snapped gamzee

anonymous asked:

man I don't think you can really say bro is brainwashed but gamzee's just evil when you can argue that gamzee's also possessed by cal. they even have really similar relationships to how he's formed, ie part of their souls exist inside lil cal already. which is probably a good explanation for how lil cal is able to brainwash them when he doesn't brainwash, like, dave, who is around him his whole childhood. idk, I just think gamzee's more complicated than "evil ass hole"

As it happens, Gamzee has a line I never gave much weight to before noticing Bro’s SAW interest that I’m more inclined to take seriously now, that suggests Gamzee and Bro’s relationship to Cal WAS intrinsically different:

But even if Bro is kind of a noble captor figure holding Cal back, I still wouldn’t think it excuses any of what he put Dave through. He’s still an awful dude.

As for Gamzee, here’s the main problem with reading him as “just” brainwashed.

Gamzee doesn’t require Lil Cal’s presence to go evil. In fact, Gamzee doesn’t seem to require ANYTHING to turn evil. 
But even if like, Doc Scratch ALWAYS teleports Lil Cal into Gamzee’s presence to trigger his personality shift, I don’t think it would matter.
The weight of the sheer SCALE of Gamzee’s devotion cements his place as an ultimately willing accomplice/acolyte to Caliborn’s Dark Carnival. 

And it kind of makes Gamzee fucking terrifying and a fantastic villain.

I’ll explain my reasoning here.

We know for a fact that Gamzee snaps and kills all his friends in at least one Doomed timeline. This is the source for half the code used in the creation of Doc Scratch. There’s no implication that Lil Cal is involved here at all. 

But again, let’s assume Lil Cal was here again. It doesn’t matter.

Because there is canonically, explicitly, no timeline in the history of Gamzee where Gamzee ever, ever, EVER chooses to rebel. Gamzee Makara simply does not ever choose his friends over Lord English.  In any timeline. Ever.
How do I know?

Lets talk about Ghosts for a minute. The fandom has historically kind of taken these guys for granted, and loose fandom consensus is that they aren’t coherent/who has what ghosts is arbitrary. This is incorrect!

Pretty much everybody in the Bubbles that should have alt!ghosts does, including Meenah and Aranea, the two characters who’s alt!ghosts are typically presumed “Missing”. 

This is important. The Ghosts kind of give us very low-key character development, and contextualize the characters for us. For example, Eridan is an absolute irredeemable bastard in the Alpha timeline. But in a God Tier iteration of themselves, Eridan and Feferi seemingly come to friendlier terms. In another, there’s suggestions Eridan makes up with Feferi and Sollux. In yet another, he seems to be Trans or exploring femininity at least.

The point is, there’s a certain fluidity to Eridan’s potential. Still terrible in the comic, but it’s important to remember that Eridan didn’t CHOOSE to be trapped in the meteor with Jack, or to be born to Alternia’s power system, or to be trapped in the Alpha Timeline. 

It’s important to remember these things because in Homestuck, someone with power–Lord English–deliberately and willfully chose those things FOR him. Eridan’s lives are lived in response to that imposed power structure.
These factors don’t redeem him completely necessarily

But anyway, the fact that the rest of the cast have coherent quantum expressions means there are only three real exceptions–three characters who either don’t have any ghosts at all, or should have more ghosts than they do. 

The first is Caliborn, who’s timeline has exactly one deviation from the Alpha–apparently caused by John’s retcon. This riddle’s solved easily enough:
Predomination doesn’t leave a ghost to appear in the bubbles at all.
When Calliope says she ate his soul, she means that literally. 
Caliborn’s cheating in the Alpha Timeline is indeed the only reason Calliope exists in the bubbles at all.

(This, by the way, explains a lot about the relationship between Caliborn’s soul and Gamzee/Arquis’ in the Lord English. He predominated over them, too.)

The second is Vriska, who only has a single ghost in (Vriska). This is really weird, because we literally know for a fact she dies in more than one doomed timeline! As with the two Calliopes, I think this is down to John’s retcon doing some weird entanglement nonsense to Vriska’s quantum existence.
The point is: Where others have a palette of possibility, Vriska has two extremely polarized halves. Schrodinger’s Vriska. 

Important to mention that just like Eridan, the structure of the Alpha Timeline that limits potential Vriskas is IMPOSED ONTO HER. Vriska didn’t want anything about the way she was raised or where she was born. She didn’t ask John and Terezi to retcon her into this bizarre state. Both Vriskas, like the rest of the cast, are rolling with the punches LE has seen fit to give. 

Except for Gamzee.

