thor meta

I was doing some giffing and basically re-watched Thor for the purpose (like it was a sacrifice, haha), and I just realised something that gives me new heartache.

Look at this gif:

When Thor broke the Bifrost, he and Loki went flying into the air and would have both fallen into the Void if Odin hadn’t caught them. Thor had no idea - he just couldn’t know - that Odin was going to grab Thor’s leg and save both brothers from dying/becoming lost in the space-time continuum. Still, Thor grabbed Gungnir, for which Loki was trying to reach in some desperate attempt to save his life. Thor still wanted to save Loki, after everything that had happened, and Thor didn’t have much hope, but he saw Loki falling underneath him, trying to get a hold of anything, and they both went for the staff, Loki to save himself, Thor to save Loki, even when he had no way of knowing it was even going to work. But fuck, this hurts the man. Thor tried to be there for his little brother when everything was literally and figuratively falling apart around them, and by the Norns, they might both die, but they’ll die holding that staff together and Thor will die trying to save Loki.

I’m okay. I’m not okay.

LOOK. Despite all the pushing, grabing and shoving, Thor NEVER beats Loki.  [Gif from my post here]
Yes they fight each other all the time, and there are lots of punching and hitting between the two, but when you think about it, never once you see Thor beats Loki up even when he is given the chance (like the scene above). 

He never starts a fight with Loki, every single time it’s Loki who picks the fight, verbally and physcially. Thor would defend himself and fight back, but only when Loki is armed, not defenseless. Those fights that took place in Thor and the Avengers, you can see the two of them were pretty much equal, Thor was undoubtedly stronger but Loki wasn’t weak, and he had Odin’s spear in his hand, and the power from the tesseract.

But when Loki is vulnerable, Thor never takes advantage of him. 

when Thor finally got the upper hand in the fight, instead of bashing Loki with his hammer, like what he did to most people, he placed it on Loki’s chest to immobilize him. Thor was mad, because his brother was fighting him for a reason he couldn’t understand, but he didn’t want to hurt Loki, he wanted to talk to him, he wanted to understand. 

Thor tossed Loki hard onto the ground, but that was it. With all his anger and pain (having to bear the ‘death’ of his brother for I dont know how long only to find out he’s alive and trying to subjugate Earth), he could at least give Loki a punch in the face and no one could blame him. Yet he didn’t, he still wanted to talk him through, he still wanted to take him home.

Both of them were suffering from the loss of their mother, they both felt responsible of her death. And when Loki childishly blaming Thor for like everything, Thor lost his temper. Though, he couldn’t bring himself to take it on Loki, especailly when Loki was handcuffed and he was absolutlely defenseless, so he stopped.

I’ve seen many films and shows featuring two brothers, brothers always fight, and it’s very common that one ends up beating up the other.
But I doubt could Thor ever bring himself to lay a hand on Loki, and in fact, I wonder could he ever win a fight over Loki, because soon as he gains the upper hand, he stops.

After Loki fell, Odin said “No.” He looked like he meant it.  He didn’t want Loki to fall.  

Why then did he not pull them back up? I think that he couldn’t. His arm is wavering, they’re swinging around, and then there’s the simple fact that there’s no reason why he wouldn’t have if he could–or, at the very least, no reason why he wouldn’t have pulled Thor up.

Loki realized the situation, I think, and saw that he was going to fall no matter what happened next. And by this point I think he realizes that Thor isn’t going to let go. Loki’s slipping down Gungnir, but considering how usually he can do complicated physical things, he probably could have gotten a better grip if he’d elected to. 

So his choices are to fall involuntarily, quite possibly taking Thor with him (after all, if Odin can’t pull them up, he can’t hold them forever); or to let go.

He doesn’t want an undignified death, falling because Odin couldn’t hold on. Also, remember when he made an illusion and Thor essayed to rescue it? Remember how after that, Loki called him “brother,” a few minutes after saying that he never was his brother? And now, this situation has happened because Thor did the same thing again. Each time, Loki came a little more out of his madness, and now, he does not want Thor to die.

So when he says,  “I could have done it, Father! I could have done it! For you. For all of us,” it’s his goodbye note.

