lucerys velaryon

ravenrcnan  asked:

Hi! I just went through your R+L=J tag and I may have missed it, but in case you didn't answer this yet; I recently told a friend of mine about R+L=J (because I love it) and she said she didn't believe it because Jon doesn't look like a Targ, which Aegon and Rhaenys both did, even though they're not from a Targ/Targ relationship. I was wondering what your thoughts are on this? Thanks!

I’m afraid your friend is incorrect about Rhaenys.

Q: Do you have any idea what Rhaenys and Aegon looked like? (Hair color, eye color, etc.)

A: Rhaenys looked more like a Martell, Aegon more a Targaryen.

GRRM, August 26, 2000

Note also that when Rhaenys was presented at court, “Queen Rhaella embraced the babe warmly, but King Aerys refused to touch or hold the child and complained that she “smells Dornish.””

More examples of Targaryen/other relationships where the child took after the non-Targaryen parent:

(art by Douglas Wheatley for The World of Ice and Fire)

Jacaerys, Joffrey, and Lucerys Velaryon, the children of Princess Rhaenyra Targaryen’s first marriage to Laenor Velaryon. While Laenor was a Velaryon and thus of Valyrian heritage and appearance like the Targaryens, he was also well-known to prefer men; the father of Rhaenyra’s sons was almost certainly her protector Ser Harwin “Breakbones” Strong. All three boys had brown hair and eyes, and pug noses, like Strong and unlike their mother or nominal father. But note all three boys were also dragonriders, so a non-Targaryen parent does not prevent that connection.

(art by Marc Simonetti for The World of Ice and Fire)

Aegor Rivers, “Bittersteel”, the bastard son of King Aegon IV (“the Unworthy”) and his mistress Barba Bracken. Per GRRM, “Since his mother was not a Targ, he does not have the coloring. He has the purple eyes, but his hair is black.” (I could also mention another of Aegon IV’s bastards, Brynden “Bloodraven” Rivers, but since he was albino and thus looked like neither of his parents, he’s not really relevant to your question. Also Aegon IV’s three bastards by Bellegere Otherys, “the Black Pearl”, were mixed-race and almost certainly looked more like their mother.)

(art by Mike S. Miller, for the Hedge Knight graphic novel)

Baelor “Breakspear” Targaryen, son of Daeron II and the Dornish princess Mariah Martell. The Prince of Dragonstone and Hand of the King was an honorable and just man, but “too many men looked upon Baelor’s dark hair and eyes and muttered that he was more Martell than Targaryen”. Baelor’s son Valaar also had brown hair like his father, albeit with a silver-gold streak. Also, Daeron’s grandson and namesake, Maekar’s son prince Daeron (aka “the Dreamer” or “the Drunken”) had “common hair” and could pass for non-Targaryen.

(art by Karla Ortiz for The World of Ice and Fire)

King Aegon V (“the Unlikely”) married Betha Blackwood, “known as Black Betha for her dark eyes and raven hair.” The picture above shows Aegon with his and Betha’s three sons, Duncan, Jaehaerys, and Daeron. As you can see, Duncan clearly has his mother’s coloring, Daeron’s hair is a darker silver than usual for a Targaryen, and only Jaehaerys has a fully Targaryen appearance. (Note that Jaehaerys was Rhaegar, Viserys, and Dany’s grandfather.)

Anyway, these are my thoughts: Targaryen coloring is obviously not always dominant in Targaryen/non-Targaryen relationships in both the past and within recent history. Jon Snow looks like his mother Lyanna, with the dark hair and grey eyes of the Starks. Hope that helps!


Prince Lucerys is sent to treat with Lord Borros Baratheon. When he arrives his uncle, Aemond, is already there and the two fight above Shipbreaker Bay. 

Hearing of her son’s death on Dragon Stone, Rhaenyra collapses in her grief. 

“And with his death, the war of ravens and envoys and marriage pacts came to an end, and the war of fire and blood began in earnest.”

The World of Ice and Fire - The deaths of Prince Lucerys and his dragon, Arrax.

