manderly and the frey pies!

I swear Jon’s playing a war of attrition against Dany.

Nothing like sending her dragons off to a starter war. Hey look, one of them dies. That’s one less dragon against the North. Certainly more dragons won’t die up there… Oh hey, want to sail into White Harbor with me? It’s not like book Manderly didn’t serve Frey pies at Ramsay’s wedding.

Originally posted by klausmikaelson95

Nah. Nothing is going to happen to Dany. She’s going walk right into Winterfell and greet Lady Stark, you know the woman who fed the person who took her home away from her to dogs?

Originally posted by mariquon

Or Arya, who murdered an entire family in revenge for the crimes against her.

I’m sure Bran will just Chaos is a Ladder Dany. That will mess her up.

Originally posted by percellere

Or even Lyanna. If looks could kill, and they do, Lyanna is going to slaughter.

Originally posted by sociallyawkwardgirlstrikes


mhysa-pizza  asked:

what is the frey pie theory?

So, if you recall Davos’s chapters in ADWD, Wyman Manderly had certain visitors: Symond, Jared, and Rhaegar Frey. They were there to return the bones of Wyman’s son Wendel, who had been killed at the Red Wedding, and to make sure House Manderly bent the knee to the Iron Throne.

While the three Freys are guests in White Harbor, Wyman treats them with every honor, promising to betroth his granddaughter Wynafryd to Rhaegar and his other granddaughter Wylla to Little Walder. When Davos presents Stannis’s case to Wyman, the Freys mock him, and give their cover story for the Red Wedding (that Robb had turned into a monstrous werewolf and was slaughtering everyone and they put him down). Wyman pretends to execute Davos on Cersei’s orders (thus proving his loyalty and getting his son Wylis back from being held hostage in Harrenhal), but actually hides him away safe. He then meets with Davos secretly and gives this fantastic speech.

So, after that… the three Freys leave for Winterfell, to meet up with their relatives coming for the wedding of Ramsay Bolton and “Arya Stark”. Wyman supposedly gives them three palfreys as guest gifts when they leave (note a guest gift is the official sign that you are no longer guest and host, and that guest right no longer applies). But despite those fine horses, the Freys never arrive, simply vanishing into the air. Ramsay hunts for them for sixteen days, but there’s no sign of them whatsoever. And Big Walder tells Theon, “I never thought we would [find them]. They’re dead. Lord Wyman had them killed. That’s what I would have done if I was him.”

Then at the wedding feast, Wyman, who had provided the food, presents:

three great wedding pies, as wide across as wagon wheels, their flaky crusts stuffed to bursting with carrots, onions, turnips, parsnips, mushrooms, and chunks of seasoned pork swimming in a savory brown gravy. Ramsay hacked off slices with his falchion and Wyman Manderly himself served, presenting the first steaming portions to Roose Bolton and his fat Frey wife, the next to Ser Hosteen and Ser Aenys, the sons of Walder Frey. “The best pie you have ever tasted, my lords,” the fat lord declared. “Wash it down with Arbor gold and savor every bite. I know I shall.”
True to his word, Manderly devoured six portions, two from each of the three pies, smacking his lips and slapping his belly and stuffing himself until the front of his tunic was half-brown with gravy stains and his beard was flecked with crumbs of crust.

And the pies continue to be mentioned:

“No taste for pork pie, my lord? The best pork pie we ever tasted, our fat friend would have us believe.” She gestured toward Lord Manderly with her wine cup. “Have you ever seen a fat man so happy? He is almost dancing. Serving with his own hands.” It was true. The Lord of White Harbor was the very picture of the jolly fat man, laughing and smiling, japing with the other lords and slapping them on the back, calling out to the musicians for this tune or that tune.

And as the feast winds down,

Lord Manderly was so drunk he required four strong men to help him from the hall. “We should have a song about the Rat Cook,” he was muttering, as he staggered past Theon, leaning on his knights. “Singer, give us a song about the Rat Cook.”

