rock family tree

madamovary  asked:

at what point do you go from being a son of a major house to being a cadet house to just being some dude with a good name? if jaime had married and had children (purely for genealogical debate purposes), would they also be lannisters of casterly rock while tywin was still alive, prior to jaime becoming lord of the rock? what if tyrion married, had children, but did not inherit because jaime did? are his children lannisters of the rock? (1/2)

(2/2) if tyrion buys a tower and sets up home in it, is it a cadet house? is tyrion a lannister of the rock, but not his kids? if his kids wander out to be traveling knights, are they lannisters of his cadet house? if they go marry innkeepers and live from home, are THOSE kids then finally not lannisters of the rock but just bob and tom lannister? are there rules? thanks!

First of all, cadet houses are not originally an ASOIAF thing – they’re a real-world historical thing. See the wikipedia article for “cadet branch”, that should answer many of your questions. GRRM has put a few of his own twists on the concept, though, so let me explain.

A cadet house in Westeros is created when a younger son or junior branch, not in the direct line of inheritance, is granted or acquires his/their own lands and castle and forms a new branch of the main house. Some examples:

  • House Greystark: thousands of years back, a younger son of House Stark and his family were granted the Wolf’s Den on land that would eventually become White Harbor. The Greystarks were around for five hundred years before they joined with the Boltons to rebel against House Stark, which ended badly for them; they are now extinct.
  • House Karstark: founded a thousand years ago by Karlon Stark, who was granted lands for his valor and built the castle Karl’s Hold. The name of the castle eventually shifted to Karhold, and over time the Karhold Starks became Karstarks. Their motto, “the sun of winter”, is a punning reference to their originator, a son of House Stark.
  • House Lannister of Lannisport: founded thousands of years ago, when there were too many junior branch Lannisters to fit in Casterly Rock anymore. Instead of expanding the tunnels of the Rock, they moved into a village a mile away and turned it into a town, then a city. Note, the Lannisters of Lannisport are only distantly related to the Lannisters of Casterly Rock (though probably some younger sons have married into them within the past couple hundred years) and have no real claim to the Rock.
  • House Blackfyre: a cadet house of House Targaryen, founded about 120 years ago by a legitimized bastard of King Aegon IV, who was granted lands by the Blackwater by his half-brother King Daeron II in respect of their late father’s wishes. Soon rebelled against the Targaryens, leading to five Blackfyre Rebellions; were exiled from Westeros, and are extinct in the male line.
  • House Fossoway of New Barrel: founded about 100 years ago when a cousin from a younger branch of House Fossoway finally had enough of his main-line cousin’s assholery – he changed his sigil to a green apple instead of a red one, and at some point acquired his own lands and castle. In current Westeros, characters often distinguish between the red-apple or green-apple Fossoways.  
  • House Royce of the Gates of the Moon: uncertain when they were founded (at least 50 years ago), but the lord of the junior branch of House Royce of Runestone has been serving as the Keeper of the Gates of the Moon (an Arryn castle) for some years now. (The Keepers are traditionally Arryn kinsmen, note.) Recently they were granted the title and the castle in perpetuity by the Lord Protector of the Vale.
  • House Baratheon of King’s Landing and House Baratheon of Dragonstone: founded after Robert’s Rebellion, when Robert Baratheon became king of Westeros, and granted the Baratheon lands and castle of Storm’s End to his youngest brother Renly, and the formerly Targaryen castle and lands of Dragonstone to his younger brother Stannis. As the eldest son of House Baratheon, Robert could have reserved both Storm’s End and Dragonstone for his own potential sons, and left his brothers to fend for themselves, but he was carelessly generous instead. Note, the King’s Landing Baratheons currently use a split Baratheon/Lannister sigil, and the Dragonstone Baratheons use a sigil of the heart of R’hllor with the Baratheon crowned stag inside.
  • House Frey of Riverrun: The family of Emmon Frey and Genna Lannister, granted Riverrun after the Tullys were attainted by the crown, as part of the rewards for the Frey participation in the Red Wedding. (Note this does not include lordship over the Riverlands; that belongs to House Baelish of Harrenhal.) See also House Bolton of Winterfell and House Lannister of Darry.