Prince Aemond , upon Vhagar , chased down the fleeing Lucerys and his young dragon Arrax. The prince and his dragon— hampered by the storm raging outside the castle walls— both died within sight of Storm’s End, plummeting into the sea.

Artist: Chase Stone

tyrion is not a targ

Non-Targs with white- or pale-blond hair:

  • Tommen Baratheon
  • Marei (who incidentally is almost certainly Tywin’s bastard daughter)
  • Justin Massey
  • Cassella Vaith
  • Edric Dayne
  • Leo Tyrell
  • Kem of the Second Sons

Targ children who have atypical Targ features:

  • Alysanne (blue eyes)
  • Jacaerys, Lucerys, and Joffrey “Velaryon” (brown hair, brown eyes)
  • Elaena (streak of gold)
  • Bittersteel (black hair)
  • Baelor Breakspear (dark hair, dark eyes)
  • Valarr (brown hair, blue eyes)
  • Daeron, Maekar’s son (brown hair, unknown eye color)
  • Duncan (black hair, unknown eye color)
  • Steffon Baratheon (black hair, presumably blue eyes)
  • Rhaenys, Rhaegar’s daughter (dark hair, dark eyes)
  • Jon Snow (brown hair, gray eyes)

Madness from Targ-Targ unions:

  • Maegor
  • Helaena (though trauma-induced)
  • Aegon III (“ ”)
  • Baelor I
  • Maelys I Blackfyre (?)
  • Aerys II
  • Viserys

Madness from Targ-nonTarg unions

  • Rhaegel (who in fact was likely only “simple,” not mad, considering two of his descriptors were “gentle” and “sweet,” and he seemingly had perfectly normal relations with his wife and three children)
  • Aerion (only considered a jackass, not mad, until he drank wildfire, and even that wasn’t until he was 40 years old)

Infant deaths/birth problems from Targ-Targ unions:

  • Jaehaerys I/Alysanne (x4)
  • Daemon/Rhaenyra
  • Aegon IV/Naerys (x4)
  • Aerys II/Rhaella (x8)

Infant deaths/birth problems from Targ-nonTarg unions (excluding those induced by black magic):

  • Viserys I/Aemma Arryn (x2) (note Aemma was half-Targ herself, and Viserys was the result of an incestuous union)
  • Daemon/Mysaria of Lys (note Daemon was the result of incest, and as a Lyseni, Mysaria was of Valyrian descent)
  • Daemon/Laena Velaryon  (“ ” and as a Velaryon, Laena was of Valyrian descent)
  • Valarr/Kiera of Tyrosh (x2) (likely more a result of the stress of the storm/spring sickness than any genetic problems)

And if we exclude Valyrian bloodlines, that leaves Valarr and Kiera as the only Targ-nonTarg union to have any reported problems. Not to mention fully outsourced unions are almost completely problem-free, and quite fruitful:

  • Daeron II/Mariah Martell: 4 children
  • Daemon Blackfyre/Rohanne of Tyrosh: 9+ children
  • Maekar I/Dyanna Dayne: 6 children
  • Aegon V/Betha Blackwood: 5 children
  • Then there’s Aegon IV’s innumerable unknown bastards

I should also add that as first cousins, Tywin and Joanna were genetically incestuous, Joanna is only one of countless women in this series who were perfectly healthy yet died in childbirth, there are more than 13 other characters who are dwarfs, and considering there is no known history of achondroplasia in the Lannisters (or the Targaryens, for that matter), Tyrion’s condition is nothing more than a sporadic mutation.

But y’know, you do you and keep thinking that Tyrion’s appearance and Joanna’s death are the result of him being secretly a Targaryen despite all evidence (AND THE ENTIRE FUCKING NARRATIVE) indicating otherwise.

theasexualscorpio  asked:

Hello! I'm working on a canon-divergent AU fic, and I was wondering...what are acceptable reasons to break a betrothal in Westeros?

Ummm… mostly we just know unacceptable reasons, really. I mean, it depends what you mean by “acceptable”. Just because one party decides to break the betrothal contract doesn’t necessarily mean the other party’s going to be especially pleased by it. And there’s certainly going to be some social criticism, one way or the other. Also, in our-world medieval times, where these could be the reasons to invalidate a betrothal:

  • revelation of an existing betrothal or marriage
  • evidence of infidelity
  • evidence of infertility
  • failure to meet the financial or property stipulations of the betrothal contract

the party whose actions invalidated the betrothal generally had to pay some kind of financial penalty. There could even be a suit for breach of promise.