Now, you may remember the story of the Rat Cook that Bran relates back in ASOS:

The Rat Cook had cooked the son of the Andal king in a big pie with onions, carrots, mushrooms, lots of pepper and salt, a rasher of bacon, and a dark red Dornish wine. Then he served him to his father, who praised the taste and had a second slice. Afterward the gods transformed the cook into a monstrous white rat who could only eat his own young. He had roamed the Nightfort ever since, devouring his children, but still his hunger was not sated. “It was not for murder that the gods cursed him,” Old Nan said, “nor for serving the Andal king his son in a pie. A man has a right to vengeance. But he slew a guest beneath his roof, and that the gods cannot forgive.”

Not exactly a pleasant song for a wedding celebration, is it? But as a story of vengeance… a story of the gods punishing those who betray guest right… a story of, well, cooking someone in a big pie and feeding them to their relatives… it’s very appropriate indeed.

Whenever I see people bringing up Ned’s line about the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword about the LF/Winterfell plot and how Sansa wasn’t “honourable” I think of few things:

1) To swing a sword to behead a person you need to be immensely trained for it and it generally is an able bodied man who would do it. History shows it’s actually quite damn hard to behead/execute people. Even Arya didn’t behead LF because she’s not capable of wielding a longsword as heavy as Ice. Bran can’t swing a sword either. Should that be a defining factor for passing a sentence. Ned said the key is looking into the person’s eyes before you kill them, and that Sansa did. One key scene is Ned telling Robert that if he passed the sentence for Lady to be executed he should do it, and Robert walked out of the hall, leaving Ilyn Payne to do it before Ned took it on himself because he qualifies as an able bodied and he can wield a longsword. Ned’s words meant that it shouldn’t become mechanical like Ilyn Payne nor must you take pleasure in it. That’s the essence that really matters. 

 2) Who are we kidding? It was a badly executed plot and characterizations were butchered. I think we can all agree on this because the whole season was terrible. I hated the scene because it dumbed everyone down, relied on a lot of random “shock value” and turning Bran into a convenient plot device and wasn’t as satisfying as I wanted it to be. I wanted it to be a game and tension to build over two people outwitting each other, not having so much plot convenience. I’m pretty sure in the books LF doesn’t survive to make it to Winterfell. He probably dies in the Vale itself because this plot stuck out like a sore thumb. They neglected Sansa’s political storyline in the Vale and gave her f!Arya/Jeyne Poole’s storyline and this is all a butterfly effect. 

3) Arya is not just an executioner and it’s not the act in itself I had a problem with but the part before it and this line after. This is where D&D just don’t get themes. Arya’s arc fights against the notion of being just an executioner because she wants every rung of society to be held accountable, for someone to intervene and prevent injustice. But did they really show what Arya learned about the moral ambiguity of House of Black and White? She shouldn’t be making Frey pies to be “badass”; that’s the Manderlys. Every character’s characterization suffered this season. If people want to get so specific, technically Sansa shouldn’t be framed as someone to doubt as too ambitious or wants the Northern crown enough to betray her family because in the books she just wants to go back home first of all. She would also be a Lannister by name. So until that marriage was annulled she would know the only way to protect Winterfell is to let Jon rule it and she would have experienced what it is like to be a bastard so she would be understanding. You’re getting bare bones at this point. 

4) No one said that Sansa and Arya wouldn’t have issues. It just wouldn’t be this ridiculous to create an anxiety where they’d almost kill each other for “shock value” or plot twists or whatever. It would involve fights, conversations and emotions. It would involve accusations and apologies. It would involve guilt and mourning. Not this weird bullshit so distanced from any emotional outburst until they were on the battlements remembering Ned. And even then, the show somehow forgot Cat. 

5) The line people quote so much of Ned also ignores that he sentenced an innocent man to death because he was a deserter of the Night’s Watch for good reason. He actually saw the Others but no one believed him and by law of the land Ned had to execute him. Jon almost deserted the Night’s Watch once and he actually deserted it to protect Arya in the books and because people betrayed him on the show. Technically by book logic, he will face repercussions despite being resurrected. There’s a flaw even in this system as much as I understand the logic that you shouldn’t dehumanize the act of killing. This happens with every law. It works for a while until a loophole is revealed. 

