I'm behind on meta so please feel free to ignore this if it's been already talked about, but I thought it was interesting how - as weird or sort of unusual that fight scene was with dean and the demon, or at least i don't recall anything like it - by making it look sexual and obviously violent, it kinda parallelled Mary's struggle with that asshole hunter. What weirds me out is that it puts Sam & Lucifer in the same role of saviour which is never good, but maybe they just wanted to connect them
like that bc they both want a connection w/ Jack, maybe even see themselves in Jack, who knows lucifer;s side, since they were unable to provide dialogue 4 him besides repeating how Mary is weak bc she gets tired & is all humany and they need to get out and he might need her. ANYWAY, shitty writing aside, do u think it was a parallel and if so what are they trying to say? Was it to show that maybe Sam’s intentions aren’t the purest either, not in an evil way but like bc he’s so intent on getting Mary back that he might be blind - for different reasons than Dean - to Jack as a person? He’s trying so hard & almost doesn’t even entertain the thought that Jack might be corrupted by his power at some point, or by Hell which we see almost happens bc of lack of info. Sam seems to hold on to as much hope as he can, while Dean is at the opposite end of the spectrum (hmm I wonder who could balance it out?). But what do you think of Sam having been weirdly aligned w/ Hell like, he even unwittingly gave the info to Amodeous about how powerful Jack is, while Dean, without even trying, seems to be Jack’s role model for Good (& I love how Jack has a Dean decoder built in) and he even throws him a Bible to read (which, if presented without commentary can be risky, he’s better off reading the Supernatural books, but still, it’s the Holy Book).
Hi! What an ask :D Also I am ALSO so behind on meta so I’m just going to answer this like it’s all new to us, sorry everyone who has already been over this, me and anon are going through this together ;)
To go through chronologically because I’m super tired so I need to break this down…
Yeah, awesome weird fight scene. I loved it - Tink said something about them having a new fight coordinator? There’s been 2 incredible fights back to back for Dean so far and I’m loving it. This one was great I think with the director as well - I feel like he of all of them takes liberties with BL scripts and puts in extra nuance and missing implications that their writing didn’t pick up… He’s 99% responsible for the crypt scenes for example, and in 11x21 included ALL the nuance that made the longing retcon magic happen between Amara, Cas and Dean, just by visual implications. He also super digs the prison imagery and bunker porn and generally using the locations really well… I don’t know much about all the different directors but I’ve learned that seeing his name means it’s time to get excited and nerdy about what I’m going to SEE :D
So yeah, good combo. It made a great parallel with Mary’s fight which I liked first of all just for the Mary and Dean paralleling, especially as she needs connections back to the main storyline just for asserting she still exists, because as you say it was pretty bad writing especially around Mary in that episode, where she just dragged herself around after Lucifer and needed saving. Putting Dean in a parallel situation somewhat defuses it in overall handling of the nonsense, even if I don’t like that it was written this way in the first place. I have still not had time to explore my dash much but I hope people have been making posts about the parallels to female fight scenes, especially Black Widow in the marvel movies… In my notes I just commented he was straddling people to death and left it at that (even though that obviously wasn’t what he was doing - it was a shorthand for the fight style :P) but really it also mirrored 10x15 and Dean in that weirdly charged scenario with whatisface, where he got straddled and had the worm coming out Cole’s throat while leaning over him etc and it put Dean in a very submissive role to all that. In the same way, having Dean fight back by getting his legs around the guy and ending the fight literally *cowering* on a bed with the demon standing over him with the phallic knife, was a fascinating staging of power dynamics where he actually looked more vulnerable than Mary did.
