mine: asoiaf*

Why Dany is not a villain

A hero is a villain to someone

I’ve been thinking a lot about the arguments that people use to support villain Dany theories and thinking why this argument always got under my skin and it suddenly struck me. Yes, this line stands true. We know in part, roles such as villains and heroes aren’t ubiquitous in some ways. Tyrion is considered a villain by the smallfolk and the Starks and while we know that he is no villain, most other people do not. The people within the text may not truly know who is the hero of the tale and who is not but the audience certainly will. We have a greater perspective than all the characters put together and therefore we know completely and absolutely who are the heroes. It’s very clear from the text who are the heroes. We know the Starks are heroes. We know that Tyrion if not one already will be a hero just as we know that Cersei, despite her history is not. Why, therefore, do we play obtuse when dealing with Dany’s character?

More so, does being a villain to a group of people therefore then make you a villain? You could easily argue that Sansa is a villain from this basis since she’s believed to have murdered Joffrey. She’s certainly a villain to Cersei at the very least but does this basis, therefore, transform her into a villain? No, we know that to be wrong because we know Sansa to be both kind and good. This is similar to Dany who we know to have a strong love for both justice and humanity, to the point that she pushed back her plans for a Westeros conquest in order to end the slavery within the different areas of Slavers Bay. Yes, Dany may be considered a villain to a wide range of people but considering that these people happily use slavery, are depicted as sexist, greedy and so on, should we even begin to consider this idea that Dany is somehow a villain for this.

Even more importantly and separate from this point, how does Dany becoming a villain even fit or belong to the narrative. What point does GRRM make with doing that to her? I know many people cite the fact that it offers shock value and that the series does not rely on tropes and therefore, makes sense. But, all the shocking moments we have seen were done for a reason. The Red Wedding and Ned’s death weren’t just depicted for shock value but to allow Arya and Bran and Jon and Sansa to take center stage and to lead the change that their predecessors had been so focused on achieving. Ned’s death itself is beyond tropey, we’ve seen it in Harry Potter and Kingsman and other huge series and narratives. The death of a mentor or parent is a massive aspect of many stories. Dany turning into a villain makes no narrative sense. What important message does it give if Dany is turned into a villain? 

So much of his series is based on human perseverance and hope and doing good despite how difficult it is. Being good is hard. Having power and not falling into the same pit as Cersei and other villains we have seen, not allowing that power to corrupt is even more difficult.It is some of these themes that are so central to Dany’s character. What purpose would it, therefore, serve to make Dany a villain?

In addition, all the villains we have seen have been very flat and clearly evil, even Cersei is very clearly a villain. GRRM does not do gray with his major villains. We don’t even have the POV of most of the antagonists and yet we have been with Dany from the beginning. We’ve seen her character grow from a scared little girl to the Mother of Dragons and queen. Seen her grapple with morality and her idea of home and her identity. Seen her, very overtly separate herself from the Valyrians, her ancestors, use of slavery and continuously rejects Viserys way of ruling and dealing. Let’s not even begin to discuss how Dany is likely the figure within these prophecies and how she did the impossible and brought dragons back (which if you’re wondering is a very heroesque type of thing to do) or how the narrative continuously frames her as a hero.

If you still don’t believe me on this then how about on a practical level? The story is drawing closer to the battle against the Others in which it has been shown that Dany will play a part.

That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper’s rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent.

 It was a futile thought. He might as well wish for another thousand men, and maybe a dragon or three.

The story is moving away from the political war and onto the supernatural one in which Dany will establish herself fully as a hero and save the word. 