“No, Loki,”–No, you couldn’t have done it? Or no, don’t let go? Loki thought Odin meant the former, but was he right?

And Loki stares at Odin, weeping, and Thor has foresight–”Loki, no!”

Loki falls.

And Odin can pull Thor up.

@smol-overlord Since you are watching this.

How do I, personally, feel about Thor now?


That about describes it.

And I do blame the writers, yes. Because I remember when they started saying “Thor has no compassion left for Loki in this film” and I went “Uh-oh.” I knew that was gonna go badly. And it did. Oh, it did.

It’s weird but it brings me back to thinking about the way I, versus most people I know, roleplay. I don’t plan much out because I want the character reactions to be organic and ‘flow’ like the behaviors of real people. Watching what happens to Thor and Loki as they go through various writers and directors, I can see pretty clearly where the characters are trying to be 'themselves’ and being pulled and jerked in different directions by outside forces. I guess that’s why I see it the way I do.

The actors know their characters, and they are the only reason the characters have any consistency from film to film at all. Unfortunately that means lots of inconsistency WITHIN the film, and it gets worse every movie, as the storyline diverges from its roots. So we get, from my viewpoint anyway:

First film: Shakespearean setting. Thor is rash and reckless and charismatic and enabled by his friends. He takes Loki for granted but when he does turn his gaze on him, I see love. And Loki adores him above all. Loves him so much that he’ll call him out when his 'friends’ won’t. Wants to please Odin, as well, even when Odin betrays him. Everything he does in the film is with good intentions, even as he starts to snap - or out of very much justified anger, as when he sends the Destroyer after traitors while acting as regent. Finally, when he falls, I feel Thor’s grief. And I believe it then. It sells.

Second film: LOLWHAT. Loki is now a manic cackling villain! Thor alternates between desperately wanting to be best bros again and throwing him around like a dog with a rat! At no point does he seem to wonder what the hell brought them to this! Also previously installed 'no kill humans’ switch seems to be malfunctioning again! In this film, Thor is not wildly OOC, but he is handled very clumsily and erratically. Loki meanwhile is fucking gone. Only Tom’s wounded eyes and expressive face still convey the character from the first film. That’s a phenomenon that will become even more painfully apparent in the next film - not with Loki, but with his brother.

Third film: Game of Thrones in space. Everyone is emotionally dead. Odin’s a dick (that at least makes sense, based on what we know of his sons) and more disturbingly, no one - even Frigga - seems to raise too many objections beyond “Please don’t kill our son, dear.” Thor is fucking gone now. He’s being written so flat with regards to Loki, it’s a wonder the scenes carry at all. From desperately and repeatedly trying to reach out to his brother even in the midst of battle (whatever one can say about Avengers-Thor, he was sure as hell persistent) to zero fucks given. Not even a kind word after they suffer a horrendous mutual loss, even while gazing upon evidence of his brother’s grief. Victim-blaming right and left. At least now he’s questioning their Horribledad[TM], but not for Loki’s sake, and even then he won’t admit one whit of Loki’s ever being right or his own responsibility for, well, EVERYTHING. Going by the script alone, one wouldn’t get the impression that these two had ever been brothers, let alone for over a thousand years before a very very recent break.

Meanwhile Loki’s the noblest and most sympathetic character in the film by far, and dozens of critics without the benefit of fangirl goggles see it and call it. We are given the tale of a man done wrong and given no chance to atone for it even if he knew what he was atoning for (which he doesn’t, because he only did as he was taught, and it only became 'bad’ after he did it). He is given no compassion from his captors save for one, and she still sides against him, tries to manipulate him in a really subtle yet poisonous way when he needs her most. His brother, aiding and abetting in the injustice done to him, shows him not a shred of mercy at the height of his grief. He’s alone. He’s promised a life of incarceration after his usefulness comes to an end. The last person who even tried to be kind to him is gone. An evil tyrant sits in judgment over his fate, and the only one now who MIGHT be his ally has betrayed him already and cannot be trusted. So he commits several very heroic acts, while cleverly stringing a plan that will get him out of this shitty situation AND get the tyrant off the throne for good.

And he’s the 'villain’.

