who only ever reacts the right way or does the right thing or pleases every single person on earth

May We Meet Again [Happy Ending]

“You have to go back, they’re your people. That’s why I-” she loves you with her lungs, or at least she tries. It comes with a pause, hesitation, an instinctive halt because she is the heda and loving with her lungs is too hard. But she tries. The kiss comes and you wish death and time were one and the same so you could command this moment and make it your home until the stars turn to ash. The kiss is fleeting, and she cries, her tears are tiny little shameful things and it makes her all the more beautiful. All the more human. All the more yours.

When you take off her clothes, clambering inelegantly on top of her, a breath escapes her lips with the contraction of her ribs but she rights herself quickly, as if she only has so many of those little breathless moments to give you and she wants to save every single one and make them last for eternity. No, you decide. This mighty woman, this god among mortals, she is yours and you will take every single one of those breathless gasps and plant them like seedlings until you forever own fields of them.

“I’ve dreamed of this.” you whisper into her neck, and she loves you with her hands so much more proficiently than her lungs, they come up behind you and take the small of your back and rub the tender flesh there. “I’m going to keep you in this bed until the world forgets about you and me.” you promise, and she does that rare and pure smile.

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Original post. Rebuttal.

@vallanoble

Okay. I’m going to start by saying that sympathizing with a character and understanding where they are coming from does not condone or excuse their actions. No where in my post did I say anything about what I thought of Jumin’s actions. I never once expressed any emotion on the subject. I have represented facts presented by the game and the definition of what makes an abuser and how the two do not align. I have yet to see you do the same. All you have managed is to twist my words and act as if my stance some how is an attack to abuse victims.

“Mentally ill can still be abusive.” Okay? I never once said they couldn’t. Nor did I ever use the fact that Jumin is mentally ill as a reason he wasn’t abusive.

Regardless if Jumin reminded you of your own abuse doesn’t inherently make him abusive. Nor does my argument invalidate how you felt during his route. What my argument challenges is your conclusions on the fact. Because that is the point of this discussion. Not how you felt about his route and if that was right or not but if Jumin is abusive or not. So I would thank you to stop twisting my words as a personal attack to you and other victims. I don’t personally care if you don’t like Jumin, you are free to your own opinions. But when you make claims that the game clearly disproves then I have a right to speak up.

You’re referring to Day 10, chat “Return vs Safety.” Here are screenshots of what Jumin says to Zen:

Jumin agrees that Zen is allowed to lecture his actions. That he wants other people’s advice. Abusers shut other people down and reject their advice.


No where does Jumin say Zen is wrong. He takes Zen’s advice to heart and learns from it. Jumin is actively trying to learn how to be better and healthier. He’s not going to be perfect immediately. Growth is a gradual thing. No one changes over night. We as players don’t get to see much of that change since it comes at the end of the game. But we do see glimpses of it. Such as Jumin taking MC’s opinion and advice about what to do with Elizabeth. Jumin listens to MC and values what she has to say. He earnestly wants to make MC happy and have a good relationship. Jumin admits he doesn’t know how to act in a relationship. But he’s willing to learn. This is the exact opposite of how an abuser acts and thinks.

Once again, my friend puts it better:

“Jumin listens to MC and values what she has to say, and ultimately changes his behavior/decision to accomodate her input. Jumin admits there’s a lot he doesn’t know about relationships, but he’s more than willing to learn and work on it. This is the exact opposite of how an abuser acts and thinks.He earnestly wants to make MC happy and have a good relationship, that is why he asks Zen to be honest with him in the first place. He knows there will be things he can’t see from his vantage point in the relationship, and therefore asks for further insight to improve his own behavior. An abuser would never consult an external party regarding how to improve their relationship with the victim, that would hinder their ability to take advantage of them and potentially expose the abusers actions, resulting in the risk of losing the victim.”