Regarding your specific questions:

  • If Jaime had married and had children, would they also be Lannisters of Casterly Rock while Tywin was still alive? Yes, certainly, especially since Jaime is the eldest son and heir of Tywin. (I’m assuming this is in a no Kingsguard Jaime AU of course.) Note that Tywin was a Lannister of Casterly Rock when his grandfather Gerold the Golden was still alive, and Tywin’s younger brother Kevan and his family are Lannisters of Casterly Rock, and Tywin’s uncle Jason’s descendants are Lannisters of Casterly Rock. There’s a lot of Lannisters of Casterly Rock. (This family tree may not even be all of them.) Casterly Rock is big. There’s plenty of room for Lannisters.
  • What if Tyrion married, had children, but did not inherit because Jaime did? Are his children Lannisters of the Rock? Yes, as long as they keep living in Casterly Rock, see the above question.
  • If Tyrion buys a tower and sets up home in it, is it a cadet house? You can’t just buy a tower in Westeros, this is feudalism, all lands and castles belong to some lordly or knightly house already, and they don’t get sold. (He could buy a house in a city, but cities are different - ask @racefortheironthrone​ for the reasons why.) But Tyrion could be granted a tower, mind you. Or a castle. Tywin, for example, wanted to give Tyrion Winterfell. (Or the chance to capture Winterfell, at least.) If that had succeeded, Tyrion and Sansa’s children would likely found the cadet House Lannister of Winterfell. (Yes, it’s possible to have cadet houses in different regions of Westeros – see House Kenning.) It would be similar if Tyrion were granted lands and a castle in the Westerlands, although Tywin wouldn’t be likely to give him any such thing. (Jaime might, if Jaime were lord; but if Jaime were lord, Tyrion probably wouldn’t want to move out of the Rock.)
  • Is Tyrion a Lannister of the Rock, but not his kids? Tyrion would likely always consider himself to be a Lannister of the Rock, even if he formed a cadet house, and his kids might as well. Cadet houses are sometimes formed over time – see the Karstarks, who possibly considered themselves Starks of Winterfell who happened to live in Karl’s Hold for the first generation or two. But if a major family division was what caused the cadet house (see the green-apple Fossoways), then the choice to be associated with the new castle would encourage the separation. In the case of the theorized Lannisters of Winterfell, see the Freys of Riverrun or the Lannisters of Darry – the association of the new cadet house with the castle is part of the conquering of that castle and lands, to show both dominance over it and a connection to its smallfolk.
  • If his kids wander out to be traveling knights, are they Lannisters of his cadet house? Yes. See Ser Lothor Brune, a freerider who is related to the knightly cadet branch House Brune of Brownhollow, not the lordly main branch House Brune of the Dyre Den. (His sigil is the Brune of Brownhollow bear paw, distinguished by the apple cores of the Fossoways he slew and captured at the Battle of the Blackwater, from which he gained his knighthood.)
  • If they go marry innkeepers and live from home, are THOSE kids then finally not Lannisters of the Rock but just Bob and Tom Lannister? If they go and marry innkeepers they’ve married into trade, the horror. But they’re still a cadet branch of House Lannister. See the Arryns of Gulltown, a cadet branch who married merchants and are rich, though they’re considered uncouth and nobody talks about them. You’ve got to really suffer defeats to lose your status of nobility but keep your name – though that can happen, see the Heddles, who are innkeepers and considered smallfolk or as close to middle class as Westeros gets, but who are the descendants of a landed knight. (BTW, you’re suggesting the names Bob and Tom Lannister as a joke, but this is a family with a Jason, Dave, Kevin, and Gerry, so it’s not that off.)
  • Are there rules? The rules are what you make of them. It’s a matter of custom and tradition and societal acceptance, not law as such.

I hope that helps!

Wacky Wednesdays 28/09/2017

Animals always had an important in Keith Emerson’s life. He mentions them commonly and put pictures of them in his book. His most famous pet is Smokey, his parrot, with whom he appeared twice on tv and had an entire photoshoot.

Let’s see how much of an animal lover Keith was!

(Part of the ELPets series)

Here, Keith is pictured with his budgie Teddy Boy in 1959.

(Picture and information from Keith Emerson’s Pictures of An Exhibitionist, page 87)

Around 1966, Keith had 2 pet mice called Ella and Thelonious. He talks about them in his autobiography (page 51) but sadly there are no pictures of them.

Keith pictured with The Nice (1969) and an unknown dog, which I suppose is his. Photographer unknown.

Keith circa 1979 with an unknown dog, again which I suppose is his. Photographer unknown.

Picture of Keith from 1994 with 2 unknown mice, again which I suppose are his. 

Here is the infamous Smokey :

Picture by Neal Preston, 1994

From the credits of Rock Family Trees The Prog Rock years documentary (date unknown)

From the documentary Where Are They Now ? (date unknown)

Pictured below is Keith with the cockatiel he adopted in his later years (name unknown).

Picture from Aaron Emerson’s Tribute video for his father’s birthday

Just like Greg Lake, dogs seem to trigger Keith’s affection. However, birds were present through his life and seem to have a special connection with him. I can imagine his gentle soul must attract and comfort animals.

Hailey Slater - Founder of the Slater Random Legacy

Marital Status: Single parent

Number of Children: Four

Primary Career: Criminal (Evil)

Generational Goal: Fulfilled

Misc. Fun: Random Traits

Coming soon.