Now, this isn’t to say that Dany hasn’t done a great many things that are both villainous or wrong or even that she doesn’t walk closer to the edge of darkness in comparison to our other heroes. Dany has and likely will do some more things that will be wrong but this in no way means that she will be a villain or that she should even be considered one

thehound  asked:

why are people so obsessed with what hogwarts house asoiaf characters would be in anyway? i've gotten like 15 asks about it now and i'm just like.... pls stop lmao

Well, you might as well ask why people are so obsessed with sorting any character from any series into Hogwarts Houses. :)  (Except HP, of course.)  People, especially fans, seem to have this innate need to place other people into descriptive boxes – whether the 4 boxes of Hogwarts, the 9 boxes of D&D alignments, the 12 boxes of the zodiac, or the 16 boxes of MBTI. (And sometimes others like Enneagram, the classical 4 elements, etc.) It’s a way of simplifying complex character traits (albeit sometimes to the point of stereotype or caricature), which may help a person better understand and empathize with that character. (Consider one of the first books to popularize MBTI, Keirsey-Bates’s Please Understand Me.)

Hogwarts house sorting in particular is benefited by a couple of facts:

  • When creating the houses and sorting, JKR used a lot of classic personality profiles, including the four elements and the four temperaments, which is a simplification of and/or at the core of and/or easily map to other personality sorting types – so sorting (often stereotyping) is usually pretty easy.
  • Many fans these days read Harry Potter at a very influential age, and therefore both absorbed the concepts of Hogwarts sorting and have very strong Opinions on the qualities of each house.
  • Sorting communities were a huge thing in fandom’s Livejournal days, and I think that’s transferred over to tumblr (although it’s MBTI blogs that seem to be more prevalent, probably due to its pseudoscientific nature and greater number of boxes).

It doesn’t seem to matter that the ASOIAF characters are in a very different world than HP, don’t live in England (modern or otherwise), and would never receive owl letters or go to Hogwarts or get the Sorting Hat plopped on their heads – fans need to know how their favorite characters would get sorted if they were. ;)  So if someone with a decently popular blog can sort a character and back up their choice in a fairly eloquent and reasoned way, with references etc, that’s bound to attract attention and get requests to do it again and again. I mean, I feel your pain – any time I’ve done Hogwarts sorting or MBTI or alignments for a character, I’ve also gotten a dozen requests for more of the same. (I don’t do the zodiac and ASOIAF characters very well, for reasons, but I helped @joannalannister​ a little when she started getting questions on the subject.)

Sansa in particular is interesting in that I’ve seen her sorted into every house, much more frequently and with more dissent than almost any other ASOIAF character.* Ravenclaw as you know is my belief and that of many others, Slytherin is fairly popular (though I deeply disagree with the reasoning), Gryffindor is occasional (and those proponents can get pretty fervent about it), Hufflepuff I’ve seen rarely (and I really don’t understand it at all). I think it’s probably due to how complicated and controversial her character can be… not to mention how people project on her. (Which was the secondary subject of the panel @poorquentyn and I gave at @iceandfirecon - I keep thinking I ought to put up our notes.) People assign her the traits they want her to have, often reflecting their own desires or values. Simplification/stereotyping becomes very difficult when the boxes people want to put Sansa in are so radically different. It’s interesting…

*other divisive ones include Dany (Gryff/Slyth usually), and Arya didn’t use to be (she’s so totally Gryff) but recently the show brought a lot of (very wrong) Slyth proponents, sigh, and I’m sure there are others I can’t think of right now.

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anonymous asked:

Do you think Jon will be made king in the books or is that a show only thing? Love your meta about Jon's name, btw!

First of all, thank you!

To answer your question, Mormont’s raven certainly seems to think so:

“King,” the bird said again.

“I think he means for you to have a crown, my lord.”