6) I am constantly upset about what they did to the Starks, especially Bran who has no personality now apparently because D&D don’t get him. He was the sole connection to Northern mythology and now his purpose is mostly for exposition and it infuriates me because Bran? The most powerful in warging and greenseer abilities Stark - Bran is being neglected when Northern mythology anyway always was paid lip service with direwolves. Now, we barely get scenes with them. 

7) For seasons the show neglected Sansa’s importance in the story compared to the books, where even there it’s subtle. So can you blame people for just enjoying the fact that it validates that she is more important than people thought? Not that I think she is more important than Arya and Bran but I think for the political storyline/executive government she is. Though Arya will have a large role to play in forming a system of justice inclusive of smallfolk and Bran too will have a role in rebuildling the North like Bran the Builder and helping in running things in the North as he did with Maester Luwin’s help before. The reason Sansa will be taking on a more pivotal role is because her storyline is basically around that - the politics of courtly life and the toxicity of it - and learning to check her privilege. The problem is that they neglected her character for so long now they have to get by with telegraphing. When rebuilding the system it’s necessary to change it from within and it’s a long term process. Just dismantling it does nothing as seen by Mereen. Where the books are concerned it makes two things clear. First of all, the ruler must not be above questioning and thus there should be a system of law in place to keep their power limited and religion isn’t a way to go about it (as shown by the Faith Militant) nor is vigilantism (emphasized by Lady Stoneheart) a solution.  

8) Why is this discourse a thing? Of all the things to pick apart in this storyline, this is the weakest point being picked on because it rests on certain prerequisites that are flawed in themselves. 

anonymous asked:

Just reread your Winter Queen Essays, great BtW, prompting this Question: Do you think that Wyman Manderly went through all the motions just prior to the Frey boy's departing from his care because he was trying to protect his immediate family from any potential backlash from the Frey pies saga or was it to protect the legacy of House Manderly for his future descendants? Was this a personal attack on the Freys, never meant to see the light of day or would he have publicly reveled in his deceit?

Thanks for the question, Anon.

Oh, I definitely think Manderly was being very careful in how he treated the Freys who came to White Harbor. He knew what revenge he wanted, but I think he wanted to be very clear that he was not some accursed oathbreaker like the Freys; he was going to follow all the rules of guest right, and then take his revenge. He hints as much to Davos at what he is going to do:

“The Freys came here by sea. They have no horses with them, so I shall present each of them with a palfrey as a guest gift. Do hosts still give guest gifts in the south?”

“Some do, my lord. On the day their guest departs.”

“Perhaps you understand, then.” Wyman Manderly lurched ponderously to his feet.

That giving of a guest gift is a very important stage in the host-guest relationship; the act marks the end of a host’s obligation to a guest. Wyman explicitly tells the Freys in Winterfell that he gave his guests “guest gifts” when they left White Harbor, and that “many and more bore witness to our parting”; Manderly was putting on the most obvious show possible to indicate that his obligations as a host - namely, to do no harm to his guests - was at an end. I have no doubt that the minute those Freys made one step outside the gates of White Harbor, Manderly men had them arrested and executed. 

Still, Manderly is not exactly subtle about what he did:

… Wyman Manderly himself served, presenting the first steaming portions to Roose Bolton and his fat Frey wife, the next to Ser Hosteen and Ser Aenys, the sons of Walder Frey. “The best pie you have ever tasted, my lords,” the fat lord declared. “Wash it down with Arbor gold and savor every bite. I know I shall.”

She gestured toward Lord Manderly with her wine cup. "Have you ever seen a fat man so happy? He is almost dancing. Serving with his own hands.”

It was true. The Lord of White Harbor was the very picture of the jolly fat man, laughing and smiling, japing with the other lords and slapping them on the back, calling out to the musicians for this tune or that tune.

