be the debbie downer in the thread

But the hairs on the back on my neck aren't up to be honest.

- I think I'm going to have to learn to accept Davies ex-machina endings again. Playing super-catch was definitely a bit anticlimactic as a conclusion to all the villain build-up. And smacking a whole new TARDIS out with a big mallet was, forgive me, just a bit Looney Tunes - and not in a good way.

- I wish there was a more conclusive wrap-up to Fourteen's arc. The reason for the face coming back was to 'come home'? To live with Donna? This makes zero sense to me; and I say that as someone who has greatly enjoyed Tennant's vulnerable portrayal this time around.

- Yes, in the meta-narrative I hate the fact there are two Doctors rocking around now. I know it happened before, I didn't like it then much either; but mostly I worry it's going to leave everyone thinking 'bring Tennant back!' whenever the show is perceived to have a dip in quality.

​

NPH was great though, I've enjoyed Tennant this time around far more than the last time, and I remain excited for Gatwa. Onwards!

Click to expand...

I read it not just coming back to Donna but to heal, to recover etc. slow down and take some time - which he can do knowing he's also still out there I guess

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Magister Xehanort

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Today at 10:23 PM

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#1,513

APOEERA said:

The former Lord President of Gallifrey could work as the big bad the Toymaker doesn't want to face since we haven't heard from him after Capaldi Doctor sent him away on a shuttle.

He would be pissed that he got sent away, Gallifrey got destroyed again and the Doctor is the Timeless Child which wasn't to have gotten leaked out.

Click to expand...

TheGamingNewsGuy said:

Or it could be Omega

Or maybe it could be The Great Vampires.

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apocat

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Today at 10:26 PM

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#1,514

So I wonder if the one who waits is actually a later regeneration of the Tennant Doctor. Having lost his human family, and having confronted the loss of a linear life as an immortal being, thus driven to a far darker place. That would make Mels inclusion make a lot of sense, since I believe she faced the Valeyard (I've never watched Trials myself) in her run?

That would certainly make the ending less of a happy one, mind, but would also make the Valeyard actually make more sense in the canon.

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MrKlaw

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Today at 10:27 PM

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#1,515

WhySoDevious said:

I was tearing up watching him start regenerating... but also excited that we were gonna end with a nice chunk of the episode with Gatwa.

I got the best of both worlds.

But NPH stole the show here. Absolutely brilliant.

Can't wait for the Christmas Special!

Click to expand...

When he started I was saying out loud 'wait but he hasn't done whatever he came back for so how can he just regenerate now?'

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YorkshireDaveUK

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Today at 10:29 PM

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#1,516

My head canon until I am told otherwise is that Ncuti is the doctors future generation pulled back to this point in time. it allows David's doctor to rest and heal, and for Nucti to start his run with a fresh perspective.

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TheGamingNewsGuy

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Today at 10:32 PM

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#1,517

apocat said:

So I wonder if the one who waits is actually a later regeneration of the Tennant Doctor. Having lost his human family, and having confronted the loss of a linear life as an immortal being, thus driven to a far darker place. That would make Mels inclusion make a lot of sense, since I believe she faced the Valeyard (I've never watched Trials myself) in her run?

That would certainly make the ending less of a happy one, mind, but would also make the Valeyard actually make more sense in the canon.

Click to expand...

What's also possible is that an outside force (like a cosmic entity) corrupts the 14th Doctor and becomes the Valeyard who later interacts with the Doctor's timeline in various forms hence him being in the 6th. The "Valeyard" Persona goes out of the 14th and he gets to live back with Donna, would still introduce the Valeyard as an element without ruining the 14th Doctor ending.

Not sure how i would feel about any of the Doctors becoming the Valeyard without outside inteference

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liquidtmd

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Today at 10:33 PM

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#1,518

YorkshireDaveUK said:

My head canon until I am told otherwise is that Ncuti is the doctors future generation pulled back to this point in time. it allows David's doctor to rest and heal, and for Nucti to start his run with a fresh perspective.

I thought that entirely was the implication of what they went with?

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YorkshireDaveUK

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Today at 10:34 PM

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#1,519

liquidtmd said:

I thought that entirely was the implication of what they went with?

It you watch it again it isn't explained terribly well, hence the rampant speculation here and online. I also took it as what I posted at first, then questioned myself.

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NewtonNextDoor

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Today at 10:40 PM

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#1,520

OneTrueJack said:

View: https://twitter.com/WilliamWhoDW/status/1733592582909726773?t=FJYoTo_uw68tMfZ1rGLbPA&s=19

"So the whole timeline regenerated then".

I'm gonna go ahead and ignore this since it was in a commentary and not the episode, but Davies seems to think that the bi-generation travelled backwards along the timeline. So every Doctor just lives on instead of changing, I guess in branching timelines.

Which does explain Tales from the Tardis where all the old Doctors are still travelling. Davies said that would make more sense after the 60th, so I guess that's the explanation.