“My point about being hypocritical was that you were combatting and deflecting criticism about Jumin’s shitty behavior by turning it on Zen” I honestly have zero idea where you got this notion. As I’ve previously mentioned, my original post about Zen never mentioned anything about Jumin. Nor was it ever implied that because Zen did x it was okay Jumin did y. Nor does Zen’s flaws literally say anything about Jumin’s. Because Zen (or any RFA member) having flaws doesn’t change the fact that Jumin has flaws. I literally never implied that. Again. I or anyone is allowed to criticize other characters. Because they also have flaws. I don’t need to talk about Jumin at all to discuss those flaws from other characters because Jumin is irrelevant to those flaws.

My friend’s better worded response:

“Any comparison you might be drawing between your personal life and Jumin’s route is purely arbitrary, and does nothing to further support your point. If anything, it detracts from it; as it has become clear that your bias has made you disregard crucial facts about his route and what real abuse is. Whether or not you are an abuse survivor isn’t the matter at hand, and you catapulting the discussion from an objective standpoint to a selfish one that revolves around you is neither productive or valid. Neither of us disclosed our histories, even if we have experience with it, and we don’t let those memories or real people cloud our judgement when it comes to a completely separate situation.

With all due respect, the vast majority of your response to this post is irrelevant and responds to nothing we discussed. You twisting facts without giving them the context necessary for the optimal interpretation of events or willing certain things that never happened does not serve to accomplish anything.

Since you couldn’t understand the first time, I will only say it one more time before this conversation becomes meaningless. Though calling it a conversation is too generous, in that your responses have been about you and your personal feelings, and have had nothing to do with what was discussed. Furthermore, you have the audacity to shame others who love a character who is just as problematic as the other characters in Mystic Messenger. Quite frankly I’ve had enough of this. If you don’t want to see the positive qualities of a character because of a personal bias, that’s fine. I can absolutely understand that. But to pretend those positive qualities don’t exist and attack people who do enjoy his presence in their lives for your own satisfaction? That is where I draw the line.

Using the terminology “mentally ill” or “psychologically broken” is not remotely ableist in this context. We are not justifying his behavior with the acknowledgement that his mental state is fragmented, we are simply saying there is a clear reason for his behavior. Furthermore, his behavior is temporary and a direct result of the situation in his route, he is not habitually any of the negative things he exhibits throughout that period of time. I don’t know why that was not clear to you in the hundreds of times Jumin and the entire RFA clarify that point, not to mention it is painfully obvious when comparing his behavior between routes. His conduct is a result of an internal, yawning terror and loneliness that is consuming him. Saying that he has no right to be sensitive or request help in a situation where he is quite literally proverbially drowning, is like saying that a person has no right to exercise fear when they are in a bank that is being robbed at gunpoint. That is absolutely unreasonable. You can’t inflict something on a person and then say “I don’t like the way you are reacting or that you are reacting at all, so you are a vile toxic person” when they react to the situation. Especially when they are being nonviolent and are working not to burden others with their involuntary reactions. That is just impossible and unfair, no human being on this Earth would be capable of such a thing. To expect that of Jumin or any person, whether real or fictional, is just selfish and hurtful. Everybody deserves a level of respect and understanding, the crux of what you have failed to clarify or even mention is that one must strike a balance in any relationship for it to be healthy. It’s okay to rely on each other and ask each other for help, however it must be a give and take. When one partner begins to indiscriminately attack or take exorbitantly from the other partner, that is when the person becomes toxic and overbearing and perhaps, abusive. Again, we already established that in Jumin’s Good Ending, this is not at all the case. What MC gives, she gives freely and with the hope that she can help. And Jumin in return gives her everything he possibly can, he makes sure she is protected and has every possible resource she should have; her every single want and need is attended to. Even her feelings are not spared, in that he profusely apologizes for leaving her alone when he must go to work or attend to something. He is constantly considering her feelings despite the fact that his own are strangling and confusing him, he never ever tells her she is wrong for feeling uncomfortable at any point and always asks her what she is and is not okay with. When he oversteps his bounds by accident or beyond the bounds of his control, he earnestly apologizes and works to never do it again, no matter how slight the offense. That is not the behavior of an inconsiderate, abusive, or manipulative human being; he truly cares about her and tries to reciprocate everything that MC gives him. Real abusive human beings don’t give a damn about how you feel, and will tell you anything you want to hear to buy them time before they hurt or make you uncomfortable again to revel in the power and control they have over you.

