Melisandre, Stannis, R’hllor, and shadow babies

jeanandtheprouvaires replied to your post “jeanandtheprouvaires replied to your post “Hey Butterfly :) Speaking…”

Wait, so are the shadow babies using Stannis’s “life force”? Do you know if anything has been written on this? i’m fascinated now! thanks so much!

Well, I just wrote something on it, which you replied to. :)  No, but seriously, I don’t know of any detailed studies of the R’hllor-powered shadow magic. But I can tell you what we know:

  • R’hllor is a god of life. Whether there is an actual godlike being out there or whether there is a magical force that is called “the god R’hllor” by those who commune with it is a question, so I’ll leave that alone. But anyway it seems to be powered by and give power to light and fire and life energies. Including sexual energies.
  • Melisandre is called “Melisandre of Asshai” which means she either learned or practiced magic there (there are no native-born Asshai’i). Asshai is often called “Asshai by the Shadow” because it’s by the Shadow Lands, a mysterious shadowy mountainous area. Of the many sorcerers that reside in Asshai, one type is called shadowbinders, of which Melisandre is one. It’s unknown if any other shadowbinders work in connection with R’hllor (Quaithe seems to have no relationship, for one); and it’s possible Melisandre may have taken the shadowbinding magic she learned and associated it with R’hllor herself, since she’s a priestess of R’hllor in addition to being a sorceress.
  • Melisandre says that her shadows are not things of darkness, but rather are “the servants of light, the children of fire”.
  • Melisandre has a fire inside her, most likely located within her womb from the evidence, that provides her with all the nourishment her body needs, so she doesn’t need to eat (although she will to keep up appearances).
  • When Melisandre is heavily pregnant with a shadow baby, she literally shines with light.
  • The shadow creatures that killed Renly and Cortnay Penrose looked like Stannis. (Both Catelyn and Davos recognized this – Cat even sensed Stannis’s presence somehow.)
  • The shadow creatures cannot pass the old spells that protect Storm’s End, which is why Davos had to row Melisandre past the walls, below the castle itself.
  • When Davos talks to Stannis after Renly’s death, he appears to have aged years since the last time he saw him. Stannis can sense the actions of the shadows while he’s sleeping, but thinks they are only dreams.

So this is what I think happens: if a man has sex with Melisandre (no idea if any ritual or potions are required), his “life-fire” – that is, his life energy – is drawn out of him through his orgasm/seed into the fires of her womb, where the shadow is made. (And the energy of this genesis makes her skin shine.) After a time she births this shadow baby (a shadow “given birth by light”), which looks like its father (and has some of his consciousness) but is controlled by her will, and it can be sent to fulfill some purpose (and presumably fades away after that).

From the evidence, two shadow babies are enough to make a man’s “fires burn low” (deplete his life energy), and making another one might draw off too much energy, enough to kill him. It is unknown if “life-fire” can recharge itself after a time, if after months or years another shadow could be made without hurting the man. It is unknown if different men have different amounts of “life-fire” and could make more or less than two shadows before hitting the limit. It is known that it doesn’t have to be “king’s blood” for this process, as Melisandre offered Davos the opportunity to help Stannis via her bed, and Davos is a nobody from Flea Bottom. Also it is known that Melisandre believes the Wall, as one of the “hinges of the world”, has the power to supercharge any shadows she creates there.

Unfortunately we probably won’t get many more details than this, as GRRM believes that fantasy magic should be wild and mysterious and unexplainable, not subject to rules and regulations. There will almost certainly never be any hard-and-fast laws of magic in ASOIAF, so we’ll never get any “Melisandre can do this with this and can’t do that with that” nor any words of spells or anything of the sort. However, it is possible that we may learn that Melisandre’s beliefs that R’hllor creates the shadows and that they are not creatures of darkness/evil are only rationalizations and not actually true. That is, if the shadows not being able to pass through the spells woven into the walls of Storm’s End means anything – although if those spells are like the Wall’s spells, it could be they block all magic, whatever its nature. Hopefully we’ll get some kind of clarification eventually…

anonymous asked:

I should have framed the "inappropriate" in the context of others' perceptions/judgement. I didn't word it properly. In reading, we are invited into other people's thoughts & we are quick to translate that into actions & even quicker in passing judgement. Sansa's thoughts & her silent desires are her only source of agency so of course that couldn't be included by D&D just like Dany could only be exploited not sexually liberated. I shudder to think of her with the Dothraki in s6. GoT=Revenge porn

No worries! I think it boils down to a weird “love/hate” relationship our society has with the sexuality of young women. gotgifsandmusings and theculturalvacuum could probably speak on this better than I, but it seems like a young girl’s sexuality is treated as something to be both desired and reviled. We sexualize young girls in media all the time, but if any of those girls decide to assert their sexual independence, then we suddenly start clutching our pearls.

I think that’s a lot of what is happening with Sansa. It’s like so many readers want to be the one to decide whom Sansa can and cannot desire, ignoring her own choice in the matter. Is Sandor Clegane an “appropriate” object of desire for her? Does it matter?? That’s the choice she made! Will it amount to anything? Maybe, maybe not, but if it’s her decision, then that should be the most important part. Because here is a girl who has spent her whole life being told whom she should and should not desire, and say what you want about her, but she has always been pretty assertive when it comes to who she does and does not want. The only difference is, she is learning what her own boundaries are and what she is and is not willing to tolerate. The Sansa of AGoT was willing to forgive Joffrey much and more simply because he was a hot prince, but the Sansa of TWoW will not allow Harry the Heir to disrespect her no matter how cute he is. She hasn’t changed so much as her standards have. But people get mad at her for being repulsed by Tyrion or not lusting after their own personal fave or whatever. And they begrudge her her own desires simply because they don’t personally approve of her choice. But that also boils down to people simply not believing that Sansa has the brains or wherewithal to make an informed decision. She might have been naive once, but she learned her lesson pretty damn quickly, guys. 

