Oh, I planned to ask you about your opinion on Dean's daddy issues in As Time Goes By. ;) Why do you think it was in character for him to defend John? I, personally, agree with you. But I saw so many posts complaining about this that I start to doubt my opinion - that it was left unresolved (acknowledging it to himself and Cas are exceptions imo) and that Seasons 6 and 7 didn't dealt with his daddy issues at ALL. I'm not surprised he regressed to 1-3 style of "John did the best he could".
I saw a reblog of one long post that argued it was OOC for Dean to defend John because, essentially, so I gathered, of his outburst in S03’s Dream a Little Dream, where he admitted to himself that John put too much on him growing up and wasn’t fair to him and wasn’t a great dad (which is all true!).
I was going to respond, but ultimately didn’t see the point. I disagree, but I felt the argument was valid, so I didn’t see a discussion over it going anywhere.
Basically - his confession to himself in Dream a Little Dream was, to me, a private, secret confession. It was Dean confessing, in the privacy of his own head, something he was ashamed of thinking, something he would never admit to in public.
And since then I do not recall Dean EVER criticising John out loud in any significant way (when did he acknowledge anything about John to Cas?). I do not see Dean defending John as a regression, Dean has never outwardly STOPPED arguing ‘Dad did the best he could,’ so I really don’t understand what it’s supposed to be contradicting by him continuing to say it in As Time Goes By. Why do I think it’s in character? My question when I saw posts going around that were angry about it was ‘why do you think it’s NOT in character?’ :p
Fair enough if people think there’s discontinuity in characterisation there though (is that a thing? characterisation continuity?), but I just don’t I’m afraid *shrug* The way I understand Dean, his hero worship of John is so deep rooted it’s NEVER going to go away completely, he may understand better now that John had flaws (a secret son in Adam, leaving Mary when Dean was really young, unfairly neglecting his kids in pursuit of revenge etc), but understanding that doesn’t stop him loving John and it doesn’t stop his gut feeling, his default setting, from being ‘Dad did the best he could,’ it doesn’t stop him thinking the best of John regardless.
Plus, I thought it was pretty natural for Dean to want to deflect John’s flaws onto Henry as well, blaming John’s poor parenting on the fact Henry left him. Just to try and lessen the weight of some of the criticism Dean’s come to acknowledge of John over the last few years, maybe an attempt to get back some of his youthful ideas of John as a hero by painting him as a tragic victim of a cruel father, a way of justifying the hero worship Dean still holds for John. Of course, this failed when Henry proved to be so wonderful and that he’d not left John out of choice, removing that excuse for John and making this episode another in a long, slow journey of Dean being forced to face up to the fact John was not a saint. This is something Dean is ALWAYS going to struggle with imo, and I’m okay with that, that feels right to me.
Bi perspective for Adam: along with seeing it as admiration, he maybe would subconsciously try to not get too close and to push the person away at least until the crush is over. But having excuses for it, you know? Kind like he is with Ronan, tbh.
Would the difference in that sort of treatment depend on how viable the crush was?
I feel like warning you that fandom's reaction right now isn't pretty, but justified. (really, if you come across any wank, read this article www[.]dailydot[.]com /fandom/ supernatural-destiel-fans-wb-exec-twitter / before believing that it is only because of April like some are saying...). Fandom is divided, and I'm afraid it will stay that way. Oh well. Sorry for bothering you xxx
Thanks for the article! Interesting… I did know the upset would not be simply about April though x It’s a continuation of the whole issue of fans feeling queerbaited and that queer representation is being wrongly denied.
Which I’m not going to deny IS AN ISSUE - hence my open call for people to unfollow me if they want, because I understand this stuff is upsetting for many fans and the fact is… my blog may well not be the place for those fans, because, not being part of the queer community and having argued all along that Dean/Cas AND bi!Dean (or bi!Cas for that matter) was never a route I believed the show was going down (or intending to go down, or even realised was something fans would think they were going down), I don’t feel queerbaited and can still be satisfied with and enjoy and squee over the show.
