villain's discourse

can yall calm down and listen for a bit

look i know a lot of people are upset about lemonteaflower & markiplier being involved in Villainous BUT: can we please not kill this project because of two (2) people that were involved with it

As a mexican girl who will probably study animation: if yall kill Villainous’ shot at becoming a full show im gonna scream into the void for years. the animation industry over here is dead enough as it is just let us have this??????

Hey guys listen

So about that Villanos discourse
I get it
A lot of people don’t like Markiplier because of that whole pewdiepie drama
But that is NO reason to avoid the show
It’s an absolutely amazing show and yknow what makes it better!!! It’s made by Mexican people!!!!
And yknow 5.0.5. doesn’t really speak?? So it’ll just be Mark making weird noises
You guys are really going to avoid this show for /that/???

And now the whole lemonteaflower drama
Yes, they did Really Really Bad Things
But hey guess what?
THEY APOLOGIZED!!! HOLY SHIT CAN YOU BELIEVE IT??? Just because someone did something wrong before, doesn’t mean they can’t redeem themselves and try to become a better person
And again!!! They’re just a storyboard artist, you’re really gonna let this ruin the show for you???
If you’re not going to watch the show bc of these things, you are truly a terrible person
So many people worked hard on this, and what makes this more important is that they aren’t white!! Let us have something nice
You guys are so stupid
‘Oh well this problematic person is gonna be working on it which means it’s a problematic thing :////’
We’re all problematic in one way or another, but that shouldn’t get in the way of enjoying the show!!

Unless it’s like some Attack on Titan kind of shit, in which the entire series is supposed to be a Really Really Bad and Disgusting Message put into it, watch the damn show for what it is and not who’s on it

Good Villainous criticism:
-lemonteaflower is reprehensible and should be fired

Bad Villainous criticism:

-oH nO tHe NeW OnCeLeR!!!1 dEvIaNtArT!!1! hOt ToPiC!!!!1!!1! sOoOoO cRiNgY!!!!1!!

-kill the entire show without making any attempt to explain what the actual problem is to CN or the creator, disregarding the hard work of everyone else involved and discouraging the development of new mexican cartoons

-lying about lemonteaflower being the creator, both stealing credit from Alan Ituriel and discouraging people from taking any real action to get her fired

I think one of the things that bothers me most about the “Cool motive, still murder” response to posts about antagonists is that it comes with a refusal to differentiate between someone who is redeemable and someone who is not.

A character who does horrible things out of misunderstanding, or in response to trauma and terrible circumstances, has still done horrible things, but is probably more deserving of a redemption arc and a shot at atonement than a character whose villainy stems from simple sadism. A character whose motivations are understandable and relatable is someone who we can see ourselves reflected in; we want to see them redeemed, because if we can see ourselves making the same mistakes as they do were we in their circumstances, we want to believe that we too would be capable of earning forgiveness and being better. This ability to project and put ourselves in the shoes of another person – even a fictional person – stems from our capacity for empathy and compassion, and our ability to recognize how imperfect we ourselves are.

By contrast, characters whose genuine maliciousness and glee at suffering are unfathomable and alien to us are seen as monstrous. At a certain point, we no longer wish for redemption in these characters, because we no longer see ourselves in them – or want to see ourselves in them. 

Motive matters. It matters in the legal system (premeditated murder is classified differently from crimes of passion) and it matters in our understanding of morality. This isn’t to say the means justify the ends, but morality isn’t absolute, isn’t black and white, and shouldn’t be separated from the nuances of context and the inherent beautiful messiness of human beings.

so anyway I love Jared Kleinman and it would be incredible if when you defend him from being more than a meme or a joke you don’t bring up and feelings he may or may not have for Evan and instead focus on the canon fact that his deep insecurities and personal issues caused him to be rude and mean to those around him, including to Evan. I understand that he was lonely and deeply insecure but that doesn’t actually excuse the fact that he mocked Evan, a boy he knew was anxious and had no other friends, as well as Connor, a boy he knew at least had anger issues and no friends. He also encouraged Evan to lie to the Murphy’s (although that doesn’t excuse Evan by any means) and attempted to profit off of Connor’s suicide multiple times for selfish reasons (the Connor buttons and demanding money from Evan to help with the emails). Not to mention, despite him making it perfectly clear to Evan that he wasn’t really his friend in act one, when act two came around he was eager to make Evan feel guilty for leaving him behind. Again, none of this excuses Evan and his poor decisions, but it also means that Jared shouldn’t be excused for his actions either.