And then, toward the end of the feast, he gets even more blatant: 

Lord Manderly was so drunk he required four strong men to help him from the hall. “We should have a song about the Rat Cook,” he was muttering, as he staggered past Theon, leaning on his knights. “Singer, give us a song about the Rat Cook.”

Now, that said, I don’t think Manderly was necessarily going to point-blank tell anyone “Hey, by the way, I killed those Freys and made you eat them”; even drunk, all Manderly does is give broad hints toward it, and he refuses to admit to Hosteen that he did anything to the Freys who visited White Harbor. I think it’s enough for him that he knows what he did, and that he not only stuck himself to all the rules of the host-guest relationship, but avenged his son and all the men who died at the Red Wedding too. Every Northerner knows the story of the Rat Cook, and Manderly would not be similarly cursed; “a man has a right to vengeance”, as that story went, and Manderly had taken his, but had done everything he needed to do as a host before he took it.

The Queen Regent (NFriel)

anonymous asked:

what are some of your favourite and least favourite ASOIAF theories? (if you don't mind?)

Favorite theories (some I believe in, some are just cool, some are HILARIOUS):

  • I love The Nightlamp Theory to bits
  • That TWOW would be released in 2015 (*hysterical laughter*)
  • The Hooded Man is the Blackfish
  • The Green Grace is the Harpy
  • FREY PIES aka Wyman Manderly served human flesh to some Freys and laughed his ass off in the process
  • Lady Stoneheart and the Brotherhood Without Banners will attempt to crash Daven Lannister’s wedding and perform a second Red Wedding on the Freys and Lannisters. Link
  • Jon Snow will be burnt in a funeral pyre and will be reborn. Possibly using Ghost as a sacrifice for his resurrection. I like to call this theory “Ghost is Toast”
  • Arthur Dayne was a Faceless Man and secret ally of Howland Reed. They were the only survivors at the Tower of Joy, and Arthur took on Ned’s face and pretended to be him to cover up their secret alliance. When he was locked in the black cells, he passed Ned’s face off to someone else (who was executed) and escaped.
  • The Grand Northern Conspiracy AKA  The Northern lords are pitting Roose Bolton and Stannis Baratheon against each other in order to free the North and crown either Jon Snow or Rickon Stark as the King in the North.
  • Benjen Stark is dead. Not coming back.
  • Daenerys will destroy the cities of Pentos, Meereen, Yunkai, maybe even Mantarys, and Volantis. She’ll especially be pissed at Volantis and Pentos. Pentos is where the threacherous Illyrio lives. And Volantis is the poster child for a slaver city. Nevertheless, it will be a slaughter for the ones who oppose her, whether they’re slavers or innocents
  • The conversation between Varys and Illyrio that Arya overheard wasn’t about Jon Arryn, it was about Jon Connington.
  • The Classic R+L=J but that’s a given
  • It will never be fully clear who AA/PTWP is, the definition is going to be applicable to a lot of people - Dany, Jon, Bran, even Jaime. 
  • Coldhands is nobody we actually know. He’s just a dude..thing..creature.
  • Ramsay, thinking he defeated Stannis, wrote the the Pink Letter, but Stannis + Manderly are disguised as Bolton soldiers and have infiltrated the castle
  • The faceless men are trying to find out how to defeat Dragons / recreate the Doom by sending “Pate” to the Citadel
  • Arianne Martell is the Younger Queen.
  • Oberyn poisoned Tywin Lannister
  • SANDOR CLEGANE AND GREGOR CLEGANE ARE BROTHERS!!11! (Crackpot theory!) ( some evidence that points to this: “Like I realized that maybe Mya Stone was King Robert’s daughter even though her last name wasn’t Robert.” THIS THEORY IS EVERYTHING)
  • Sansa will never marry Harry. She will, however, end up marrying a Targaryen at the end of everything. Maybe even Jon himself. Otherwise known as the “Sansa’s suitors will follow the pattern of the champions at the Tourney of Ashford “ theory.
  • Rickon’s story is, in fact, a shaggy dog story and will lead nowhere at the end. 
  • Unlikely, but lovely: The High Septon is Howland Reed
  • BOLT-ON (Apply directly on the forehead) aka: Is Roose Bolton a skin stealing immortal creature? (FABULOUS THEORY IS FABULOUS)
  • Satin Flowers has been letting the fires die out in Jon’s room on purpose to enter it more often because he’s super gay and in love with the Lord Commander. This is more of a headcanon than an actual theory. I love Satin.

