Fuller talked about Will and Hannibal's present relationship being dead and that they have a new relationship dynamic that will still involve obsession. Do you have any theories (or wishes) for their new relationship? How you think it will be for either or both?
*gadzooks Anon do you realise what you are doing asking me these kinds of questions We ARE GUNNA BE HERE ALL NIGHT but you’re in luck I discussed a lot of this with my Go-To Supersmart!Person again so some of it stands a chance of being coherent*
What’s interesting now is how self-aware Hannibal has become.
I feel like the whole of season 1 was about him becoming smitten with Will without realising it.
(Just think of that time he opened his office door, expecting to see Will, and when he found an empty waiting room the smile just slid off his face like shit off a shovel! *if you’ll pardon the earthy expression* )
That lack of self-awareness is why Hannibal looked so bloody consternated in the beginning of s2, when he was staring at Will’s empty chair (like ‘well shit… I did not foresee this’). He was surprised by how much he missed Will.
S2, then, has been about Hannibal basically realising that he loves Will, truly (romantic love, platonic love, agape, all of the above, whatever you want to call it).
But he still didn’t know just how much he loved Will until he was betrayed. The depth of that hurt (and the implied rejection of him) was directly proportional to the depth of his love.
I keep wondering - if Dolarhyde had succeded at killing Molly and Walter, do you think Will would've been able to forgive him? I think at that point they are treading a very thin line and honestly I thought it was a stupid decision from Hannibal that could've made Will walk away for good.
I think Bella put it best in Mizumono when she was talking to Hannibal about forgiveness…
“Forgiveness is such a profound, conscious and unconscious state of affairs. You can’t actually choose to do it. It simply happens to you.”
And this right here is also what Bedelia was trying to say when she compared forgiveness to falling in love. Will has never had a choice when it comes to forgiving Hannibal, just as he has never had a choice when it comes to loving Hannibal. He simply does.
Will has already forgiven Hannibal for a lot. A LOT. So much that in reality it seems inconceivable for someone to forgive another person for even one of the things Hannibal has done to Will, let alone all of them. Over the course of their relationship, Hannibal has:
Taken advantage of Will’s encephalitis, something he smelled on him very early on, inducing seizures on purpose, getting a doctor to lie to Will about his condition, then convincing him he had a mental illness, all in his attempt to get Will to believe that he was a killer.
Framed him for murder, literally shoving Abigail’s ear down his throat in the process.
Allowed Will to believe that Abigail was dead for months.
Found out Margot was pregnant with Will’s child, then proceeded to insure Mason would take care of the situation before said child ever came into the picture.
When Will finally found out that Abigail was alive Hannibal killed her right in front of him.
Gutted Will with a linoleum knife, and regardless of his possible intentions for Will to survive the attack, he did leave him to bleed out all over his kitchen floor.
Tried to saw his head open with the intention of eating his brain.
Sent Dolarhyde after his wife and eleven year old step-son.
Taking all of this into consideration, I don’t think adding “actually succeeding” to the last one would have changed things all that much, at least as far as forgiveness is concerned. For Will, the moment that happened they were taken from him anyways.
Other things would have been changed as a result, obviously. Molly would have been dead and Will wouldn’t have been under any illusions that returning home was still even remotely possible. It’s hard to say what would have happened beyond that point though, and I almost feel like it’s pointless to speculate, but I don’t think it would have done much to change the inevitable forgiveness from Will. He can’t choose that he will forgive Hannibal for literally anything at this point, just as he can’t choose to stop loving him.
Forgiveness is such a profound, emotional, conscious and unconscious state of affairs, we can’t actually choose to do it. It has to come to you. Like a gift from God. There is no forgiving as a verb, as an act that you can actually execute. It simply happens to you.
What really impresses me with the trailer is how it’s this little self-contained story. The entire thing reads to me as from Will’s perspective, beginning with him in the hospital, deep in shock, and following him as he seeks Hannibal through the discovery of ephemera related to his past: the decrepit fountain, the graveyard, the small child’s handprint (!!!), and of course Chiyoh. We can’t be sure, watching Will conduct this investigation, where exactly his head’s at. Is he numb? Is he angry? Is he in mourning? Instead we have Chiyoh’s line, “Hannibal took someone from you. Are you here to take someone from him?” which again raises the specter of that very S2 idea: a ‘reckoning.’ An eye for an eye. Good old fashioned biblical vengeance. Is this what Will wants from Hannibal?
When the trailer finally reveals Hannibal to us, the tantalizing glimpses are so disconnected, if portentous, that I can’t really make much sense of them. They are super evocative, dripping glamor and thrill. We have the sense of Hannibal living the high life with Bedelia, both of them out of Will’s reach, which is why even this section of the trailer reads to me as being from Will’s POV. There’s a sense of distance to those images, which both enthralls and frustrates me, because dammit I need to know what’s going on there. And so does Will! So this trailer is very much putting us in his mindspace.