It’s not a matter of excuses, so please do not accuse us of waving away whether or not Jumin is abusive or manipulative. Both of those negative behaviors are defined by the intent of the perpetrator, which is to inherently put the victim at a disadvantage for their own benefit. Jumin’s motivation is never to subjugate MC; rather, he wants her by his side as an equal. He never invalidates or ignores her judgement, her predilections, her values, her decisions, etc. He always lets her have an active role in her own life, whether it be in his route or another. He may offer his insight, but he never tells her how or what to feel/do. He never warps her perception of reality, or claims that he knows better at any point.

As to us shaming a victim’s experiences, please stop immediately. Not only are you putting words into both of our mouths, you are accusing us of something we never did or desire to do. We never, ever, invalidated the feelings of real abuse victims. And for you to force that into the conversation as a mechanism to weaken our argument is both ineffective and offensive. Just because you might have taken erroneous offense because of a recent wound you feel has been inflicted on you by a separate party does not mean you have the right to decide our feelings or intentions or the actual content of our response.

And with all due respect, you completely twisted Jumin’s words yet again to serve your own purposes. Certainly, any dialogue presented can be interpreted in a number of ways, but judging by both the context of the conversation AND Jumin’s actual characterization, this was not Jumin refusing to acknowledge his criticism. He was objecting to the fact that Zen was deciding MC’s feelings for her, and that Zen was claiming Jumin did not care about her feelings at all and that was his primary motivation for making decisions before consulting her. Jumin was protesting to the fact that Zen was invalidating BOTH of their feelings with his erroneous interpretation of events, and sticking his nose where it quite frankly did not belong. To express concern for the progression of their relationship is one thing (and there is a limit to how many times that remains appropriate and courteous, Zen absolutely overshoots that limit), to accuse Jumin of deliberately mistreating her and demanding they separate immediately without knowing the full extent of what happened or consulting BOTH of them is another thing entirely.

And once again, in regards to your post, the control you’re referring to is not the kind of control an abuser exhibits. Jumin has lived a life in which he has always been in a position to make decisions for others because the responsibility fell to him, and as a result he is accustomed to taking initiative. This does not mean that he will completely disregard the wishes of his partner to do what he thinks is right, and the minute Zen mentions that Jumin must take MC’s view into consideration he does not retaliate. An abuser would be furious that somebody was questioning their ability to look after the victim and giving the victim the liberating idea that they have a right to decide their own lives. Instead, he immediately concedes that he had no idea he was doing that if he was, and that he would work to be more inclusive in the future. That is somebody who is actively trying to change, not somebody who doesn’t care about what the other person wants and quite frankly does not care to accommodate them to maintain their control and the advantage. Thus, your accusation remains invalid. You are using one connotation of the word control and applying it to every circumstance, even when it simply does not fit.

Again, your claim of hypocrisy is just inaccurate. The original post spoke nothing at all of Jumin’s behavior, if you read the entire post carefully, they are purely discussing Zen’s behavior in Jumin’s route. NOTHING ELSE. Nobody mentioned Jumin’s behavior to begin with or justified it using Zen’s misdemeanors in any way, so neither of us can remotely understand why this is an enduring accusation. They are not legitimate arguments, in that you are using two separate situations and forcing them together to validate your hatred of a character that is not inherently abusive or manipulative, no matter how much you might want it to be so.”

Since you’ve turned this into throwing accusations and words into our mouths instead of using in game evidence to support your claim I’m gonna end the discussion here. I will not be responding anymore.

Have a good day.