inb4 everyone loses their mind about how great BakuDeku is, I'm just trying to make a point. It's a debate, not an argument. That's just my rebuttal. (8/6 wow this got long)
Ah, man, I’m going to have to show all of your messages together because your response was awesome. The thing is, you do have many valid points, and I completely see where you’re coming from and why your point of view on this definitely needs to be heard.
I hope you don’t mind. I want to respond to you with you knowing that I read every piece of your response and I want to give you the time you’re giving me.
Same anon. Comparing a ship where Deku is told to kill himself and he suffers from depression from everything Baku put him through to “it’s like getting mad at someone for picking green as their favorite color” is a pretty bad comparison honestly. If you romanticize the behavior it leads to people thinking that it’s okay when it clearly isn’t. (1/6)
I agree, that this is a comparably weak analogy. However, I do not intend to romanticize anything when it comes to this ship. These ideas that I’m talking about may sound romanticized, but in execution it would be far harder and more difficult than it seems.
Also, I would never, EVER, expect the rules of a ship that I like and find interesting in an anime to reflect a real-life relationship or what I would want from a real-life relationship. Maybe this a little confusing, but when it comes to characters and their relationships, I usually never associate them with what I would want in real life.
Hence, this is why I enjoy writing about it so much, because of how relatively ridiculous and unrealistic it is (and I know that I mentioned the “realism” point on my post and your counter to that, which I’ll expand on).
Anyway. I agree that romanticizing this behavior is awful, and it shouldn’t be glorified. I don’t think Bakugou should be romanticized as a character at all. I’ve mentioned several times that he’s an asshole and should be held accountable, and in no way would I ever expect this ship to work in canon.
Basically, despite what I love about the ship, I’m completely aware of how horrible the idea of the bully/victim dynamic is reflected in real life, and how circumstances aren’t meant to be built and executed in this way outside of the realm of literature and other artistic mediums.
I understand that you base the attraction of the ship off of healing, forgiveness, growth, etcetera. However, that’s implying that Deku (and others like him who have been in the same situation) would even do any of that. Like he would actually have some kind of mutual love with the same guy who made him fucking hate himself. It literally makes no sense whatsoever considering if you’ve actually talked to anyone who has been bullied, they don’t typically go from “this guy is an asshole”… (2/6)
Hm, you have a point here. I agree with your first statement, but I also want to touch on the “actually have some kind of mutual love with the same guy,” tidbit. I want to clarify that I do think, even with these elements in mind, that Izuku and Katsuki, IF this was based canonically, would have to rebuild some semblance of friendship over years of reconciliation.
Also… I’m not sure, if Katsuki is actually the main cause of Izuku “hating” himself? I can’t defend anything for Izuku’s complete lack of confidence in the very beginning and the obvious effects that Katsuki’s bullying has had on him. And I don’t plan to, because I think you have a very good point here.
Also, Anon… I have been bullied.
I was bullied verbally and physically through elementary, middle and high school. My family dynamic has led to me being bullied and cornered in my own home. My only two romantic relationships stemmed from mental and sexual manipulation and abuse from people I once considered my best friends, and even though I forgave both of these people, I would never turn back and accept them in my heart again.
I’ve faced repercussions from every experience, and still do.
I understand how dreadful and deplorable bullying is, and how it affects victims and the people around them and dear to them. In no way do I want to ever come off as a person who romanticizes bullying or even promotes something similar to that.
But again, this ship is not based off of an idea that I would ever want in my life or want anyone I care about to experience. It’s an idea that I enjoy reading and thinking about in a work of total fiction, with aspects of it that I enjoy and relate to, while also understanding that my life and the works I enjoy are separate.
You can take that as you will.
This may seem backwards, but it’s how I feel.
(Also, Anon, I don’t see parts 3 or 5…? If you want this included on here, send them to me or let me know. I could be missing some of your response…)
Has anyone else who has been bullied relentlessly who is reading this felt that way /ever/? I seriously doubt it. Not only does it not make sense, but it insults the trope as a whole. You continue to make general contrasts and parallels to Katsuki and Izuku which is nice and all. That’s great. In fact, that’s fantastic for a platonic respect that would somehow grow from whatever bitterness they had before. (4/6)
Ah, this is kind of going off my last response.
I agree that it works mostly in a platonic respect, because mostly of what I love about these two characters and their parallels is their entire dynamic as a whole, both in a romantic and non-romantic context.
I was focusing on the romantic since that was the subject of the anonymous message you sent me, but there is no doubt in my mind that in the canon universe and even in general, these two work marvelously in the platonic respect.
That’s part of why I love the challenging (and seemingly impossible) idea of carving a romantic image out of it. Is it necessary to enjoy the dynamic? No. Absolutely not. I think your points on this make a ton of sense.
And no, as someone who’s been bullied for the vast majority of my life, I’ve never felt this way. Ever. I agree with you on that.