Goro Fans: I think Goro is an interesting character despite his flaws, though I understand he isn’t everyone’s cup of tea, and I respect their opinion.

Goro Haters:

batman villain social media would honestly be so wild??? like it’s Frowned Upon to follow supervillains on twitter and instagram but i’m willing to bet they have some of the largest followings in the DCU and take all the best selfies. u know harley is the most subscribed youtuber for beauty and fashion tutorials. there is a lot of batfam/villain discourse on social media because these Receipts!!! also just like lots of drunk videos of villains dancing to ke$ha songs while throwing money in the air. batfam is constantly annoyed because they cannot top this, they’ve tried asking bruce for a couple thousand to make it rain but he’s like ‘we are not sinking to their level’


I’ve been working on a post about this sort of thing for a while but then RM knocked it out of the park on Twitter, not unexpectedly, so.

ETA: @lettersfromtitan​, THAT’s your Tumblr handle! I knew I followed you but I couldn’t remember the name.

here’s the thing about villain fandom: there’s nothing wrong with liking villains!! there’s nothing wrong with appreciating a complex, well-written, evil (or even just morally grey) character!!! no one is saying that you aren’t allowed to like villains, whether you like them because you think they’re interesting, or because you’re intrigued by their backstory, or just because you think they look cool! there’s nothing wrong with the villain of the series being your favorite character!!

when things become problematic is when you start making excuses for that villain’s actions, or even going so far as to say “I don’t think this character did anything wrong.” 

I’m gonna use kylo ren as an example, because he’s one of my favorite villains and because he’s a character most people are familiar with. I love kylo ren!! I like his aesthetic, I love how he and rey serve as foils for each other, I love the way that the filmmakers showed him being torn between his family and his thirst for power, before eventually choosing power (obviously). but, as much as I love the character, I still recognize that he’s a really, really bad person. like, part-of-the-leadership-of-an-order-of-literal-space-nazis bad, literally-aided-in-a-mass-genocide bad, murdered-an-entire-temple-full-of-children bad. he’s evil, and just because I like the character doesn’t mean I’m going to make excuses for him or try to pretend he isn’t a monster. because he is. 

and yet, I see a lot of star wars fans on tumblr doing exactly that. there’s a whole sub-fandom of people who identify as “first order sympathizers.” (again, the first order are LITERALLY NAZIS.) I see so many people, especially young, female fans, trying to explain away kylo’s villainy or rewrite canon to make him out as some kind of victim, even though that goes against everything we’ve seen so far in the movies. 

I think a big reason for that is because these fans are afraid that if they openly admit to liking a villain, people will think that they agree with that villain’s ideals or think that their actions were justified. and, ironically, in trying to prevent people from thinking that they sympathize with an “evil” character, they end up doing exactly that – making excuses and trying to justify the atrocious things the character has done, rather than just taking a step back and saying, “okay, I know this guy is evil, but I still like the character.” 

so I’m going to say it again: there’s nothing wrong with liking villains!!! these characters are works of fiction, and fiction is not real life. you can be a good person and like villains. I promise it doesn’t make you “problematic” or “bad” or whatever, as long as you’re able to admit to yourself that, even though you like this character, they are evil and have done evil things. you’re still allowed to enjoy them! 

i hate villain discourse thats basically like “liking villains was okay when they were queer coded but now theres no excuse because theyre all representative of white boys with little self control and anger issues and violent impulses and and and” mental illness. that is the term you’re looking for here. villains are coded as mentally ill. mentally ill people are oppressed. 

like i don’t think fictional characters need to represent a sufficiently marginalized real life group in order for people to be ““allowed”” to like them but even if you’re working within that paradigm, most villains-and in particular the villains whose fans take the most shit-are coded as mentally ill. and a lot of those fans specifically identify with those villains because they themselves are mentally ill. 

discourse i fucking hate the sudden weird warped attitude on this hellsite abt new things where no one wants to admit that its just rehashed cringe culture

like Every Single Fucking Time something new comes out tht people are interested in theres a slew of “WAIT FOR TUMBLR TO RUIN THIS!!!!” and “[insert character] IS THE NEW SANS UNDERTALE/ONCELER” and other shit like that and its like. fuck

these r also the same fuckin people who talk abt hating mainstream cringe culture n its like wtf do yall think ur doing !!!!! all youre doing is making people embarrassed to like a thing or a character and scaring them off from getting into it bc they dont wanna be seen as weird or cringey !!! thats literally all youre doing !! its not cute or funny or #relatable !! like fuck man let people enjoy things !!!