Intellectually I can see the problem, but it doesn’t hit me emotionally like it is hitting a lot of others. Instead when I watch the show all I see is Dean frantic with worry about Cas, which makes me happy, and then Cas about to enjoy sex for the first time which… *shrugs* also makes me happy! Leaving my emotional state as ‘awwww’ and *melt* and me smiling. I can’t… I can’t change that :/ And my happiness is intensified by the fact that everything happening is very much in line with what I personally EXPECTED to happen, so I personally do not feel led on at all.
So, yeaaaah, there’s that.
What I find curious about the article is the way the two members of the crew were so UNAWARE of dean/cas and even shipping - was it even Guy Bee it quotes as not understanding what a 'ship’ is? That… kind of supports my belief that TPTB, even those very deeply involved in the show, just DON’T UNDERSTAND they are queerbaiting (or even WHAT THAT IS) and believe the way the show is written is simply giving fans what we want.
Is sending the feathers the only way to help with the campaign Feathers for Castiel? It's difficult to international fans such as myself. Maybe in this case we could tweet and send emails to TPTB with the words "Feathers for Castiel" + a picture of a feather? They DO listen to the loud brothers fans online, so maybe they would finally listen to the others fans as well... I vote for we to be as annoying as it's possible, as that's seem to be to only way to be heard by them...
If you honestly can’t send feathers then look at tweeting everyone you know on the day, or emailing, or something else. But please, if you can send feathers, do. I’m in the UK but I’ll be sending my fair share.
We do need to be loud and irritating. We need them to notice.
I don't know if it is because I'm used to read mangas with 500+ chapters that have new things added to a character's backstory everytime there is a flashback chapter, but I don't get why "retcon" is such a bad thing to fandom (specially in a WIP that is a TV Show). Can I offer you a headcanon about Cas? His rebellion in Egypt consisted of him putting the protection on people's door. Because it's a loophole, right? They just needed it.Loopholes = pretty small rebellion(nothing worth killing him)
Hello! I know this was ages ago, but here I am finally replying.
I don’t know why this ‘retcon’ is such a problem for some people either. Retcons aren’t inherently bad, in fact they are NECESSARY storytelling tools for WIP stories. People tend to be on edge about them because they can be used badly, and quite frequently are in TV shows and comics, so I guess I get the initial feeling of uncertainty whenever one happens. But I don’t understand why THIS one got so much attention and negative backlash - the cure for vampirism and killing demons by burning bones and a LOT of stuff in Taxi Driver were much more problematic retcons than adding stuff to a backstory that had been pretty much a blank slate for years.
The idea that Cas put protection on people’s doors is sweet. I don’t think he would have come UP with the idea of adding the bloody marks, because Naomi would have found out about that and I think that would have been too big a rebellion for just a small memory wipe. But I can see him putting a few marks on doors that didn’t have one, and then when he was joined by other angels and was unable to secretly keep doing that and HAD to finally start killing people he couldn’t do it - not because he was refusing and being a rebel, but simply because he was too horrified and upset and physically COULDN’T. In my headcanon he flies away and Balthazar finds him crying outside a house he’s supposed to have killed the family of (oh, or maybe he DOES kill one family and is overcome by the guilt and pain of it) and when word gets back to Naomi she just wipes his memory of the experience in an effort to remove the memory of that time of tender emotion, and thus try and stamp out the inclination to tender emotion in general. Yup. Headcanon :)
Simon/Etta? If it doesn’t hurt too much *I’m in eternal denial about what happened to him*
you got it! I’m not gonna lie to you tho, I may drown in my tears as I make it. And you’re welcome to join denialland with me where he’s still with her and they’re fighting for the world together and don’t mind me I’m just gonna drown in my tears
I agree with you on the Trial's arc so far and Sam being the hero. Just want to point out instead of "supporting character" it would be better (imo) to describe Dean as "The Narrator" or "Main Pov Character". We can have half a season without the real Sam (S06), episodes in alternate realities without him too (What is What Should Never Be, The End, etc.). But never without Dean. We're far more often on his head than Sam's. Imo one is the "action" while the other is the "reaction".
PERFECT. Thank you!
I KNEW ‘supporting character’ wasn’t what I meant, Dean is more than support, we see much more of him and his issues and his story for him to be simplified in that way. That’s why I can’t really get behind this whole ‘Dean is being constantly sidelined’ argument because… he’s not? His story is just DIFFERENT to Sam’s.
