That Banjo Business

Hi, in the HTTYD episode "Tone Deaf", you had mentioned that Smotlouts song was a ripoff of a similar song (repetitive melody with increasing pitch). What is the artist/song title of the song that Snotlout was imitating? I remember hearing this on a radio station and have been unable to identify it. Thank you.

Hey there! I'm stoked about this because you're sneaking into my passion for folk music! Be prepared to get 500% more information than you needed! ;)

For starters, I'm glad good search engines exist to refind what you were referencing. In this 2016 post about Tone Death, I commented Hiccup's song started melodically similarly to "When Johnny Comes Marching Home," while later elements of the song sounded familiar, but I was unable to place it. I'm still unable to place it, though it sounds like another old-fashioned band tune.

Since you mentioned a repetitive melody with increasing pitch and that matches When Johnny Comes Marching Home, I'm assuming that's what you were thinking about!

I don't mind that RTTE 'used' When Johnny Comes Marching Home. It wouldn't be a ripoff in my book. It makes music in RTTE boringly unoriginal, but composers closely mirror songs (especially folk songs) constantly, and a composer would know that, if he modeled something off a famous melody like When Johnny Comes Marching Home, it'd be noticed.

I'm not going to assume knowledge or nationality here, though I know many folks online will be well-acquainted with the song. So I'll start by saying there's no artist particular to it. There's technically not even one concrete title since it's a folk song from the United States Civil War, and as with all folk songs, that means variation, variation, variation. As a child, I learned it as The Ants Go Marching One by One! There's another children's variation, The Animals Went in Two by Two.

I have to nerd out and blab on the song since your ask gives me the excuse!

Irish-born immigrant Patrick Gilmore, one of the most well-known bandleaders of his time, is said to have composed When Johnny Comes Marching Home, with lyrics, in 1863 while serving the Union in the US Civil War. It was published on September 26 under the pseudonym Louis Lambert. The song became popular with both Unionists and Confederates, as it sang about the desire to see soldiers return home. However, Gilmore acknowledged he'd adapted an older melody. Where this older melody came from, though, isn't clear-cut.

The best claims I've seen point out the tune was published in July 1863 as Johnny Fill Up the Bowl, arranged by J. Durnal. Well, where did Durnal arrange it from? I've read Johnny Fill Up the Bowl was a popular drinking song with soldiers. But that's not the origin point, either.

There's a branch of this folk tune that's Irish, Johnny, I Hardly Knew Ye, published contemporarily to When Johnny Comes Marching Home. (Hmhmhmhm Gilmore was Irish.) This publication was in 1867 by Joseph B. Geoghegan. I read that was originally under a different melody, though I couldn't find a scan of the sheet music to verify that with my own two eyes.

Tracing the song back further isn't as certain. Folklorists have pointed out melodic similarities to John Anderson, My Jo. That came from Robert Burns circa 1789, but even he was placing lyrics to an earlier melody. His poem was a polite change from bawdy lyrics that existed previously - a song running back to at least 1630. There are tons of variant titles to John Anderson, My Jo, and there are reportedly about forty variations to the tune (everywhere from Sweden... to Wales... to the USA's Johnny).

Going further back then that, there's less consensus. One scholar has suggested a connection to The Three Ravens, which was first referenced in print in 1611, but would be even older than that. Another song that's been proposed is I Am the Duke of Norfolk or Paul's Steeple, first put to print in 1651, but possibly arising from an event that occurred in 1561. Presumably a ballad arose within a week of a fire that burned down a steeple at Old Saint Paul's in London.

Of course, if you listen to something like Paul's Steeple, it's quite different from Johnny I Hardly Knew Ye - but that's the nature of centuries-long folk song evolution, where new sounds, shifting melodies, different lyrics, and more spawn across generations. It's like languages... Old English ain't intelligible to today's English, but there's a direct chain of evolution linking back.

As an American, I can say When Johnny Comes Marching Home is one of the most ubiquitous folk melodies around me. Its references typically retain military connotations -- to give one example, in Guns N' Roses's Civil War.

If you heard it recently on the radio, that's heckin' cool! I know that this song keeps appearing and reappearing in pop culture in different iterations. I'm so removed from pop culture I have no idea what you might've heard that's recent. Maybe now that you know it's citing When Johnny Comes Marching Home helps! Best of luck finding what you heard.

