I think that the withdrawal of the grant and the implication of student loans necessarily limits people that want vocational careers and produces a generation of people who feel that only the purpose of education is to earn money. And you already see it happening, right? It’s changed the vibe of campus and it changes the kind of people that want to go to college and I think it was done deliberately.

I think it was done deliberately to rid us of all these troublesome thinkers and artists, and of conscientious people. And I think that if Thatcher could have done it she would have done, because I remember a really famous bit of television—well I don’t think it was famous, but it was famous to me:

It was in about 1988 and she was being shown around a women’s college in Oxford, and she said to this girl, ‘What are you studying?’ And it was just broadcast as just a bit of like, filler footage. Thatcher went, 'What are you studying?’ and the girl said, 'Ancient Norse literature.’ And Mrs. Thatcher went: 'Ooh, what a luxury.’

And this wasn’t pointed up as meaning anything, but it does mean something. What it means is that the Prime Minister attached no intrinsic value to knowledge of another culture, or of the past, or of its language. And its a cliché to say, but you understand the modern world through its echoes in the past.

And obviously, there’s not a huge financial future in studying ancient Norse literature, but we do need people that know about these things, and the 'trickle-down’ effect of their knowledge enriches a culture and the people in it. And to say that, what she said—'What a luxury'—indicates that if she didn’t believe there was a direct financial value to it, that it was of no value and the pursuit of that information should not be subsidised by the state, and that’s wrong and I think it was done deliberately.

In the end, [Lord of the Rings, a film trilogy that wouldn’t exist without Tolkien who studied English literature at Oxford on scholarship funds,] that made a lot of money, didn’t it? But you know what, the problem with that is then you’re being drawn into fighting the war on their terms:

When Battersea Arts Centre was threatened with closure because of its withdrawal of funding from Wandsworth Council and when the Bush Theatre was threatened with closure because of the withdrawal of its grant from the Arts Council, the bigwigs from both those places engaged with their detractors by saying, 'But look, we developed Jerry Springer: The Opera and that went on to the West End and made loads of money for businesses,’ and the Bush went, 'We developed this play about whatsit, and so-and-so’s in it,’ and whatever.

But actually, what they should have said was: 'Look, we put on, for a week, a bloke blowing into a balloon and dragging it around on the floor and making funny sounds. And that didn’t transfer to the West End because it has no commercial future, but it is inherently worthwhile.’ That’s what they should have said: 'And that’s why it needs funding.’

But instead they engage on their [detractors’] terms and they’ve already lost because they talk to these people as if the only point of the art were to make money for shops in the West End because people on the way to the theatre were buying crisps. It’s like you’ve already lost because instead of going, 'Well we feel this has an inherent value in and of itself,’ you’ve gone: 'Yes, but look, it made loads of money!’ So it’s a problem.

British writer and comedian Stewart Lee, creator of Jerry Springer: The Opera, discusses current levels of student debt and how it is affecting the careers of potential comedians and other writers/artists/performers. He also discusses the importance of arts funding and grants and the need to defend art for art’s sake.

Lee studied English at St. Edmund Hall in Oxford on a full grant between 1986 and 1989. The Lord of the Rings mention comes from the fact that Tolkien himself studied English at Oxford under a scholarship.

Now, in the 1980s, the Labour party believed that the poor, who did not deserve to be poor, should be helped by the rich, who did not deserve to be rich.

Meanwhile, the Conservatives thought that the poor, who deserved to be poor, should not be helped by the rich, who deserved to be rich.

And that is the 1980s explained.

It’s very different today. Today, both the main parties believe that the poor should be tied up in a bin-bag and thrown into a canal.


Stewart Lee

saying everything you think about the world, much more articulately and with more understanding, since 1989

In the 80s, when what was called alternative comedy started, one of the things that it was supposed to do was not be sexist, not make fun of people who were differently abled, not do racist stuff, whatever.  All that’s survived of that is - race is still, has remained a taboo.  Everything else has crept back in.  A lot of it’s crept back in under the idea that there’s irony, that the comedian is holding up a mirror to society, showing us our prejudices by enacting them for money.

So it has certainly changed.  The two examples you cited there, you talked about Jimmy Carr and Frankie Boyle.  What I think’s difficult about them is that, I think they both really really like jokes, and that’s obviously a good thing for a comedian.  But I think they both start with a punchline, and they work back to a setup.  Neither of them seem to have a coherent worldview.  So what’s confusing about Frankie Boyle is, one minute he’ll be making fun of a handicapped child, and the next minute he’ll be doing something about Israeli occupation of Palestine that seems to take some kind of extreme left-wing position, so there doesn’t seem to be a -

Same with Jimmy Carr.  Doesn’t seem to be a coherent position, so therefore you don’t know what you’re supposed to take as truth and what you’re supposed to take as irony.  And the reason there isn’t a coherent position is it’s all about getting a laugh, rather than about having a point of view, or a consistent personality.  Their acts aren’t informed by a personality or a worldview.

That means they cut down really well, into short slots on telly, they cut down really well into Twitter, into tweets.  They cut down really well into being on some page in a lads’ mag or whatever.  And you could argue that’s the job of a professional comedian.


I don’t know how they remember them, to be honest, because I couldn’t remember a hundred unrelated jokes.  I don’t know how you do it.  I wouldn’t be able to remember whether I was supposed to be a sick right-wing libertarian or an anarchist from one moment to the next.


It seems like a lot of the targets that we’re picking on now are not necessarily people that need to be taken down a peg or two.  Like Katie Price’s autistic child - I didn’t notice him getting above himself to be honest.  I think it’s gone a bit wrong somewhere, and I don’t know how that is.  I don’t know how you deal with that, other than censorship, and I don’t know if that’s necessarily the idea.  You hope it’ll sort-of be self-policing, but I don’t know.


I think this idea of what’s allowed is a bit confusing at the moment, because I don’t know if comedians are necessarily respecting the license they’ve been given at the moment.

—  Stewart Lee
All our universities are turning into book-balancing business schools or results-driven scientific research centres, treating students as client-customers who deserve to see an investment return in the form of increased living standards and higher salaries in exchange for spending their student loans, and funded by patrons and public bodies wanting to see practical results. Once you joined a university to service the global advancement of ideas. Now you employ it to make you more employable. The notion that thinking about abstract ideas like art and life might be an end in itself is being priced out of existence and legislated into oblivion.
—  Stewart Lee