Hussie literally tells us Gamzee never dies. His single non-Alpha Timeline death in [S] Game Over is retconned by John, and Hussie suggests it straight up doesn’t count. But that presents a problem.

There are thousands upon thousands of Doomed troll timelines. How is it that Gamzee specifically never ever EVER dies? Well, there’s only one real way that a Non-Time player can survive a Doomed timeline, that we know of:

Dream self merger. By going to sleep as the last player present in Sburb, the Doomed Rose from Davesprite’s timeline triggers a game mechanic that ends her timeline completely and merges her consciousness with that of Alpha Rose through their dreamselves. 

If Gamzee survives his doomed timelines, this is the only possible way how.
And collapsing all of his potential instances into a single Alpha identity certainly sounds like the reduction of possibility commonly attributed to the Rage aspect.
But what that means is that to move on to the Alpha, every Doomed Gamzee must inevitably either snap and kill all the other trolls, or somehow outlast them. 

And it means that if any Gamzee had EVER, in the entire spectrum of plausibility the Alpha timeline affords, EVER been inclined to rebel against LE–then we would know. Because somewhere out there, that at least Hussie could see, there would be a Ghost to show for it.

But there isn’t. Similar in this respect only to Caliborn, Gamzee simply has no alternate deviations because he doesn’t want them. He chooses the path that leads to Lord English freely and willingly, over and over and over again. 

And like Caliborn…

Gamzee does this because he wants to. 

Gamzee doesn’t BELIEVE he’s going to become his own God–he knows it for a fact. He sees it in Lil Cal’s mangled soul. And he embraces that truth wholeheartedly, throwing himself into the acolyte role from then onwards and presumably following instructions Doc Scratch gives him throughout Act 6. 

Which we can talk about some other time. The point is: Gamzee chooses all this. Whether or not Lil Cal causes him to is beside the point, because there is not and never will be any timeline where Gamzee chooses to resist. 

Gamzee is the ultimate in shitty cosmic nazi religious zealots, and devoted to the very power structure that causes every other character to suffer so. There are no mitigating factors for him as there are for everyone else but Caliborn.
At the end of the day, he’s evil.
Bad clown. Worst enemy. 

  • Gamzee on sopor: *stupid idiot who just wants to be everyone's friend and watch horror movies and scare himself silly*
  • Gamzee off of sopor: *remains a stupid idiot who just wants to be everyone's friend and watch horror movies and scare himself silly*
  • Gamzee watching the ICP video: *gets upset but doesn't hurt anyone even though he's in the lab with everyone else*
  • Gamzee looks into Lil Cal's eyes: *suddenly refers to himself as two people and wants to murder all his friends*
  • Fandom: It must have been the sopor keeping him calm all these years
  • Gamzee: *admits to Lil Cal fucking up his head*
  • Fandom: Gamzee's a highblood it's just in his nature to be murderous
  • Lil Cal: *canonically presented as having a mind of its own and possessing a part of Lord English's soul*
  • Fandom: The video is what made Gamzee snap
  • Jack: *looks into Lil Cal's eyes and suddenly is filled with rage enough to stab both his eyes out*
  • Fandom: Maybe Gamzee was just evil all along
  • Gamzee: *takes on a large range of Lord English's characteristics*
  • Fandom: Honestly who even knows what's up with Gamzee at this point

anonymous asked:

do all Bards generally snap like Gamzee did? or was that just the slime/lil cal's influence? and, if all Bards snap, would they do it drastically once or could they also "snap" like multiple times?? would a bard of heart do that??? whaT EVEN IS THE "SNAP" I AM SO CONFUSED PLEase help ? (Ps sorry to bother you on your vacation! It looks super cool where you are :D )

It’s pretty fundamental for a Bard to be kidding themselves or tricked or mistaken
The quest is realizing it and growing from that
They suppressed their aspect and can suppress in others or make it explode

Every Bard, at some point, needs to wake up and smell the fire burning. Deal with the situation. If things go poorly, this realization could be some kind of volatile snap, as they have to snap to attention and handle the bad things going on

Princes and Bards destroy because their aspect is overwhelming and a negative influence

Bards destroy initial in themself, usually a coping mechanism due to the surplus both around and in them, later evolving into destroying it around them due to that suppressed state, and by their realization, being able to destroy with it as well

This was with Gamzee, having been of slime (a coping mechanism, suppressant) and his religion (coping mechanism, helped shape his world view) and Lil Cal whispering to him how things “REALLY are”

TC: but it’s all good, i’m chill with it. ”
Things are changing about him and his perceptions and he is ok with that

TC: and the floor all stares up back at you through the motherfuckin hole.
TC: only under motherfuckin standing of who all i was made out to be all along.