I like ‘narrator’ :) Although I think ‘main POV character’ probably fits better.
‘Action’ - Sam. ‘Reaction’ - Dean. Is a good way of putting it as well. I can see fandom’s criticism of that though - I’ve often heard people saying it’s unfair that Dean is always forced into a reactionary role, he should have a chance to make his own decisions. And I actually agree with that. Dean being reactionary is part of what is stopping him living for himself - he doesn’t know how to be ‘action,’ ie. to make choices for himself, to build his own life. So it’s kind of annoying the choice about who would do the trials was taken from Dean - Sam ended up being bathed in the blood, and Dean had to react to it. But he was never gonna let Sam take on the trials otherwise so… I guess it worked out… and also he sort of DID let Sam take on the trials, because they COULD have found another Hellhound, if Dean had really pushed it. So maybe he was partly being the ‘action’ there in choosing to allow Sam to do it?
Also, I don’t think Dean can be all action all at once. He needs to learn to ‘act’ in stages - starting small with setting up his own room and stuff.
Am I weird for not thinking Ruby was totally evil? She acted out of loyalty to her king, after all. Besides, good or evil or neither, Zeke is still “codependency and Dean’s wish to control and for perfect little brother Sam” in a character form imo.
You are not weird! Personally I think Ruby was quite nicely complex and morally grey. We never see her enjoying torture or expressing a desire to hurt innocents, for instance (like Meg, for example), and she seems to me to genuinely have Sam’s best interests at heart, truly believing that what she is doing to him will be something he will benefit from.
But I do think that the show in general reduced her to ‘evil manipulator’ with her reveal at the end of S04 and has simplified her character since. So if I ever label her 'evil’ I’m just using shorthand to express how she is generally portrayed or accepted as by the show, as opposed to how I personally consider her character.
I don’t think so, it seems to be a new show that happens to be set in the same universe (it’s quite common in book franchises tho).
Yes, I love it in books and comics - my god, that’s how Hellblazer started! As a spin off from Swamp Thing. I love multiple stories/series set in the same universe in literature, and it’s been working v. well for the Marvel film franchise as well :)
I’ve not been involved in many TV shows that do the same thing, though, so I guess I’m weary. The only TV universe I’ve been involved in that had multiple shows was Buffy, and I liked that well enough, but I never really got deeply into Angel, and besides, this is different, because the spn spin off has no known character to spring from…
Oh, no, I’m lying, there’s DW and Torchwood too - but I really REALLY didn’t like Torchwood, so… :/
I’m still working through Xena and have dipped into Hercules recently however - that’s multiple show in the same universe that seems to work REALLY well, I’m enjoying that.
This certainly has potential to be cool. I’m just worried the focus might be on the wrong thing (ie. on attempting to squeeze more money from SPN fans more than making a good show). We’ll see!
"That’s an interesting one - what would have happened if Dean Smith had been anything but a businessman? And COULD Dean be part of any other profession if he grew up without hunting?" I belive he said somewhere in season one that he wanted to be a firefighter? Even if he didn't, I think it would have suited Dean perfectly. Yay for Zach for putting him on what seemed like a flawless apple pie life for Dean, but lacked "saving people" and action.
Yay for Zach indeed, the magnificent bastard :p
He did indeed say he wanted to be a firefighter. You know, I think he probably WOULD make a good one :) I don’t know if it was ever a super serious dream of his, or just because as a kid fire must have seemed the ultimate enemy for a while there what with Mary and everything, so perhaps tiny Dean dreamed of being the kind of hero that could have saved his mum :(
So tons of you asked about this one! And I’m not surprised, because -
This is the episode that made me realise I loved the show.
This is the episode where he got CASTIEL’S POV in a way we’d never got from a secondary character before, imo. Because we saw Cas grow in this episode, we saw him develop from the ‘hammer’ he’d been trying to be all season (even though in his secret thoughts he felt he was more than that) into an individual who was ‘considering disobedience.’ And we saw it all FROM HIS PERSPECTIVE.
This is the episode the show jumped from a two man show to a three man show for me and I can’t tell you how excited it made me! How absolutely thrilled I was to find myself experiencing an evolution like that, to witness a change in a long-running show’s dynamic. It felt amazing!
Sad the three man thing never completely took off, of course :p But the episode remains outstanding.