I think Lucifer nice guy’d it - he said he needed Mary and when she wouldn’t go along with him, immediately started whining more and hurt Mary just to make her complacent and remind her that he was still in charge and more powerful than her. Sam of course has no such dynamic with Dean, but I think overall he’s going to be more assertive this season and carrying on - according to the PR - with having more of a leadership role in the dynamic. He’s definitely making the better choices right now while Dean urgently needs a personal day or six. So I think first and foremost it’s a compare and contrast rather than a direct parallel. There’s a great gifset I reblogged somewhere or other about Lucifer in 12x23 saying hurr blurr I can’t raise my son from a prison cell, and then Sam in the cell with Jack just captioned “HOLD MY BEER”, and Sam currently is the only positive father figure - and actually the ONLY father figure *on the board* for Jack, since the pool is Cas - dead, Lucifer - in the AU, Dean - not interested right now… Meaning Jack is pretty much Sam’s sole responsibility and the Lucifer vs Sam stuff may be being played as an oppositional thing. So Lucifer being a dick to Mary after saving her but doing it conditionally and in an attempt to make her go along with him (and that he only wants her to trade for Jack anyway) vs Sam just saving Dean because they love and trust each other already forevers and there being no terms and conditions except for not wanting his brother dead for well duh reasons is… nice.
But yeah it does also put Sam in a weird place where he’s being paralleled to Lucifer in any way and he has that long history with him. And I think by and large this is supposed to be positive for Sam and all but I agree with you that Sam can and maybe will fuck it up, and being oblivious to the dangers is the main way. In the “Donatello” conversation he doesn’t notice that Donatello switched from “Jack’s nature wins” to “let’s try moulding him” which was Asmodeus’s idea (and Sam’s) - but because Asmodeus was AGREEING with Sam and Sam was assuming he meant for the better, then he didn’t notice that Donatello was suddenly agreeing with him.
I think it’s pretty inevitable Jack’s going to have some sort of wobble - we’ve seen Lucifer is a tiny bit in his head even if he already picked Cas as his father and it’s clear he has a good heart, Asmodeus showed how easily some trickery and the path of good intentions can open a portal to hell (aww season 4 Sam) and that is something Sam himself has to deal with and his his hugest character thing overall - his arc led to that, and then on the other side of it has been about repenting for it and feeling awful that this was what he was basically raised to do >.> He should hopefully be a good influence on Jack to guide him away from repeating his mistakes but only if he can see the problem in the first place.
(Also yeah I love Sam and I’m excited and positive for his relationship with Jack but like you I think we do need to think about the problems, Sam’s lack of experience, this being a complicated time for him to take charge of a thing when historically almost every time he has been in a position of responsibility or strength he’s fucked it up when handling things himself, or else gone down some really dark paths… I think he CAN help Jack and ultimately WILL but that doesn’t mean it might not be rough along the way and I think people need to be prepared for that if they’re getting invested in it… Maybe even more so than the people who want Dean to be good with Jack and are getting upset about how hard it is because in a way that is a much more obvious problem and we were warned about it from the start, while Sam and Jack seems like such a good and pure thing it might be easy to let your guard down that the show can easily insert trouble and darkness into it…)
I wonder if there will be some tension to come between Sam and Dean about Jack kinda latching onto Dean though? Because I’ve wondered before that he is the moral centre of the show and Jack was mimicking him because he’s sort of needing Dean’s approval too, not just in a survival way but because Dean is so SURE of what is right, so being like Dean is default being right. (I think Sam has said something similar in 3x07 about always following Dean around trying to be like him when he was young? In that “i know when you’re scared” argument) And of course Dean being so sure of what is right and Jack not meeting that standard by default has been a massive part of why Jack levelled up in Winchester self-doubt and self-hatred in just a few days. Took less than a week to ruin him and Dean’s standards are probably a large part of it >.> So yeah, I hope Sam understands all the nuance of why Jack might have been mimicking/idolising Dean when Sam is the one trying to be the positive role model to Jack, just because he knows the force of Dean’s personality. I hope he doesn’t take it as a bad reflection on himself, ESPECIALLY if/when Jack fucks up as I feel will inevitably happen.
I think it does sort of reflect Sam and Dean’s long-standing alignments though… I just remember the season 6 poster where Sam has the snake and Dean has a literal freakin’ halo because subtlety? What is that? :P