Click to expand...

Does that mean all generations of doctor instead of dying, survived the regeneration and get to do something else? They rested and healed themselves. Some became a curator. Some might go into a different type of adventure. Some could become evil (Valeyard) This would explain why new doctor usually feels like a reset.

I dont think that David Tennant is coming back anytime soon. However this leaves the door open for other doctors (older ones) to come back. I believe that multiple doctor meetings are special and should be very rare (Even Capaldi said that). I imagine Davies understands that.

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SixtyTwoMike

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Today at 10:46 PM

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#1,521

RepairmanJack said:

It felt more like he came off as a very confident and sure of himself Doctor, not necessarily just nice. He literally comes off as someone who's been through therapy like the line says of doing therapy in reverse.

Some quoting weirdness going on here - I never posted that!

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shan780

The Fallen

Today at 10:47 PM

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#1,522

I enjoyed the episode a lot.

I do think it was a bit too fast-paced, and probably could've done with a longer episode or something like that. The Toymaker's demise fumbling a ball was a bit lame - I imagined the Doctor(s) would outwit him (like Geralt vs Gaunter O' Dimm, who's very similar to the Toymaker conceptually, in The Witcher 3).

The symbolism of Gatwa leaving his trauma behind was nice, and I'm excited for his series given the energy and charisma he showed in his short time this episode.

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RepairmanJack

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Today at 10:49 PM

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#1,523

SixtyTwoMike said:

Some quoting weirdness going on here - I never posted that!

Oh wow, so weird, going back to try to correct lol

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Parthenios

The Fallen

Today at 10:50 PM

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#1,524

If you're universe has time travel, it can't have a multiverse, and if it has a multiverse it can't have time travel. Doctor Who wisely avoids a multiverse, and Rick and Morty knows to stay away from time travel (with rare exceptions for each).

Not super thrilled with the idea of a Doctor Who multiverse (when the Doctor can simply simultaneously exist in different places and time without it). Weird time to jump into the multiverse fad, when it's been worn out for a bit too. Hopefully that's just banter for the commentary.

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OneTrueJack

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#1,525

The more I think about it, the more my biggest problem with the bi-generation is just how poorly explained the whole thing is. The dialogue just seems so...confused?

The Doctor says it's a myth...except they also may have just made the name up in the moment...except the Toymakes also seems to say it was his fault?? Fourteen and Fifteen split apart, except Fifteen still says that Fourteen still has to become him? The recent leaks said that Fifteen gets pulled from the future and the whole thing is a closed time loop, which seems to be an understanding taken from their dialogue in the Tardis (that Fourteen has to mentally heal so Fifteen can be at peace) but again that doesn't line up with the visuals or the actual events. Fifteen doesn't mention being from the future? Or does Fouteen's future experiences feed back into Fifteen...somehow?

And then we have Davies bts comments saying that this is supposed to be a complete shakeup that affects every previous Doctor despite nothing indicating that on screen...but it does line up with Tales from the Tardis so it's clearly something he had been thinking about...what?

It feels like a half-formed idea. Like something major got lost in rewrites.

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MrKlaw

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Today at 10:51 PM

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#1,526

Parthenios said:

If you're universe has time travel, it can't have a multiverse, and if it has a multiverse it can't have time travel. Doctor Who wisely avoids a multiverse, and Rick and Morty knows to stay away from time travel (with rare exceptions for each).

Not super thrilled with the idea of a Doctor Who multiverse (when the Doctor can simply simultaneously exist in different places and time without it). Weird time to jump into the multiverse fad, when it's been worn out for a bit too. Hopefully that's just banter for the commentary.

Click to expand...

But the timeless child explicitly calls out multiple universes

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TheGamingNewsGuy

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Today at 10:53 PM

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#1,527

Parthenios said:

If you're universe has time travel, it can't have a multiverse, and if it has a multiverse it can't have time travel. Doctor Who wisely avoids a multiverse, and Rick and Morty knows to stay away from time travel (with rare exceptions for each).

Not super thrilled with the idea of a Doctor Who multiverse (when the Doctor can simply simultaneously exist in different places and time without it). Weird time to jump into the multiverse fad, when it's been worn out for a bit too. Hopefully that's just banter for the commentary.

Click to expand...

I mean you can have both, we canonically know there is a MV hence Pete's world also the Toymaker lives in another universe

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Lexad

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Today at 10:54 PM

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#1,528

OneTrueJack said:

The more I think about it, the more my biggest problem with the bi-generation is just how poorly explained the whole thing is. The dialogue just seems so...confused?

The Doctor says it's a myth...except they also may have just made the name up in the moment...except the Toymakes also seems to say it was his fault?? Fourteen and Fifteen split apart, except Fifteen still says that Fourteen still has to become him? The recent leaks said that Fifteen gets pulled from the future and the whole thing is a closed time loop, which seems to be an understanding taken from their dialogue in the Tardis (that Fourteen has to mentally heal so Fifteen can be at peace) but again that doesn't line up with the visuals or the actual events. Fifteen doesn't mention being from the future? Or does Fouteen's future experiences feed back into Fifteen...somehow?