“TC: i’ve been kicking the wicked ignorance on this shit.
TC: all up in lifelong denial about my calling.

“TC: and now i’m the last one, so i finally motherfuckin understand.
TC: they were always both me. :o)
TC: and now.
TC: i am going to motherfuckin kill all you motherfuckers.”

He finally understands himself and the world around him. For the first time in forever, his is truly aware and accepts what is going on
The big BIG issue was Lil Cal and Doc Scratch

In a moment of clarity, thanks to the video, Gamzee understood his religion was bullshit
But instead of this being a progressive, self development moment, Doc Scratch and Lil Cal corrupted him and used his dangerous ancestry as a lever

Basically they took a very important stage in his quest, a crucible of growth and understanding, and twisted it into making him not just a deadly pawn, but one fueled by thinking it is all his own choice

He snapped in that specific manner for Scratch/English’s game

His realization was basically stollen from him and turned into more of a horrible snap and a danger to everyone rather than something actually good

A Bard’s realization can be more explosive or more tame, but it is very significant self development, making them not only more competent and useful, but also opening up a slew of powers
And if the conditions are right and the pressure is high enough, this could manifest as a total meltdown


I just noticed this, but Terezi(and Vriska) even call Eridan a friend. But not Gamzee. Eridan, who killed two people, blinded another, and destroyed the matriorb. Gamzee killed two people… Two people. And is referred to as “ahem. Final living party member.”

Is it honestly so horrendously evil to be angry that no one gives a shit about him?


It was about motherfucking time Kurloz became useful.

Sure the nightmares had been fulfilling (half the time at least), but nothing could compare to the real thing.

Seeing the troll that he had flushed for what seemed eons ago presenting himself in nothing but a fairy dress and fake-wings made him an aroused motherfucker. His eyes immediately drew to the shortest part of the dress, where the purple polka-dotted panties peeked from the zigzags of cloth, most likely courtesy of Kurloz-


Keep reading

  • Gamzee on sopor: *stupid idiot who just wants to be everyone's friend and watch horror movies and scare himself silly*
  • Gamzee off of sopor: *remains a stupid idiot who just wants to be everyone's friend and watch horror movies and scare himself silly*
  • Gamzee watching the ICP video: *gets pissed and upset over his religion being made fun of so he wanders off into the meteor sane but angry*
  • Gamzee looks into Lil Cal's eyes: *suddenly refers to himself as two people and wants to murder all his friends*
  • Fandom: It must have been the sopor keeping him calm all these years
  • Gamzee: *admits to Lil Cal fucking up his head*
  • Fandom: Gamzee's a highblood it's just in his nature to be murderous
  • Lil Cal: *canonically presented as having a mind of its own and possessing a part of Lord English's soul*
  • Fandom: The video is what made Gamzee snap
  • Jack: *looks into Lil Cal's eyes and suddenly is filled with rage enough to stab both his eyes out*
  • Fandom: Maybe Gamzee was just evil all along
  • Gamzee: *takes on a large range of Lord English's characteristics*
  • Fandom: Honestly who even knows what's up with Gamzee at this point

anonymous asked:

Oh man D: And what would Karkat do with the same knowledge, that Alternian Gamzee killed him? (And the WAY he killed him, wow) If you feel comfortable with answering another question .u.""

Karkat is well-acquainted with the thought of his own death, and the concept of somebody so close to him being the one to do it is really disturbing but he’s a Vantas and that means his priorities are so far backwards they’re coming back around the other direction towards compassionate.

little bit late for that, bro

mangeyfandom-deactivated2015052  asked:

So basically, you guys believe that gamzee just snapping and being a monster is not great storytelling, that there's not enough evidence to support that as the only interpretation, and that there is a strong indication that he is basically a shell of his former self that has lost all agency and is to some degree not responsible for his actions. Just making sure I have it clear, because I used to think it was Draco-in-leather pantsing but am now trying to form my own opinion and see all sides.

That is the basic gist of it, yes. Also, part of it is that ‘just snapping’ is an awful, ableist trope, and while a lot of Gamzee’s arc is already winceworthy (I saw it referred to as ‘crazybaiting’, c.f. ‘gaybaiting’), having it be down to ‘snapping’ and having been evil all along would be so narratively disappointing and boring. It’s an old, weak trope and one of the laziest lines of characterization a writer could possibly take. It’d also be disgusting, considering what kind of prejudices it plays into (which is QUITE A FEW).