We have now come full circle in ridiculousness. We are being sold the above as bad guy and his aforementioned heartless captor as good, and you can imagine the kind of PR it takes to pull that off (actually you don’t have to; it’s all over the Internet, and you won’t find anything more unsettlingly biased outside of WWII propaganda). There is almost no trace of Thor left in this Thor, just as Loki in the previous film bore almost no trace of Loki. (Funny enough, HE’S a lot easier to swallow this time, possibly because he’s no longer being forced into a role he never fit well in the first place.) Only in Hemsworth’s sad eyes is here any evidence that Thor loves his brother, or indeed feels anything toward anyone except rage. It isn’t shown in his words, isn’t shown in his actions. Because those are at the mercy of Plot[TM], Feige’s Master Plan (“Woohoo a villain people LIKE! Hey, that means I can use him as the bad guy again and again!”) and the artistic vision of the man who brought you Nauseatingly Dysfunctional Families: The Show. No wonder Thor doesn’t fare well.

And as a fan - who honestly loved him in the first film, and thought he had his moments even when fumbled about in the second - I find the whole thing depressing and disheartening. I feel betrayed, not by Thor, but by the people who hold his fate in their hands. And I feel like he’s been betrayed by them, too - at least as badly now as Loki was last film. I think that’s probably why I try to defend him here, because I can’t ACTUALLY protect him from what’s being done. I can’t protect any of them.

I wanted my caring if wary older brother. I didn’t get that. Because caring isn’t 'cool’. Compassion isn’t badass. Hollywood has embraced modern cynicism while remaining a nightmare of backwards values from a far more troubled era, where 'might makes right’ was widely accepted and to be a 'real man’ meant having power over others and not falling prey to soft, womanly emotions. This latest film reeks of those values, paved over with the cynicism and sarcastic humor that makes them easier for modern audiences to swallow.

…Given how traditionally 'masculine’ (though just as harmful, in truth, to men as to women) many of those values are, as well as the 'compassion is weakness’ vibe, I have to wonder if this isn’t at least partly a result of those in charge underestimating how many female fans the franchise has - and having no idea what they might like to see in a film. “Tom Hiddleston? And beautiful men in general, making intense eyes at each other. That’ll satisfy them, right? Or at least they can take that as a consolation prize because really, they’re girls and this is a Marvel movie, they’re lucky they’re getting any fanservice at all.”

I guess that’s cynical of me, but it’s really hard not to see from here. It feels like it’s mostly women - and men who are sensitized to what are still widely regarded as 'feminine’ values like mercy and empathy, particularly those who’ve fallen victim to bullying and injustice themselves (my husband comes to mind) - see the problem in Loki’s treatment or think deeper than “he’s the villain, end of story.”

Role Reversals and Defied Conventions: Thor’s Subversions of the Superhero Genre

Abstract: This analysis seeks to explore how the Thor film is subverts and reverses many standard conventions of the Superhero Origin Story film in relation to its protagonist, Thor, and its antagonist, Loki. The specific conventions discussed are: the hero being socially isolated, the hero discovering a previously unknown past or heritage, the hero developing new powers and responsibilities, and the hero within a battle of good versus evil.

The analysis in its entirety with accompanying gifs follows under the break.

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Over-analysis of the Loki scene in the Thor: Ragnarok teaser trailer

Who: Loki, two warriors who look like they are from Sakaar, and a bunch of people who look like peasants. 

What: Loki and the Sakaarian warriors are opposing one or more enemies who are not visible. Loki whirls his daggers up into the air and then catches them.

When: The warriors and the daggers look like they are from Sakaar, so this seems to be after Loki and Thor return from there. They must have brought assorted allies with them. Some of the statuary beside the path is damaged; likely this is also after Hela has attacked Asgard.

Where: Asgard. A road/pathway. Perhaps a way out of the city.

How/Why: To put it all together, Loki is standing against an enemy, with two Sakaarian warriors for backup, blocking that enemy from continuing down the pathway and harming the Asgardian peasants. The enemy is either tall or in the air, since Loki is looking up slightly; and is formidable, or he wouldn’t bother with tossing his knives to indicate that he is not afraid of him/her. Since Hela is tall, often in the air, and formidable, I think it’s possible that he is facing Hela here.