Hi, in the HTTYD episode "Tone Deaf", you had mentioned that Smotlouts song was a ripoff of a similar song (repetitive melody with increasing pitch). What is the artist/song title of the song that Snotlout was imitating? I remember hearing this on a radio station and have been unable to identify it. Thank you.

Hey there! I'm stoked about this because you're sneaking into my passion for folk music! Be prepared to get 500% more information than you needed! ;)

For starters, I'm glad good search engines exist to refind what you were referencing. In this 2016 post about Tone Death, I commented Hiccup's song started melodically similarly to "When Johnny Comes Marching Home," while later elements of the song sounded familiar, but I was unable to place it. I'm still unable to place it, though it sounds like another old-fashioned band tune.

Since you mentioned a repetitive melody with increasing pitch and that matches When Johnny Comes Marching Home, I'm assuming that's what you were thinking about!

I don't mind that RTTE 'used' When Johnny Comes Marching Home. It wouldn't be a ripoff in my book. It makes music in RTTE boringly unoriginal, but composers closely mirror songs (especially folk songs) constantly, and a composer would know that, if he modeled something off a famous melody like When Johnny Comes Marching Home, it'd be noticed.

I'm not going to assume knowledge or nationality here, though I know many folks online will be well-acquainted with the song. So I'll start by saying there's no artist particular to it. There's technically not even one concrete title since it's a folk song from the United States Civil War, and as with all folk songs, that means variation, variation, variation. As a child, I learned it as The Ants Go Marching One by One! There's another children's variation, The Animals Went in Two by Two.

I have to nerd out and blab on the song since your ask gives me the excuse!

Irish-born immigrant Patrick Gilmore, one of the most well-known bandleaders of his time, is said to have composed When Johnny Comes Marching Home, with lyrics, in 1863 while serving the Union in the US Civil War. It was published on September 26 under the pseudonym Louis Lambert. The song became popular with both Unionists and Confederates, as it sang about the desire to see soldiers return home. However, Gilmore acknowledged he'd adapted an older melody. Where this older melody came from, though, isn't clear-cut.

The best claims I've seen point out the tune was published in July 1863 as Johnny Fill Up the Bowl, arranged by J. Durnal. Well, where did Durnal arrange it from? I've read Johnny Fill Up the Bowl was a popular drinking song with soldiers. But that's not the origin point, either.

There's a branch of this folk tune that's Irish, Johnny, I Hardly Knew Ye, published contemporarily to When Johnny Comes Marching Home. (Hmhmhmhm Gilmore was Irish.) This publication was in 1867 by Joseph B. Geoghegan. I read that was originally under a different melody, though I couldn't find a scan of the sheet music to verify that with my own two eyes.

Tracing the song back further isn't as certain. Folklorists have pointed out melodic similarities to John Anderson, My Jo. That came from Robert Burns circa 1789, but even he was placing lyrics to an earlier melody. His poem was a polite change from bawdy lyrics that existed previously - a song running back to at least 1630. There are tons of variant titles to John Anderson, My Jo, and there are reportedly about forty variations to the tune (everywhere from Sweden... to Wales... to the USA's Johnny).

Going further back then that, there's less consensus. One scholar has suggested a connection to The Three Ravens, which was first referenced in print in 1611, but would be even older than that. Another song that's been proposed is I Am the Duke of Norfolk or Paul's Steeple, first put to print in 1651, but possibly arising from an event that occurred in 1561. Presumably a ballad arose within a week of a fire that burned down a steeple at Old Saint Paul's in London.

Of course, if you listen to something like Paul's Steeple, it's quite different from Johnny I Hardly Knew Ye - but that's the nature of centuries-long folk song evolution, where new sounds, shifting melodies, different lyrics, and more spawn across generations. It's like languages... Old English ain't intelligible to today's English, but there's a direct chain of evolution linking back.

As an American, I can say When Johnny Comes Marching Home is one of the most ubiquitous folk melodies around me. Its references typically retain military connotations -- to give one example, in Guns N' Roses's Civil War.

If you heard it recently on the radio, that's heckin' cool! I know that this song keeps appearing and reappearing in pop culture in different iterations. I'm so removed from pop culture I have no idea what you might've heard that's recent. Maybe now that you know it's citing When Johnny Comes Marching Home helps! Best of luck finding what you heard.