1) Hey Saz, this is the person from Tink's long-ass 5-parter ask. This is going to be even longer. I'm on anon because of shyness above all things but I am willing to message you off anon if you want me to do so! I saw what you wrote about that ask and I agree.... to the most point. All the 'characteristics' of Destiel that differenciate it from other ships that you listed were actually applicable to some the ships I was talking about, especially Johnlock. -->
–> 2)The other ships, yes, you may be right, but for Johnlock I felt even more wronged intellectually when it crashed to the ground than I think I’ll feel if the same thing happens to Destiel. I’m going to sound like a Johnlock shipping troll, but I’m not, I ran away from the mess of a fandom it became post-season 4. So bear with me. I really can’t explain what my experience was at the time if you aren’t familiar with tjlc and what the pre-season 4 sherlock fandom was like. –>
–>3)But let me assure you that it was extremely alike the spn/destiel fandom right now. I want to point out the similarities of the fandom and the ship but that would basically mean me explaining why Johnlock should have been canon, and I don’t think you are here for that. So let me just point out a few things. By the end of the honest-to-god fanfic-y 3rd season, the GA were taking notice of it as well, to the point where, yes, the show is being called the worst queerbait ever even to this day.
–> 4)It frankly deserves it. And it was 2017…. we thought it was due fucking time. Guess it wasn’t. When looking ay bibro blogs I can’t help but be reminded of Johnlock antis. At least when that was a thing, you know, because you can’t be an anti of something when it turns out you were right. We made fun of them, because how the fuck can you see jealousy at weddings, literally killing for the other the day they meet, –>
–> 5) having something secret to say that they can’t bring themselves to say even after the other’s death, being broken over the other’s death TWO YEARS LATER AND ON THE DAY YOU FUCKING PROPOSE TO YOUR GF, prefering the other over your string of girlfriends, counting the texts a woman sent the other, COMING BACK TO LIFE AFTER LITERALLY FLATLINING BECAUSE THE OTHER IS IN DANGER, and, you know, constantly making both of them have shitty relationships and be unsatisfied romantically…. –>
…. and read it all as platonic? The show literally falls apart if you take away Johnlock… sounds familiar. You know, one of the writers for Sherlock is gay. So I believed in him, after all gay writers won’t queerbait, how could they? (turns out they could.) ……But I digress. I won’t blame you if you just glossed over what I ranted above. Actually some of the reasons I’m still holding out hope for Destiel is 1) How atrocious the last season of Sherlock was, worst than Supernatral at its worst. 2) The sense that everything is coming full circle in this season(which we didn’t get, btw, in even the last season of Sherlock). 3) Misha fucking Collins. And you know, although i heatedly ranted above in response to your response, I did it only because I wanted to justify what I spent near three years on. I didn’t want to leave you thinking that a ship like this didn’t exist before, because in my opinion, it did. So sorry. I was being spiteful. About the ‘Greatest Love Stoty Ever Told’, which was in fact the big fandom tagline for Johnlock as well……. I think I’ll wait and see. If it is endgame, then I agree that it really is the greatest love story ever told. And I also agree that the show seems to be going that way
So this is all in relation to this post and I think that the easiest way to answer this is to say to anyone still doubting, including nonny, to just read the various replies and reblogs on that post, because the answers are perfect.
Also nonny I know we have spoken in private already and you said that you were feeling better after reading the responses on that post as well so I won’t go into too much depth here, but I still wanted to post your asks in case there are still people out there feeling the way you do.
This is going to be my opinion on the matter, which, of course, is just that. There are many many people out there who were greatly upset by Sherlock and I feel for you all. Its not fair what happened and what that show put you through. Your feelings and your views on the matter are 100% valid and real and nothing that I say here is trying to contradict that. You saw a love story between those characters. That interpretation, like any interpretation of a text, is real and never let anyone say you were wrong. Johnlock still exists within the text of that show, just because it didn’t end with a kiss or a love confession doesn’t mean that it isn’t a valid reading.
I started watching Sherlock before I ever got into Supernatural. When it came out in 2010 I LOVED it. My film student lizard brain picked up on the Johnlock subtext pretty much straight away and aside from some very brief thoughts of “ooh that would be a different spin on it” I didn’t pay much more attention. I continued to watch Sherlock second season in 2012 and again I noticed the subtext, but at this point recognised that it was all done for humorous purposes. I never thought they would go there. I didn’t “ship” it because I didn’t even know what “shipping” was at the time let alone thought John and Sherlock were more than friends who happen to get mistaken for a couple. That was the gag. It was what made my very typically straight male young brother giggle like an idiot because apparently being mistaken for gay was funny. (It’s not. I hate those jokes. They don’t work outside a Carry On film and I don’t even like Carry On films).
When season 3 came out in Jan 2014 I side eyed the series because I had had enough of the gay jokes. I thought it was getting weird and could see that there was a beautiful bond between the characters that imo was being twisted for cheap laughs. I pondered on whether this Sherlock was in fact in the closet, Were they trying to tell us that he was secretly gay? I didn’t get it because it was never clear enough to me that this was the case and yet they continued to play around with the concept whilst the character of John is off with his fiance. My brother continued to find the whole thing hilarious. It was never taken seriously. My musings on Sherlocks sexuality were pushed aside because it seemed clear to me that the writers were not taking it seriously.