Least favorite theories:

  • Jon will be resurrected as a wight 
  • Sansa will be a badass warrior queen of the north, taking names and chopping heads (that’s just not Sansa.. although I do think she might be Queen in the North at the end)
  • Daenerys on the IT at the end (Please no)
  • Septa Lemore = Ashara Dayne
  • Jon and Dany will fall in love or whatever (please no)

So I saw a mention of Arya and her list and the choosing whether to act on it being a choice between honour or revenge. I’m not sure that the post was serious but it rubbed me the wrong way because this is only the latest in a series of posts portraying Arya as being about revenge.

ASOIAF is a series where vengeance and justice are closely linked. Justice itself has ties to honour. Is it honourable to let rapists and torturers continue raping and torturing and preying on the smallfolk? If a person is in a position to end abuse, and that action serves to bring justice but also has an element of vengeance how can the two be viewed as separate?

Honour or revenge is a false dichotomy.

The example above is not about Arya. It actually brings to mind Lord Beric and the men Ned sent out to stop Gregor Clegane. Gregor committed atrocities and the men pursuing him were to bring justice. This is only one example but tbh it is really annoying that when men dispense justice, or vengeance, or justice as they see it with an element of vengeance, it is cheered. Think Frey Pies. Wyman Manderly does not get labelled a pyschopath or sociopath. He is badass rather than dishonourable. His vengeance is seen as justice.

The people on Arya’s list are bad people. They have done terrible things. Arya saw them do terrible things and was powerless to stop them. Her list is a cry for control, a prayer that these people will die because it is justice that they die, not just vengeance. The punishment for murderers is death and those on the list have committed terrible crimes.

She does not even plan to do it herself, not from the outset. It is unclear even now how much she intends to do herself given that her fondest desire is to return to her family. It was her mother she wanted, then Jon Snow. She wanted to go to the Wall and only went to Braavos when that was refused her. She feels she has nowhere else to go.

Yes she killed Raff. Yes she may kill others on her list yet, particularly if they are put in front of her but does that mean she lacks honour? I don’t think so. Her father was known for his honour and in killing these people herself she is following his teachings. The Northern way is the old way, they do not use executioners, they look into a man’s eyes before they die. It is horrific for a young girl to be dispensing justice in this way, to be robbed of her childhood but think about it this way. If you would not debate it as honour OR revenge for a man then it isn’t honour OR revenge for Arya either.

It is honour AND vengeance.

The difference between Game of Thrones the TV series and A Song of Ice and Fire for me is:

I think the TV series kind of thrives on cynicism while I always felt a lot of hope in the books. 

The point of Ned dying in the TV show was that he was gullible and believed in the goodness of others too much, not that he loved his family even more than his honor at that point.

The Red Wedding in the show is to shock, and we’ll shock you some more by throwing Robb’s pregnant wife in there to get stabbed to death. There can’t be an avenging spirit like the books getting retribution for these deaths because this is “real” and good guys don’t win. 

The TV series doesn’t show any other lords of the North that are still loyal to the Starks. No Frey pies brought by the Manderlys for you. Because loyalty is a useless emotion, I guess. We must have Sansa all alone and abused, because isn’t her victimhood just so fascinating? 

In the TV show, they don’t show Jon’s conflict in wanting to save his family and his family with the Night Watch and how that ultimately lead to his doom. They don’t show Jon having such a close relationship with his direwolf that the idea he could warg into him seems very plausible. The men who betray Jon are mostly just faceless nobodies because Jon’s relationships were never developed. No Wildlings rally to Jon’s cause because that actually might be hopeful and inspirational. 

I don’t know, maybe I’m moving on from denial to anger right now.