And yeah, there isn’t enough evidence to make ‘Gamzee is and always has been a monster’ a more likely theory for what’s going on. (Especially the ‘always has been’; that’s a chilling and vicious way to interpret any character’s past actions. What person is ever so coldly calculating that every past thing they’ve done has actually been a jab or slight at someone else?? imo it says more about the person claiming it than the character. It’s also that awful ‘born bad’ trope.)

(Have you seen this post? And this response? That should give you a better idea of where I’m coming from, here.)

We’re hoping for better than the same old shitty villain that’s basically a bunch of shitty prejudices haphazardly tied together with old string and bubblegum, especially since some of us have been the target of said shitty prejudices in our actual lives.

(idk if anyone is claiming Gamzee has lost all agency, but I know I’m questioning just how much agency he does/has had. Assuming non-lazy writing, there are a lot of fascinating questions surrounding the blank spots in his arc.)

I guess there may be people for whom Gamzee is Draco-in-leather-pants territory; the idea anyone who thinks that I’m in that group makes me want to laugh hysterically. I don’t think everything he’s coded is is sexy, mysterious, or alluring, which is partly because I’m thirty-five and way too old for the ~forbidden~ as portrayed by absurd anti-drug PSAs to hold any interest for me, but mostly because I think it’s depressing and way too similar to some of the circumstances I grew up with, and which I am sick of being used as shorthand for ‘bad person’. It’d be nice if, for once in my life, a character coded the way Gamzee is were more complicated than that.

moments between yesterday and tomorrow PART 26

“Hey,” John says as he lopes up to you in the morning. Whatever it was that spooked him so, he’s good and over it as soon as the next day. Between him and Dave it’s calamari jokes all day long. He’s out of breath and grinning. “I got you something.”

You blink at him, and blink some more when brazenly invades your personal space to grab your hand. Drops something onto your palm. It’s a circle of dark gray entwined strings, with a red wooden bead strung on it. Confused, you hook it onto your index and peer at it.

“It’s a bracelet!” John supplies, rocking back and forth on his heels. “Look, see, I got one, too!” He does. There, on his thin, fragile wrist is a bright green one with a blue bead. “I made some for everyone!” There’s more. Red with black (for Dave) and fuchsia with black (for Rose), and about a dozen others, cradled between his fingers like a crumpled rainbow. 

“Oh,” you say rather stupidly. Fuck. You have no idea what to think of it. It’s one of those thoughtless, human gestures that wig you the fuck out. Even though you fully well know it’s not meant to be, it feels like he’s trying to stake his claim on you. 

Problem? You’re… oh, fuck. You’re okay with that, is what. Problem is that, well, John’s not. Claiming you. In any other way as his friend. You swallow, look at the innocuous object in your hand. It’s enough, you decide. You remember how you felt when he wasn’t your friend. It’s more than enough.

You put it on. It’s nearly invisible against your skin, gray on gray. Only the red pops out, like a drop of blood. Your blood, John’s blood. Same difference.

The whole exchange rattles through your skull for the rest of the day. Can’t stop fiddling with it, nudging the bead this way and that. Are still doing that, only half aware of it, during PE.

Keep reading

anonymous asked:

Can you explain how one blow to the head was enough to kill nepeta, but terezi can survive the " atomic juggalo back breaker " and other abuse? it seems nepeta was actually more well equipped to fight because she hunted animals while terezi was on a flare team. They should've been on equal ground, no?

Don’t worry! You’re only making a uniquely fallacious blend of assumptions and oversights. :)

Gamzee snapped Nepeta’s wrist on contact. He then approached Nepeta’s sprawled-out form ominously, and then we cut away. When we eventually see Nepeta’s corpse, her head is thankfully discretion-cropped out of the frame, with blood coming from approximately that direction.

In other words: “One blow to the head”?? That’s one hell of an assumption. You don’t know if Gamzee clubbed Nepeta’s head one time, ten times, or ten thousand. And that’s just the damage that caused bleeding.

Terezi, on the other side of things, has another unique distinction from Nepeta’s situation: Gamzee isn’t actually trying to KILL her, much less cripple her. He’s just giving her an excruciatingly painful, humiliating beatdown and showing off about it to taunt his ex-moirail.

This question did make me realize something though: A connection to the whole “Heads are a Mind symbol“ hypothesis. Gamzee already showed a willingness to incorporate irony into Equius’s death, strangling him with a broken bow. So, given how Nepeta disregarded Mind in favor of Heart by refusing to consider the danger of her situation, leaving a perfectly safe hiding place to indulge her natural curiosity (and thus dying by Gamzee’s hand), it would make a degree of ironic sense for Gamzee to end up bashing her head in as a consequence of her not using her head.