And then we have Davies bts comments saying that this is supposed to be a complete shakeup that affects every previous Doctor despite nothing indicating that on screen...but it does line up with Tales from the Tardis so it's clearly something he had been thinking about...what?

It feels like a half-formed idea. Like something major got lost in rewrites.

Click to expand...

It is kind of awful all things considered

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The_Iceman2288

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59 minutes ago

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#1,529

Is The Curator the Fourth Doctor's bigeneration?

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Guppeth

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58 minutes ago

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#1,530

MrKlaw said:

But the timeless child explicitly calls out multiple universes

Yeah but I don't think it was in a "many variations of this universe" kinda way. More a "this universe isn't the whole of reality" way.

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Serif

The Fallen

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57 minutes ago

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#1,531

I don't see why we need retroactive bigeneration as a way to bring back old Doctors. They've been doing that for years already...

liquidtmd said:

I thought that entirely was the implication of what they went with?

YorkshireDaveUK said:

It you watch it again it isn't explained terribly well, hence the rampant speculation here and online. I also took it as what I posted at first, then questioned myself.

They call the 15th Doctor the 'older' one, which imo only makes sense if he literally has more years lived, since if it was just the Doctor 'cloning' himself they'd both be the same age. He also says they're doing rehab 'out of order' - i.e. 15 encourages 14 to get the necessary rest to eventually 'become' him.

But I agree - it's not super clear that it's timey wimey. They could just say 'bigeneration happens when a future regeneration is forcefully brought back' or something something. An unnatural regeneration, where 14 was always going to regenerate to 15, but the Toymaker's meddling meant he showed up much earlier. I find this more preferable to the idea that the Doctor split himself like a starfish and there's a duplicate of him, down to there being duplicate TARDISes.

The_Iceman2288 said:

Is The Curator the Fourth Doctor's bigeneration?

The Curator specifically talks about revisiting faces to the 11th Doctor and has an awareness about the events of DotD based on his remarks about Gallifrey. As far as I know only later Doctors retain the memory when meeting their other selves, so if it were the 4th Doctor he wouldn't remember anything or make a reference to revisiting the old favorites.

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Kinsei

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56 minutes ago

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#1,532

Guppeth said:

Yeah but I don't think it was in a "many variations of this universe" kinda way. More a "this universe isn't the whole of reality" way.

Forgetting the alternate universe from series 2? The one The Doctor, Rose, and Mickey fell into and encountered the new Cybermen?

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Guppeth

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54 minutes ago

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#1,533

Kinsei said:

Forgetting the alternate universe from series 2? The one The Doctor, Rose, and Mickey fell into and encountered the new Cybermen?

Aye that was a parallel universe. And we've seen that kind of thing before, way back in the Pertwee era when everyone in the other universe was a nazi with an evil moustache. But with the Timeless Child, the implication was they came from somewhere outside the known universe.

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liquidtmd

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54 minutes ago

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#1,534

The more I think about it, the more my biggest problem with the bi-generation is just how poorly explained the whole thing is. The dialogue just seems so...confused?

The Doctor says it's a myth...except they also may have just made the name up in the moment...except the Toymakes also seems to say it was his fault?? Fourteen and Fifteen split apart, except Fifteen still says that Fourteen still has to become him? The recent leaks said that Fifteen gets pulled from the future and the whole thing is a closed time loop, which seems to be an understanding taken from their dialogue in the Tardis (that Fourteen has to mentally heal so Fifteen can be at peace) but again that doesn't line up with the visuals or the actual events. Fifteen doesn't mention being from the future? Or does Fouteen's future experiences feed back into Fifteen...somehow?

And then we have Davies bts comments saying that this is supposed to be a complete shakeup that affects every previous Doctor despite nothing indicating that on screen...but it does line up with Tales from the Tardis so it's clearly something he had been thinking about...what?

It feels like a half-formed idea. Like something major got lost in rewrites.

Thinking it through, I really do like that there are some subtle differences between 10 and 14. I feel like the ego and smugness that defined 10 isn't really on display, and he overall seems a lot calmer and less manic. More openly emotional too.

It's still not enough for me to think of it as a fully separate incarnation (it's very much 10 with a lot more life experience) but you can really feel the influences of 11, 12 and 13 in his characterisation, and the dialogue basically says as much.

It's a version of 10 that finally, properly got over himself and has come back to maybe right some wrongs and make a few apologies.

There's nothing worse than when something hugely anticipated with the potential for controversy comes out, and you think it's just okay.

But yeah, I thought it was just okay. Fortunately "just okay" Doctor Who is better than most other things, so I'm happy enough with it.

That new Tardis is incredible though. A little stark for my tastes but the money is on the screen.