Again, that’s part of the challenge in writing about it, not exercising the practice in real life. I do think the ship is toxic and has a ton of issues, and I’ve mentioned that before–in fact, a lot of the reasons why I mention those to begin with, is based on making readers understand that what happens in this ship shouldn’t be celebrated as an embodiment of perfection or a work of fiction.
But, I see the problematic viewpoints in my arguments, as well. Some of these will lead to us having to agree to disagree, but I really love this rebuttal.
You can forgive someone but that doesn’t mean things are better. That doesn’t mean Deku is fine, it just means he’s let those actions go and he won’t let them haunt him anymore. But forgiveness isn’t an open door for romance. If someone has broken your best friend’s heart and you forgave them for that, it doesn’t erase the memories of you watching them cry or trying to console them because of what their ex did. (6/6 but I still have more to type and this inbox sucks
Everything you’ve said here, is completely, 100%, TRUE.
I absolutely agree on all of the points you’ve made in this specific section. Especially on the nature of forgiveness and how you’ve expanded on this from a previous section you wrote.
I also agree that forgiveness is not an open door for romance… but it can be.
Now, I’m not speaking from personal experience, and I’m not speaking for the experience of anyone else, but that sentence alone is not universally true. It’s a rather bold statement to make, and it would be impossible to assume that every person who forgives someone would shut the door for romance.
The circumstances are different with everyone, but it IS TOXIC for a person to immediately forgive, forget, and leap into a romantic situation with no rebuilding or actual time taking place. It’s a complicated subject that you’ve introduced well, and again, I think you’re correct.
Is it true for BakuDeku, though? Yeah, I think in terms of canon, you’re correct.
But this, again, is why I think it’s challenging. Also, while mentioning this, I do not think that people should feel obligated to open their options for romance upon the nature of forgiveness. Ever.
Again, what I find intriguing in a ship between fictional characters does not reflect what I would want to see from real people, especially those near and dear to me.
Your examples are very relatable too, and help bolster your argument well.
To clear one thing up, I’m one of few people who ship BakuDeku who completely understands why people hate the ship… for literally almost everything you’ve said so far. I know that this exists, and that your logical viewing behind it is completely valid and makes absolute sense.
The ship is ludicrous, and the elements that I find fascinating between the characters is why I want to write about them.
Also, yeah, the inbox system sucks on here. I’m sorry about that, but I appreciate you breaking up your responses!
If your father used to tell you to kill yourself and treat you the same way Baku did to Deku, you can forgive him but that doesn’t erase whatever Deku has gone through. Forgiveness isn’t a plot device to spur your ship. It’s far more complicated than that. And last but not least, you can challenge yourself with writing without having them fall in love after all the horrible shit Baku has done to Deku. BakuDeku is in no way realism. (7/6)
Again, I agree with you, especially on the first sentence.
I do find it… kind of unbecoming, to claim that I’m using forgiveness as a plot device to spur the ship. I suppose that it can be considered that, but I don’t take the subject of forgiveness lightly at all–I know that it’s one of the hardest, if not the hardest thing, you can do individually for both yourself and the person involved.
I’ve had to forgive quite a lot of people to give myself peace, and that has taken years at a time for some, and months for others. I’m fully aware how complex and emotionally rendering forgiveness is, and what it takes to follow through with it.
I also completely agree with writing about them challengingly and not having them fall in love. I think that’s what’s going to happen with the canon material, honestly. At least, I’m hoping for it, that they can overcome these hurdles and at least mutually respect each other as people.
Now, the romantic context? That’s purely for out of canon and not at all based on strict material or realistic representation within the manga or from personal experiences.
“BakuDeku is in no way realism.”
Hm. You may have a point here. I can see how my statement earlier on BakuDeku being a reflection of realism is flawed, and with the examples you presented I’ll respect that. I’m aware that it’s in a context of fictional characters with overly dramatic and exaggerated circumstances and personalities, and I do think there are realistic elements that can be taken with a ship based in an anime.
But I agree that outright claiming it to be based on a foundation of realism on top of everything else is a stretch, considering the argument you’ve presented.
inb4 everyone loses their mind about how great BakuDeku is, I’m just trying to make a point. It’s a debate, not an argument. That’s just my rebuttal. (8/6 wow this got long)
Anon, I think it’s actually really incredible that you bothered to present a well-thought-out, well-presented, and very cordially presented rebuttal to my response to your original message.
I’m grateful that you contributed to this as a discussion, and I love the points you made. I also don’t want you to think that I do support some of these elements that is mentioned above, and that my intention is in no way to romanticize the ship for what it is.
I also know you’re not trying to start an argument. I love what you’ve had to say, and I really appreciate it. I appreciate the respect and clear attention you’ve put into the post I made and your response, and I hope that my response isn’t angering you or upsetting you.
