stony dornish


The stony Dornish have the most in common with those north of the mountains and are the least touched by Rhoynish custom. This has not made them close allies with the Marcher lords or the Lords of the Reach, however; on the contrary, it has been said that the mountain lords have a history as savage as that of the mountain clans of the Vale, having for thousands of years warred with the Reach and the stormlands, as well as with each other. If the ballads tell of brave skirmishes with cruel Dornishmen in the marches, it is largely to do with the lords of Blackmont and Kingsgrave, of Wyl and Skyreach. And of Yronwood, as well. The Wardens of the Stone Way remain the proudest and most powerful of House Martell’s vassals, and theirs has been an uneasy relationship at best.

The World of Ice and Fire. Dorne. Queer Customs of the South.

Houses of Dorne (2/5)


There were three sorts of Dornishmen, the first King Daeron had observed. There were the salty Dornishmen who lived along the coasts, the sandy Dornishmen of the deserts and long river valleys, and the stony Dornishmen who made their fastnesses in the passes and heights of the Red Mountains. The salty Domishmen had the most Rhoynish blood, the stony Dornishmen the least. … The salty Dornishmen were lithe and dark, with smooth olive skin and long black hair. The sandy Dornishmen were even darker, their faces burned brown by the hot Dornish sun. They wound long bright scarfs around their helms to ward off sunstroke. The stony Dornishmen were biggest and fairest, sons of the Andals and the First Men, brownhaired or blond, with faces that freckled or burned in the sun instead of browning.

long overdue update of this post

lol @ people calling book!dorne a multiethnic melting pot. dorne is segregated as shit. different inheritance laws apply for different areas depending on whether they favour rhoynish or andal laws. stony, sandy && salty dornish don’t live together, yes there have been mixing. but like culturally it’s SEGREGATED 

also fyi turkey && india are diverse a/f don’t be a racist cunt, neither countries are homogenous.

dorne is inspired by MOORISH spain && palestine according to grrm, not european spain or south asia. in palestine you have people who are whitepassing gigi hadid to black people to semtiic people.

i know you all hate me/na people bc of your fox new or W/E && wanna make dorne spanish or indian or anything but me/na. but the dornish are middle easter get over it. it’s canon.

also the reason people use turkish && arab && persian fcs for the dornish is bc it’s nice to have representation of me/na people that doesn’t turn them into terrorists. srsly if you’re gonna talk shit about people using turkish fcs for the dornish, at least do your fuckign research on turkey before claiming it ain’t diverse. 

the dornish aren’t white. get over it.

anonymous asked:

Why do you think the Daynes aren't white? They are stony dornish,meaning they have more andal blood than rhoynish,so I've always thought they were white like the andals.

Because they’re not white. They’re descended from the Rhoynar just like every other Dornish house and have intermarried with those Dornish houses ever since. In fact, we have no instances of them *not* marrying within Dorne, except Dyanna Dayne who married into the Targaryens. Hell, the current Daynes are almost certainly descended from Nymeria herself.

Also keep in mind the stony/sandy/salty classifications come from Daeron I, who is pretty much the least reputable source of all time. No Dornish person has ever called themselves such. Additionally, they don’t have more Andal blood than Rhoynish, they (allegedly) have less Rhoynish blood than *other Dornishmen*.

randomthingsoverhere-deactivate  asked:

Hi! Can I just say that I really love your meta? You think of so many things, and it's so much fun to reread the books and see something staring me in the face that I didn't notice before. I have a question though, based on a discussion me and my mom had. Who do you think Rhaegar would have married if Elia had not been available? Lyanna, Cersei, Catelyn?

Oh thanks! :) And hmm, interesting question. The ill-fated bride search to the Free Cities was in 278 AC, Rhaegar and Elia were betrothed in 279, and married in early 280. So I’ll keep my speculation to those years.

Lyanna was 11-12 at that point, and possibly already betrothed to Robert, so I’m going to rule her out completely. Catelyn had been betrothed to Brandon Stark when she was 12 (276 AC), so again, no go there. (Lysa was 12-13, so a possibility but an unlikely one.) Cersei… we’re going to assume Aerys is still an absolute douchebag on the subject, so even without Elia, she doesn’t have a chance.

So we look farther afield. Westeros Houses that have provided queens to Targaryen kings: Velaryon, Hightower (twice), Harroway, Westerling, Costayne, Arryn, Martell, Penrose, Dayne (well not exactly, she died long before Maekar ascended to the throne), Blackwood. Other houses that have married Targ princes and princesses: Baratheon, Royce, Corbray, Manwoody, Plumm, Dondarrion. Narrowing it down, houses we don’t know if they had of age daughters (or are certain that they didn’t) in 279: Velaryon, Harroway (they’re extinct), Westerling, Costayne, Arryn, Penrose, Blackwood, Baratheon, Royce, Corbray, Manwoody, Plumm, Dondarrion. And per your stipulations, we’re excluding Elia Martell. That leaves us with Malora Hightower (Alerie Hightower was already married), Ashara Dayne, and any number of ladies from various houses who hadn’t previously married Targaryens. (Mina Tyrell perhaps, or some Rowans, Redwynes, Swanns, maybe one of Jon Arryn’s Waynwood nieces, etc, etc.)