And of course, her ultimate sin, in D&D’s eyes, was rejecting their beloved Tyrion. They have never forgiven her for that, and they have made her pay dearly for it.

theladiesmormont replied to your post “I remember Theon thinking about how he once hoped that Ned would marry him to Sansa…”

If it weren’t for the age difference Arya and Theon might not have been bad. The Iron Islands are horrible but they despaired of Arya marrying a proper lord and she’d rather like fighting and sailing a ship like Asha…

The thing is that marrying the lord of the Iron Isles does not remotely guarantee a chance at being a shieldmaiden (or whatever the ironborn call them, I don’t think there’s an actual term in the books, they’re not even mentioned in TWOIAF). Sure, Asha can fight and sail, but she’s Balon’s daughter– if she were a wife she’d be expected to settle down and have kids. (Which is a major reason she keeps pushing Tris Botley away.) Look at her mother, she may have taught Asha to be strong, but you think Alannys was out sailing and fighting once she was married to Balon? I don’t.

So no, I don’t think Arya would’ve been a good match even without the age difference. (Unless in this AU Theon didn’t inherit and became, idk, a merchant trader and sailed to the Far East and back with his wife and kids like the Summer Islanders do, that might be interesting and appealing to Arya. Maybe in some timeline where the ironborn are not so much viking pirates anymore.)

eclectictsunami replied to your post “I remember Theon thinking about how he once hoped that Ned would marry him to Sansa…”

alys karstark, maybe? or one of the younger mormont girls? could be an interesting AU.

After the attempted match to Robb didn’t go anywhere, Rickard arranged Alys’s betrothal to Daryn Hornwood, so she was already taken. And the younger Mormont girls, Lyra or Jorelle – well, for that you have what Alysane told Asha, that “on Bear Island every child learns to fear krakens rising from the sea”, so I really don’t think a Mormont/Greyjoy match is something that would appeal to either family. But there are probably plenty of other suitable girls of the right age in the North, if Ned had wanted to make a match for Theon.

anonymous asked:

Was a show watcher but I saw people's enthusiasm for Sandor/Sansa & I didn't understand why that was. Read the books and I started questioning why they chose to remove plot lines and characters only to invent new ones that added no value to the story. I don't ship Sansa/Sandor but I saw how important they both are to their characters' dev. I also saw the chemistry/romantic overtones there. For a show that claims to be out there, they shied away from this bec they had no interest in dev these 2

First of all, THANK YOU for realizing that there is a difference between acknowledging that Sandor and Sansa have a profound connection, and “shipping” them. Like, it’s there, just like the connection between Jaime and Brienne. I don’t ship J/B at all, but I STILL acknowledge the effect they have on each other, as most people do. Why the same people can’t make the same distinction with SanSan is beyond me. Anyhoo…

Yeah, when I first watched the show, I definitely saw the SanSan “spark” during the first 2 seasons, but then I just kinda forgot about it after that, since the show seemed to have as well. But then a simple Google search for “Sansa and The Hound” yielded a virtual pandora’s box of goodies! LOL! It more than validated my suspicion that there was definitely something there, and then, upon reading the books, I realized just how much deeper it went (which was lovely). 

And yeah, it does seem kind of weird that a show that pulls no punches when it comes to other “controversial” themes (incest, rape, child murder, etc.) that they would get so pink in the cheeks when it came to an honest, compelling relationship between a grown man and a teen girl. It’s not like anything physical happened between them – the romance and eroticism between them was (for now) purely psychological. Did they really think it would make the audience uncomfortable? Why?? Because it was mutual? It goes back to my theory that showing a woman getting raped in graphic detail is “acceptable” because we all collectively agree that it’s wrong, but a woman willingly reciprocating an older man’s interest is off-limits. 

And yet, they continuously show Sansa getting kissed by Littlefinger and having no visibly averse reaction to it, and that’s perfectly okay? 

I dunno, it makes no sense to me. If they do bring back Sandor on the show (and it increasingly looks like they will), I’ll be curious to see if they will bring him and Sansa back together, and if so, what the “payoff” of that relationship (according to D&D) will be…

There are worse people in ASOIAF. There are rapists and murderers and de-chained Maesters who casually torture people for funsies. There’s Ramsay Bolton and Gregor Clegane and Rorge and Cersei Lannister.

But there is no one so fucking blithely entitled, no one so bone-achingly annoying in their goddamn insistence on projecting their own guilt onto a fourteen-year-old as Jorah Fucking Mormont and the less I have to deal with him and his auto-fellating sob story about Lynesse Hightower that he somehow thinks causes him to deserve Dany’s body the better

So, you may see some extremely shocking things in the show that come up in the next season or two, but I’m not sure you could consider them ‘spoilers,’ because they’re never gonna to happen in the books. They CAN’T happen in the books, because the show and the books have gone down different roads.
—  George R.R. Martin, 6/23/2015