And if you didn’t want me to do this, please message me and I’ll gladly take it down
I adore the duality of Tony Stark. Not the secret identity thing, but this idea, one that you get to see more of in the comics than the films (though IM1 did this a lot): the idea that there’s this aloof, cold businessman who puts on perfectly-tailored suits and snarks his way through a room and destroys opponents without a thought using an offhand quip, and resorts to pragmatism when nobody else will, and wears his playboy persona on his sleeve, and knows all the easiest ways to blow up a person or a world, and has a bit of a god complex, and used to be called the Merchant of Death -
- but he’s also the guy who wanders around like a zombie before the first coffee of the day, and works with his hands, and spends his time with mad-scientist hair and wearing scruffy vests covered in oil because he got caught up in his hard work and his passion for creation. He’s the guy who will do anything for his friends and makes silly jokes over breakfast and wholeheartedly, dorkily loves the Avengers, from the concept of it to the people in it. He falls hard for the people he loves, and is incredibly lonely. He’s the guy who goes to orphanages and holds babies when he can’t sleep, and adores kids. He’s the guy who cries easily, never thinks he’s doing enough, struggles with alcoholism and chronic illnesses, and desperately doesn’t want to be his father, no matter how much the media pins the opposite on him. He loves the world and the people in it, even when he kind of hates them, and is constantly working to make things better. He remembers his employees’ names and asks after their families. He tries to see the good in people and goes for rehabilitative over punitive justice wherever possible, even when it comes to villains who have actively tried to kill him. He’s known for how much he cares, exhaustingly, about everything. He’s the man who honestly has a good heart and is constantly trying to reach out, and often gets laughed at for his idealism. He’s a man who’s so often in pain, but tries to use it to improve the world rather than letting it destroy him.
Sure, I like his ruthlessness and some of his coolness, but I also love the guy who unironically adores classic Star Trek and makes absentminded Dune and Arthurian references and thinks equations are cool; who makes mental notes of his friends’ favourite breakfasts and takes young heroes under his wing and is semi-jokingly horrified when one doesn’t have a file system. Who goes “but why does that do that?” and wants to take everything apart and fix it so it can help people, and honest to god believes in a better future.
(The movies are subtler about that side of him, but it’s still there. I mean, as a little thing, I’m always grateful they let RDJ put some of his own love of classic and sometimes silly rock into Tony Stark. Not just because I share that music taste, but I always like characters who are nerdy and wholehearted about at least something. But the bigger stuff, too: the between-the-lines moments: the naming his bots, the “here, have my whole R&D lab/my company/my home/my heart if you want it, why do you look so surprised?” That’s all straight from the comics. It’s just done slightly more snarkily and with a slightly shorter, brown-eyed Tony rather than a tall, blue-eyed one.)
I will never, ever, ever get tired of ONE turning shonen expectations on their heads. I love the way the two panels on the left set everything up for a giant go-all-out battle of psychic powers between Shimazaki and Mob…
…and then the next few panels have Reigen just walking straight up to Shimazaki and punching him right in the fucking face.
And the only way he could do it, was because he doesn’t have any psychic powers at all.
HEADCANON THAT KAREN WAS PETER’S NAME BEFORE HE CAME OUT AS TRANS AND THERES THIS TUMBLR POSTS WHICH SAYS THAT TRANS KIDS SHOULD CHANGE THEIR NEGATIVE ASSOCIATION OF THEIR PREVIOUS NAME TO A POSITIVE ONE AND THATS EXACTLY WHAT PETER DID
K but in all honesty Tumblr sleeps on Ladyhawke so much
A) It was made in the 80s so every now and then (like in the beginning of the fucking movie) there’s really inappropriate synth/electric guitar music and slo mo shots and lens flares and it’s fucking delightful
B) It’s about a knight and a lady who fell in love but a creepy ass priest (of course) wanted her so I forget how he pulled it off but now she is a hawk by day and a lady by night (TITLE BUT WITH AN “E” ADDED IN THE END FOR NO REASON) and he’s a man by day and a wolf by night and they only see each other in their human forms for half a second when the sun is rising (or setting I guess) and it’s The Most Tragic Love Story Of Our Time
C) She’s stunning but not completely incompetent; he’s broody and badass and did I mention he turns into what amounts to a giant dog it’s like your boyfriend turns into Ghost what’s not to like
D) Yes Matthew Broderick is there and yes he doesn’t really fit the vibe but mostly he’s there to be you. He’s there to be like “omg what a tragic love story I must help the otp” he’s there to be like “wow Michelle Pfeiffer’s face was carved by the gods and also she turns into a bird of prey how amazing” and he’s kind of a flop but you tolerate him, it’s the 80s, Ferris can stay
E) I forget exactly how the plot is resolved but let me assure you that it is as over the top and ridiculous as you’d expect, full of ominous church things