“The realm has three kings already, and that’s two too many for my liking.”  Mormont stroked the raven under the beak with a finger, but all the while his eyes never left Jon Snow. - 
ACOK, Jon I  

“Free,” the raven muttered. “Corn. King.”  - ADWD, Jon VIII

He rose and dressed in darkness, as Mormont’s raven muttered across the room. “Corn,” the bird said, and, “King,” and, “Snow, Jon Snow, Jon Snow.” That was queer. The bird had never said his full name before, as best Jon could recall. - ADWD, Jon XII

Gilly seems convinced, too:

“They say the king gives justice and protects the weak.” She started to climb off the rock, awkwardly, but the ice had made it slippery and her foot went out from under her. Jon caught her before she could fall, and helped her safely down. - ACOK, Jon III

When Gilly entered, she went at once to her knees. Jon came around the table and drew her to her feet. - ADWD, Jon II

And considering his subsequent actions, doubtless Alys is in agreement as well:

“Marriages and inheritance are matters for the king, my lady.” - ADWD, Jon IX

All told,  “kings” are mentioned 279 times in Jon’s chapters, and “crown” an additional 29. Naturally, most of these are in the context of discussions about other kings but it’s telling all the same, especially compared to say, Jaime, who has only 162 combined mentions, or Bran who has 74, despite both having as much reason as Jon to be discussing or thinking about kings and kingship (albeit slightly less interaction with kings).  I would argue on a Doylist level, this is a deliberate effort to associate Jon with royalty. The more heavy-handed examples aside, even Jon’s descriptions of his world are filled with crown imagery:

The way up was steep and stony, the summit crowned by a chest-high wall of tumbled rocks. - ACOK, Jon IV

The sky was cloudless, the jagged mountains rising black on black until the very top, where their cold crowns of snow and ice shone palely in the moonlight - ACOK, Jon, VI

The peaked roof was crowned with a huge set of antlers from one of the giant elks that had once roamed freely throughout the Seven Kingdoms…  - ASOS, Jon I

Before them, the ice rose sheer from out of the trees like some immense cliff, crowned by wind-carved battlements that loomed at least eight hundred feet high…  - ASOS, Jon IV

Ahead he glimpsed a pale white trunk that could only be a weirwood, crowned with a head of dark red leaves  - ADWD, Jon VII

Jon is the only POV to consistently use this way of describing his environment, so it’s less likely to be a predilection of the author; this is GRRM, these choices are rarely a coincidence.

A plethora of meta has been written about this already, but imagery aside I think there is a pretty strong argument in the narrative for Jon ruling in some capacity before the series’ close. For one thing Robb’s will is bound to make a reappearance, though the legality of that will admittedly be complicated by many factors (the fact the Bran and Rickon are now known to be alive, the North backing Stannis, who would not recognize Robb’s ability to legitimize bastards, R+L=J, should anyone learn the truth of that…) Moreover we have this:

The girl who drowned the slaver cities in blood rather than leave strangers to their chains can scarcely abandon her own brother’s son in his hour of peril. And when she reaches Westeros, and meets you for the first time, you will meet as equals, man and woman, not queen and supplicant. How can she help but love you then, I ask you?  - ADWD, Tyrion VI

Young Griff is attempting to usurp Jon’s narrative, but we the readers know Jon is Dany’s brother’s son, and it’s Jon and the North in need of rescuing. This seems like an instance where Tyrion is accidentally prophesying; the HOTU visions introduced Dany to her third husband, her blue rose, her one to love. And she will not meet him as queen to supplicant. They will meet as equals - as queen and king

So, today I saw someone referring to what Daenerys did in Slaver’s Bay as “communist utopia” lmao.

Daenerys: Slavery is bad and should be ended

Antis: Literally what the hell is this communist utopia?!

anonymous asked:

Jon doesn't have to spend rest of his life at WF but the North is his home and place to be. Most likely his Stark family will need him after the war,their homeland will be destroyed. Not Dragonstone or King's Landing or is it just because he can be with Daenerys? Jon would never be happy anywehere else than the North, same as Ned, Arya, Sansa.

Hi anon,

You know Ned spent most of his childhood at the Vale where he was fostered and he has very fond memories of his time there. In many ways he probably takes after Jon Aeryn more than his own father. Arya and Sansa have both live South and Arya has even lived in Braavos. It was not easy and sometimes quite terrible for the two of them given the circumstances that let where they were. 