@elly-hiddlesherloki @thorandlokibrothersforeternity @smol-overlord

I saw a post saying Loki is the villain playing the victim.
Loki is the villain playing the victim.
Loki is the villain PLAYING THE VICTIM.
Loki who after trying to commit suicide because he felt unloved and unwanted,who had been brain washed to hate his kind only then to find he is one of them.Loki whose own father told him he should have died as a baby because he didn’t fill the purpose he brought him to do so.Loki who was threatened to be tortured and feel eternal pain if he didn’t succeed in his task.Loki who struggled not to cry but eventually did when Thor told him he can stop this,because he knew what would happen to him if he failed.Loki who has only cried once in front of another person.
He may has done a lot of things but trying earn pitty from others was never one of these things.

I know Loki is smart and loves reading but there’s gotta be other ways to show that then have him constantly reading books.

How about:

1. Loki does research, experiments, has a lab, lots of notes. Detailed, quickly scrawled lab notes.

2. Calligraphy, stationary collections, various colored inks.

3. Subscription to scientific or literary magazines, maybe he even writes some articles for them.

4. An interest in education and public education in general.

5. Collections of antiques or magical objects. Vague references and symbolism to texts or poetry that no one else really gets. His own language or secret codes.

6. An interest in equations, geometry, drawing details for inventions for his research, things only he would know he needs. Maybe he has contacts across the realms in the sciences etc. maybe he is well known in those circles.

No but seriously who else has feelings about this?

…Is that fighting, Thor? Do you think of that as fighting? Only one of you is hitting and the other has his hands chained together, tell me, IS THAT FIGHTING?

…Is that what you would’ve called it in the old days, too? “We fought last night.” Funny, Thor, there’s not a mark on you. Somehow I don’t think it counts as a glorious battle.

Then I hate my imagination for giving me prompts like this: ‘Who needs makeup and long sleeves when you have the power of illusion?'  Convenient, that. And of course you can drop it if need be, at the opportune dramatic moment. “Now you see me, brother” indeed.


as much as i love romantic pairings, avengers queer gen is so important.

trans man sam wilson who transitioned after being discharged from the military and now advocating for trans people to be allowed to serve.

agender natasha romanoff who treats gender like any other outfit, ready to be slipped on whenever it suits them and discarded when it is no longer needed.

bisexual steve rogers knowing intimately how scary being alone and thinking you’re wrong is, and using his fame to make sure no queer kid ever feels the same way again.

queer bucky barnes who isn’t totally sure what to identify as, he just knows who he loves, and he’s fine not needing a specific label

demisexual bruce banner who after the creation of the hulk takes a long time too feel comfortable enough to even entertain the possibility of being sexually intimate in the future.

pansexual thor who’s kinda confused by this midgardian obsession with sexuality is about. people are attractive, why limit yourself to just one gender?

queer avengers

Heh. I feel like I keep writing the same basic “My Problems with Thor the Movie” and “But I Love Thor the Character” posts over, and over, and over, and over again. 


Thank you for your patience, followers.

River Song Is Not A Companion

I feel people don’t quite get any more just how special River Song is. This is understandable as her first appearance happened a whopping seven years ago. To those who have started watching the show after that, River must be one of those characters that the Doctor once knew and whom he is fond of because he has known them for so long. But River is so, so special and her introduction was such an important turning point to the show. 

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what’s interesting about the symbolism of thor in ragnarok is mirroring what dc is doing with superman ….. in that they are trying to break a god and deconstruct the meaning of what it means to BE a god. dc uses the symbolism of the “god is dead” as well as luthor’s metaphors through his paintings & religious babble, while ragnarok implies it by destroying one of the most powerful weapons in the marvel universe (which is later reconstructed anyways, but this is literally….for breaking thor as a god so ….. they needed it in there since mjolnir is an extension of himself), cutting his hair, capturing him, breaking him, etc. 

and in the unworthy thor, thor’s current run, they are doing this trope AGAIN, stripping him of mjolnir because “gods are vain”, cutting his hair, making thor realize what mortality truly means ………. idk as much as i first was so appalled with some of the direction marvel has been going with his character in both 616 and the mcu, the more i think about THIS the more i kind of love the motifs & philosophies that they are trying to pull because it’s so subtle. 

why i also don’t really LIKE it tho is because they’ve been using thor as a slapstick for awhile now, they’ve BEEN depowering him and underestimating him, forgetting him and treating him like a joke. so it makes the message of stripping him and deconstructing his divinity that much less meaningless as a plot arc, and more like a “oh look what they’re doing to thor again lmfao” kind of thing …… which is kind of cheap ……..