Then over the summer of 2014 I binge watched 9 seasons of SPN. I struggled with seasons 1 and 2, made it through 3, watched 4 and fell in love with an Angel of the Lord. It took me 10 episodes to figure out Cas was gay. It took me a further 2 seasons of umming and ahhing in my own head to conclude that yes, Dean was definitely Bisexual. It took until 6x20 to realise that this was legit something in the text and not my imagination. It took until season 8 for me to believe 100% that they were going there. (I wavered a bit on that belief in seasons 9 and 10 but season 11 pulled me back and I haven’t looked back since.)
In the early seasons, 4, 5 and 6, I recognised the patterns used between Dean and Cas were the same used in Sherlock. I re-watched Sherlock at some point in 2015 and remember thinking damn yeah they really were shoving the subtext in our faces a bit. But I still didn’t ship it, even though I was 100% shipping destiel at that point. I again pondered Sherlock’s sexuality, had a brief thought of “I’d like to see that take on the story” but again discarded any thought that it would actually be textual in a show that imo seemed adamant in keeping it all about the humour. If they weren’t going to take this characters sexuality seriously, then the story was never going to seriously be explored.
See if Destiel had always remained the way it was in seasons 4, 5 and 6, then I wouldn’t have any belief that it was going canon. I would probably still ship it (the sexual tension in season 4 was insane) but the idea that it would go canon would have always been a pipe dream. So many shows use the queer subtext as a source of humour. So many shows tease their characters as queer and use homoeroticism for titillation. It delights my idiot brother to no end. I hate it. I think it desperately needs to stop. I have never ever watched an episode of Sherlock and thought that it was doing anything other than just that. (I didn’t particularly like the 4th season though because nothing made any bloody sense and I think they kind of butchered the characterisations - I did say this would all be my opinion though so please don’t take offence).
You say that the show falls apart if you take away the romantic love story and make it platonic. I guess if I was to watch it again I could try to consider that reading, but my own experience watching seasons 1-3 is certainly not from a romantic view point and it all made sense to me. Season 4 didn’t make sense at all, and by the time that was on I was deep in destiel fandom and frequently writing meta, so I DID see the romantic reading in the text and yet still didn’t understand the story. (Again, I stress this is my opinion and is in no way trying to invalidate your own). However, with Destiel, the last three and a bit seasons narratively don’t work without it. I have tried to watch them and ignore every romantic moment, or hint at a romantic love between them, and in doing so, it confuses the fucking plot. I need to sit down and catalogue all the ways seasons 10 to 13 don’t work without destiel to evidence this but it would be a pretty epic job because there are ALOT.
I understand that you feel that Johnlock and Destiel are similar ships, but my opinion is that they drastically diverted course from each other when SPN went into its eighth season. Since then, there has been nothing quite like destiel in terms of build up and story structure - unless you start comparing it to the straight ships.
Where we are right now, destiel is deeply ingrained into the narrative of the show, and it is never used as a gag. It is never poked fun of in a way that reduces Dean and Cas’s relationship. Something that I believe Sherlock did right up until its last episode. I also 100% believe that the SPN creators and cast have a much greater respect and love for their fans than the Sherlock writers and cast ever did. (I’m not much of a fan of Bendydick Cucumberpatch and I have never been comfortable with Steve Moffat… dunno why the guy just gives me the creeps (then again so does Bob Singer)). They have been so positive towards Destiel recently that I am constantly stunned whenever new media or PR comes out. I am also of the belief that someone as wonderful as Misha Collins who is a champion for the LGBT community and cares deeply about making the world a better place would never ever involve himself in something that if it didn’t happen, would be considered the biggest queerbait in TV history. Breaking the hearts and severely angering millions of fans all over the world. Misha is a very smart man. He knows exactly how much this means to us and what it will do to us if it doesn’t happen. He doesn’t exactly look worried though. He doesn’t ever look like he is guilty over encouraging this ship? He looks like a fucker who knows whats up and can’t wait til we finally get to be in on the joke so he can tweet about it 24/7.
If destiel doesn’t happen, then Misha, of all people…. well… I’d have to rethink my entire opinion of him… the idea is so unfathomable for me, so impossible, it hurts my head to even consider. Did you ever feel this way about BC or Martin Freeman?
I just can’t believe that the people behind SPN would do that to us, but the people behind Sherlock? Well it didn’t exactly surprise me when it didn’t go canon. The BBC isn’t exactly known for being progressive. It’s known for playing it safe. If Sherlock was on Channel 4 I reckon they would have gone there. The Channel 4 execs probably would have encouraged it from the start. They would have considered it ‘edgy’.
I know that the CW isn’t exactly the most progressive network either, but its a young network, with a younger demo compared to the grumpy old pensioners who sit and watch BBC every night and complain that their tax payer money shouldn’t be going towards anything other than gardening shows and Eastenders. Soooo I think that has something to do with it too. The CW has a greater chance of pulling something like this off.
I’m so so sorry that Sherlock burned you. But don’t give up hope on destiel just yet, the factors are all currently in our favour. No two ships are alike, and in my opinion, Destiel is the motherfucking Symphony of the Seas compared to all others. It’s bigger, better, and hopefully, due for launch in Spring 2018.