But excluding those other ladies, and looking between Malora Hightower and Ashara Dayne:

Ashara is of age (probably), beautiful; her great-whatever-aunt was Rhaegar’s great-great-grandmother; is Dornish, but stony Dornish, from an ancient house of First Men origins, once kings. Note House Dayne is fairly powerful in Dorne, but would selecting a Dayne bride and passing over Elia piss off the Martells? (Unless Elia’s dead in this AU of yours, or already married to Jaime or something.) Also note that Arthur Dayne, Ashara’s brother, was Rhaegar’s oldest friend, and very close to him.

Malora is of age (possibly older than Rhaegar but note so was Elia). Appearance unknown (but has beautiful sisters). Called “the Mad Maid” - we don’t know when she was stuck with this nickname though - reportedly has an interest in spells (which might go well with Rhaegar’s prophecy obsession or maybe not at all), but again we don’t know when she picked that up. Also from an ancient house (possibly First Men, possibly from settlers who predated them), once kings. Also, House Hightower is as rich as House Lannister, can field 3 times as many soldiers as any other Tyrell bannerman, and has strong support in the Citadel and the Faith.

So the question is, why would this marriage be made, and who benefits? We still don’t know who arranged Rhaegar’s marriage to Elia — Rhaella being basically a prisoner in the Red Keep suggests she didn’t, but Aerys’s Dornish racism suggests he didn’t either, and it may even be possible that Rhaegar set it up himself. But if paranoid Aerys wants to get someone on his side against Tywin Lannister, the support of the Hightowers could be a very good thing. Or if Rhaegar wants support in the event he has to remove his father from the throne (cf. the theory that he bankrolled the Tourney at Harrenhal), again the Hightowers are very good to have on your side. (Though note in the last civil war they were heavily involved in, they weren’t especially successful.) The Daynes don’t bring nearly as much power to the table (certainly not as much as Elia did), but do have the benefit of familiarity— but would that be enough?

So, if we remove Elia as an option, and assuming Rhaegar doesn’t settle for a less-than-suitable Valyrian girl from the Free Cities, and assuming there’s no other major competition, I think it’s very possible he could have married Malora Hightower. Once we get TWOW, I wonder if Sam’s Oldtown chapters will reveal any evidence of this possibility…

gifresyna  asked:

In this what-if world where the Starks grow up normally, do you think Arya would have tempted to marry a Dornish lord? What with the gender equality down there, she'd possibly have been able to fight, and she *did* name her wolf Nymeria

The thing is, girls don’t generally fight in Dorne? Oberyn’s daughters are an exception, because he raised them that way. If you look at the Dornish ladies we’ve encountered who aren’t Sand Snakes, you generally don’t see them handling weapons. I’m pressed to think of any offhand. (Although I welcome potential corrections.) Of the Rhoynar women who came to Dorne, a quarter were warriors… but I’m not sure that tradition has continued as a general practice, TWOIAF doesn’t mention female Dornish warriors in its history of Targaryen-era Dorne. And that even the Dornish look askance at Elia Sand’s behavior suggests to me that Arya’s swordwielding might still be considered unusual there.

Also, Princess Nymeria wasn’t a warrior, she was a leader. That’s the difference in Dorne; women rule much more frequently, because they follow absolute primogeniture rather than male-preference cognatic. But other than that and some other customs, Dorne doesn’t really have “equality of the sexes” as we would define it, they still generally follow most Westeros gender roles (source). It wouldn’t make much of a difference to a woman who married into a Dornish family, unfortunately — the only thing she could be sure of would be that if her eldest child were a girl, she would inherit and rule after her father.

Nevertheless, I could see Arya’s “the woman is important too” feelings finding Dorne a more welcome place than the rest of Westeros. Whether or not Dornish women are warriors, “great ladies and famous princesses abound, and are the subject of songs and tales as much as the great knights and princes.” And in that “what-if world”, if Jon Arryn hadn’t died and Robert hadn’t come north and Ned and the girls never went south and Jon hadn’t decided to take the black just then, would Jon have ever commissioned Needle for Arya? So perhaps the swordwielding question wouldn’t come up, and it would just be the general Dornish culture that Arya would be looking at and be interested in.

Mind you, whether the general Dornish culture would be looking at a Stark is another question. Like I said here, Robert’s Rebellion and the murder of Elia and her children put a bit of a damper on Stark-Martell relationships. (Even though Ned quarreled with Robert over it, things could be a bit touch-and-go.) The Daynes are a possibility, but a questionable one since we don’t know exactly what happened when and how they feel about Ned after Ashara and all (I don’t actually believe Edric Dayne is Eddard’s namesake, we’ll see). Also the Daynes are Stony Dornish and “less touched by the Rhoynar”, so the cultural thing may be moot there for all we know. But there’s potential nevertheless… and if one did want to develop that what-if world, possibly angsty potential for people who like that sort of thing. (If not remotely as angsty as ASOIAF itself.)

(BTW, something else I didn’t mention in that post is that Arya might also have been intrigued by the warrior culture of Bear Island; the birthdates of Maege Mormont’s daughters, as well as the carving on their gate, suggest that the atypical Mormont women thing is not just due to Jeor’s taking the black and Jorah’s exile. But there are no Bear Island noblemen or boys near Arya’s age AFAWK, which is why I only mentioned the mountain clans and not Bear Island in my original post.)