YOU ARE UNWORTHY of these realms. you’re unworthy of your title. you’re unworthy of the loved ones you have betrayed.

In Norse mythology, the giants are set up as diametrically opposed to the gods: the evil balancing out divine moral rightness. Loki’s one wish – to be worthy – is an impossible one because he cannot honestly imagine a world where he is both worthy and fully himself, and so he doesn’t try. He conflates his Jötunn heritage and his unworthiness, convinced that all his chaos and cruelty and madness are simply in his nature. And if he can’t be Thor’s equal in this respect – if worthiness will always be out of his reach – then he will settle for watching the world burn. He will do incredible evil, because he’s a master of it. Because he can be great, even if he cannot be good.

So, I was looking at that gif of Loki sitting by Jeff Goldblum’s character in the new Thor Ragnarok trailer. You know, this one:

Originally posted by lokis-quinn

He doesn’t look like he’s enjoying himself. He actually looks really, really nervous. I mean check out his body language. He’s leaning forward, biting his nails, clenching his fist, shooting surreptitious glances over at Goldblum. 

In my mind, that could be attributed to a few things (for example, simple concern for his big brother, who’s being forced to fight to the death in a gladiatorial arena). But my fanfiction-soaked thoughts can’t help but immediately come up with ways that Loki could be imperiled in this scenario. 

Therefore, I have a theory. I actually have to admit that it’s more of a fanfiction idea, because there’s no way in hell Marvel would do this. But a girl can dream. :) :) :)

So, Thor is thrown to Goldblum’s planet after his fight with Hela in New York, presumably to get him out of the way. Loki is also present during that fight, as proven by the eagle-eyed giffers of Tumblr, so I can only assume that he would be transported there as well. So how does Thor end up in the gladiator ring, and Loki, in fine clothes watching the match with Goldblum? 

The brothers would have to be brought before Goldblum, so he could decide their fate. In this scenario, Goldblum would “ooh” and “aah” over Thor’s powerful physique, but take one look at Loki, who’s not nearly as physically imposing as his brother, and deem him to be useless. He would order the guards to get rid of him.

Thor would of course start bashing heads in a bid to free himself and his brother. Loki, his magic having been blocked by inhibitors, would also try to fight back, to no avail. He would quickly be subdued by armed guards, and removed from Thor’s sight.

Goldblum would tell Thor that he would fight, or his brother would be killed painfully, and publicly. Thor would give in, and allow his hair to be shaved off, and his armor to be replaced. Loki would be given new armor which more closely fits Goldblum’s tastes. It would explain why he’s wearing a yellow cape in this scene; it reflects the colorful clothing and decor surrounding him. And then, Loki would be placed on display in a very public setting, to watch the games and to remind Thor of his obligation.

So, that’s what I think. Thor is fighting to save Loki from suffering a painful public execution. 

Take note, Marvel. You still have time to do reshoots…  ;)          

You know what else I love about Thor?

Every single one of the Avengers is unnerved and deeply discomfited by the visions that Wanda puts in their heads, they all handle things differently, some better than others, some worse than others.

But Thor, even having been shown his darkest fears (the deaths of his people, that he led them there, to Hel, rather than to Valhalla), does what not even any of the others do:

HE GOES BACK TO FACE THOSE NIGHTMARES AGAIN, he puts himself through all that dark shit again (in a process that is painful and difficult) because there’s something more he can learn from it.

Thor doesn’t sit idly by or try to forget what he saw or dismiss it as nothing but a nightmare.  He fucking faces it right the fuck face on:

Like a fucking god.