My point is that they have at least gotten to experience a world outside of the North, for Ned is was a good experience for his daughters not so much. But they know a world outside of their own. Jon has never gotten to experience a world outside of the North outside of its culture. Why shouldn’t he experience that? 

How can you say he wouldn’t be happy if he’s never experienced it. You have to try something before you can say you don’t like it. Who know’s he might actually like it, you know he was born in the South. 

Also, a lot of people want Jon to be Kong of Westeros, if he is he’ll be responsible for everyone in Westeros not just the North and he would have to be a lot more centrally located in order to rule such a large country. He might want to retire in the North, if he lives that long, but he should be allowed to experience a world outside of that. 


anonymous asked:

Say the twincest never happened, and Cersei had at least one legitimate child from Robert. Would the war have happened? Varys definitely wanted to destabilize the kingdom for Aegon to swoop in, but without the incest claims and the subsequent war, how could he have gone about it? Would it have been a more insidious internal meddling?

That hypothetical brings in a political landscape so alien to the original series I can only give a few broad strokes of tension Varys might work at. 

Robert’s not magically going to become a better, more attentive king. Robert and Cersei’s marriage is almost certain to be equally abusive and miserable (even if Cersei gets the radical personality adjustment necessary to make this hypothetical work). Ned’s still going to be inclined to mistrust and dislike the Lannisters. Littlefinger’s still going to attack the Crown’s finances. Doran’s motivation stands. The kingdom more generally is still in a post-rebellion state with a lot of grievances buried only in shallow graves, able to be exploited.

The details, however, are so far up in the air I couldn’t say how Varys would exploit those tensions. As you say, anon, Varys is determined to destabilise the realm and start a war. He’d have to find a way. But I couldn’t possibly tell you what way that might be.

anonymous asked:

I feel robbed by the show. The way dany left Meereen was so rushed. I would have loved to see her rebuilding a bit before she just boarded a ship and said goodbye to daario. I feel like little things like this maybe why show watchers feel dany is a bad person, while I know she would have done more before leaving, all we needed was one scene showing her good will.

Hello anon.

I agree with you, I know Meereen wan’t the best of storylines to put it mildly but it should have had a better resolution. We can deduce from the little information that was given to us that elections where setup and a functioning government was put in place in order to accommodate these election. But I think seeing briefly how a ruling council was left in place, preparations for an election and how the security of Meereen was setup would have been better and more appropriate way to close out on Meereen. Instead of everything worked itself out after the bad guys were disposed of. 

If we want a proper resolution to this arc we’ll have to wait until the books. I can’t imagine GRRM departing Meereen without letting us know what will be done to ensure the continue freedom and safety of the people there. At least so that the freedmen can have a foundation from which to build their new lives. After that it’s up to them. 


anonymous asked:

Is there any chance Jon meets Lady Stoneheart?

I doubt it. I don’t see a need for it, even if Jon’s story takes him south.

First, Jon’s relationship with Catelyn is not a thing that needs to be resolved in and of itself for his story to progress. Rather than being a self-contained problem, this relationship is an important factor under the heading “Jon does not feel entirely welcome at Winterfell.” Since book one, the disapproving, hostile image of Catelyn that lives in Jon’s memory is more significant to him than the actual Catelyn currently hanging Freys in the Riverlands. And so Jon can deal with the broader problem of not feeling entirely welcome at Winterfell without directly confronting what remains of Catelyn.

Second, what would be gained by such a meeting? Of all the Stark PoVs, Jon Snow would be least affected by seeing the change from Catelyn Stark to Lady Stoneheart. If he saw this change, I suspect the bulk of his feeling about it would be “oh no, my siblings would be so upset if they knew.” Why bother? Just have one of Jon’s siblings encounter what remains of their mother instead.

Such a meeting doesn’t help resolve Jon’s character tension, the reveal of Lady Stoneheart wouldn’t be the gut punch it would be for his siblings, any conflicted feelings Jon might have about the violent deaths of the people who murdered Robb can be dealt with independently…I just don’t see why GRRM would work this in.