I fail at picking absolute favourites of anything, because when I’ve picked one thing I’ll remember another I really love and then I’ll think that thing is better, until I remember another thing that then competes for the spot and in then end I decide I love them all equal but different and fail to choose. But if I were to pick an all time favourite episode of SPN this is always the one that springs to mind first :)
And, of course, this is the episode with ‘my superiors have begun to question my loyalties…’ <3 And oh the ANGST! Angst for Cas, angst for Dean! LOVE his struggles over the torture and learning about breaking the first seal <3 <3 <3
But we’ll be here all night if I pick out all the things I like about this one because it’s the whole thing! In fact, I can’t think of ANYTHING I would change or feel critical about. This one is FLAWLESS.
Bela was hated because she fucked up too much with the boys *I liked her tho* It wasn't that different from fandom's reaction to Gordon, for example. Ruby 1.0 was loved and actually I think it was Genevive and not her character who got all the hate. There were loads of comments about her and complains about Ruby 2.0 characterization in general, not of the character herself. But that's just my opinion and the hate Amelia receives now that she has a personality doesn't make sense for me...
I am avoiding Amelia hate like the plague. I admit I didn’t like her much at all in 8.01, but I kept quiet about it and hoped she’d get better, and she has. I really really like her now. So, eh, haters can hate.
I don’t understand why we have to hate characters that fuck with the boys? I found Bela enjoyable BECAUSE of that. As I did Zachariah, who I freaking HATED, but I loved to do it and it was always a joy having him around as an antagonist.
And the hate on Genevive kills me. Why?? I don’t see the problem in Ruby 2.0’s characterisation either and I don’t even get the critique of Gen’s acting, I thought it was fine… :( I get that it was her and NOT Ruby in general the fandom came down on, but I’m pretty sure TBTB would have just taken it as ‘oh they don’t like the woman, better have less important women then’.
It’s a catch 22 though. Because much of the fandom wants to like the show’s female characters, but then the show gives us female characters that are hard to like (apparently - I will always disagree over this about Bela and Ruby 2.0) and when we react against them the show takes it as evidence we don’t want female characters… *sigh*
The best leaders are the ones who are EQUALS to their “followers”, imo. Besides, I think it’s pretty common in fictional groups of friends that someone takes the ‘leadership’. It doesn’t mean he’s actually their ‘commander’ (like John was).
Usually, at least in the fictional group stories I watch/read, the leader is very clearly defined from the beginning, or emerges after the first few episodes/chapters (or whatever) - eg. Buffy, Angel, Mal, Captain America, Cyclops etc. Whereas Dean DIDN’T step up as leader in the beginning (due to trying to follow John’s lead in S01, and then floundered without John’s leadership/command after that until around mid S04 and through S05. So I think it was because of that I never REALLY considered Dean the leader of the group. Also, there was never really much of a GROUP for the most part, which made the idea of leadership a moot point a lot of the time :p
But yes, since there’s been various groups formed since S04, involving Bobby and Ellen and Jo and Kevin and Cas etc, looking at the bigger picture I can see how Dean DOES seem to have taken on the leadership role with them. And, as someone pointed out before, he is officially the leader in The End, so there’s a definite argument to be made that the instinct or capability to naturally fill a leadership role when he finds himself in a group in need of a leader is probably inherent in him.
I like the distinction between leader and commander :)
Yup, leaders are EQUALS, good :) That makes sense.
I can't find the exact quote for you, but Misha once said they were unsure of bringing Cas back for season GR8. Because it makes no sense to not have Misha in season 8, I always thought he meant when Cas come back in season 7 (besides, it was at that time TPTB started planing season 8 - and Dick's actor once said the changing in showrunner beginning in Adventures in Babysitting - Krissy's episode, isn't it?).
Well… Cas could have died in Purgatory I suppose. It’s theoretically possible they were considering having that last S07 shot of him disappearing effectively his final appearence in the show. It would have been STUPID, but from a narrative POV that moment was a point in which Cas COULD have been written out of the show.
PERHAPS they meant that?
I feel like I remember Misha talking about this uncertainty of Cas being in Season 8 (because I remember him quoting that myself) during the S07 into S08 hiatus, not as something that pre-dated his S07 return…