And then Will steps into what looks like a series of catacombs, but it may as well be him crossing the threshold into the freaking Underworld. And of course Hannibal is there, too. And with Will’s line, “I forgive you,” he answers Chiyoh’s question. Will isn’t here to take anything from Hannibal. He has rejected the path of S2, the vengeance quest and all the violence and secondhand calamity that comes with it. Instead Will is here to forgive.
But why? What has brought Will to this new resolve? I don’t know, can’t even begin to speculate. But as Bella told us in Mizumono, “Forgiveness is such a profound, conscious and unconscious state of affairs. You can’t actually choose to do it. It simply happens to you.”
Hi okay so I was wondering about some stuff! Okay for one, Will told Hannibal to kill Mason (or persuaded him w/e) and Hannibal acted like he killed him, but didn't. Obviously Hannibal knows how to snap a neck so that they die, but I read a comment somewhere that said he did it in a way that only made Mason unconscious. So I'm a little confused about that...Will pretended to Kill Freddie, Hannibal pretended to kill Mason? I'm drawing that parallel but idk (1)
I’m sure that Will knows that Mason is not dead. They would have had to, after that moment, somehow deliver Mason back home so that he would be found and delivered to the hospital to get fixed up, since it’s not like they can call the ambulance from Will’s house to have them come pick Mason up.
The point in keeping Mason alive was twofold: primarily, it puts Margot in a position where he can’t overtly abuse her anymore, but she’s able to keep her money, which was always the problem for her if he died. So instead of her being completely dependent on him, they’re now both dependent on each other. Much like Hannibal and Will, the reversal of roles between them only makes them more closely and painfully bound and obligated to each other, in a give and take that has nothing to with a normal, healthy relationship.
The second point in keeping him alive was to torture him, to give him the poetic justice of suffering a diminished life because of the the diminished life he gave Margot when he took her child and forced her to undergo a hysterectomy.
(2) and then also, you mentioned that Hannibal didn’t finish the death of Will. Was that a mistake on his part or intentional? I always thought it would be but then some people are saying he didn’t intend for it to be totally fatal. This show is always confusing me XD
Hannibal wanted to kill Will slowly, so that’s why he chose to gut him in the way he did. He wanted to talk to Will, to confront him about his deception and betrayal. And he wanted to hold him and say goodbye.
But he didn’t finish killing Will. He walked away instead. After Will showed Hannibal that he’d left as indelible a mark on Hannibal as Hannibal had left on him, Hannibal forgave him. It wasn’t a mistake, but it wasn’t intentional: it was forgiveness as Bella had described it: “a profound conscious and unconscious state of affairs. You can’t actually choose to do it: it simply happens to you.”
Forgiveness happened to Hannibal. Will changed him; Will’s still changing him. So Hannibal doesn’t finish Will off, but just leaves him to die, tells him to put his head back, close his eyes, and wade into the stream. Forgiveness or no, Hannibal has no mercy on any of them, and he still shatters the teacup, takes Abigail’s life from them again, so that they can never go back to this moment, never pick up the life that the three of them could have had together.
It’s not accidental that Hannibal didn’t finish killing Will. He made a choice not to do it. But it was accidental that he forgave Will enough to allow himself to make that choice.
I'm apparently a masochist because I was watching a fanvid with Mizumono clips in it and the infamous "I forgive you, Will. Will you forgive me?" came up and I was struck with how much it sounded like a test of sorts? Like Hannibal was willing to forgive Will for hurting him, and now he's seeing if Will would forgive him for killing Abigail (a hurt that Hannibal probably saw on par with his own, the drama queen). IDK if any of this makes sense, but I hope you could weigh in on it?
Weeelllllll…to some extent Hannibal’s question seems rhetorical to me, since I’m pretty sure Hannibal fully intended and expected Will to die on the floor there, and in that case Will couldn’t really be expected to have the opportunity to reflect very deeply on the matter before giving up the ghost. When Hannibal told him, “You can make it all go away. Put your head back, close your eyes…wade into the quiet of the stream,” on one level, he was suggesting that Will surrender himself to the release of death. That doesn’t leave much time for test-taking.
In that sense, it definitely highlights that Hannibal equates their two betrayals, as you said, because a rhetorical question doesn’t require an answer: if Will loves Hannibal as Hannibal loves Will, then the answer should be obvious. Thus there’s definitely overtones of the test you’re suggesting in the material, and I think it’s very likely that Season 3 will explore that forgiveness—absolutely—but, given the circumstances, I doubt Hannibal himself really intended it that way.
It also brings up the question: does Hannibal really forgive Will? Really? Really? I mean, it’s kind of a hard sell to claim that you forgive someone and then immediately strike at him where it will hurt him the worst—worse even than dying hurts. On the other hand, though, Hannibal doesn’t really operate the way most of us do (let’s hope), so just because it wouldn’t work that way for most people, that doesn’t mean it wouldn’t work that way for him.