But I can at least give you some reasons for broken betrothals we’ve seen in ASOIAF:

  • Joffrey Baratheon and Sansa Stark: the treason of Eddard Stark. (“Your Grace, the gods hold betrothal solemn, but your father, King Robert of blessed memory, made this pact before the Starks of Winterfell had revealed their falseness. Their crimes against the realm have freed you from any promise you might have made. So far as the Faith is concerned, there is no valid marriage contract ’twixt you and Sansa Stark.”) Mutual agreement on both sides. (Although Sansa had to make sure she didn’t look like she was pleased by it.) Note that Ned had wanted to break the betrothal based on the revelation of Joffrey’s incestuous parentage, so that would also be a reason to consider a marriage contract invalid.
  • Robb Stark and Roslin Frey: broken by him, because he married Jeyne Westerling instead. Caused the Freys to desert him, and also eventually the Red Wedding, so y’know… not exactly acceptable there.
  • Arya Stark and Elmar Frey: broken by the Freys, after Robb married Jeyne; pretty much mutual (Robb was in no position to complain, and Arya never even knew she was betrothed to begin with).
  • Brienne of Tarth and Ronnet Connington: broken by Ronnet, on meeting her, because he thought she was ugly. No mention of any financial penalties, but certainly the parents were displeased (and Brienne was utterly crushed).
  • Brienne of Tarth and Humphrey Wagstaff: because she beat him in single combat. Mutual, as he had told her he would expect her to not wear armor, and obey his wishes or be chastised, and she said she’d only allow herself to be chastised by a man who could outfight her. No mention of any financial penalties.
  • Maegor Targaryen and Rhaena Targaryen: not sure how definite the betrothal actually was (whether it was just proposed or what), but it was broken by the High Septon on the grounds of incest.
  • Duncan Targaryen and the daughter of Lord Lyonel Baratheon: broken by him, because he married Jenny of Oldstones. Which started a mini-war because of the insult to the Baratheons.
  • Jaehaerys Targaryen and Celia Tully: broken by him, because he eloped with his sister Shaera. Caused major offense to the Tullys, though it didn’t go as far as war.
  • Shaera Targaryen and Luthor Tyrell: broken by her, because she eloped with her brother Jaehaerys. Ditto re the Tyrells.
  • Daeron Targaryen and Olenna Redwyne: broken by him, because he preferred the company of his boyfriend. It’s not said how offended the Redwynes were, but Olenna likes to say she was the one who put an end to the betrothal.

(Also, several betrothals broken by the death of one of the parties before the wedding: Alys Karstark and Daryn Hornwood, Brienne of Tarth and the younger son of Bryen Caron, Robert Baratheon and Lyanna Stark, Catelyn Tully and Brandon Stark, Arianne Martell and Viserys Targaryen, Viserra Targaryen and Lord Manderly, Laena Velaryon and the son of a former Sealord of Braavos, Lucerys Velaryon and Rhaena Targaryen, Jacaerys Velaryon and Baela Targaryen, Tywald Lannister and Ellyn Reyne.)

Oh, and note that according to one rumor, Rhaenyra Targaryen tried to seduce Criston Cole because she hoped if her betrothed Laenor Velaryon found out she was not chaste, he would break their betrothal. (She didn’t want to marry him, as he was gay.) Though whether she was a virgin at her marriage or not, she and Laenor were married anyway.

Anyhow, hope that helps!

anonymous asked:

If Elia had been unavailable(already married, dead, whatever) who would Rhaegar have married? I'm assuming Aerys would have continued to refuse Cersei out of pure spite but surely his heir needs a wife.

Thanks for the question, Anon.

Answering this question requires an understanding of what Aerys wanted in a daughter-in-law. I talked about this before, but it’s a point worth repeating that I see Aerys as having two fundamental requirements for Rhaegar’s wife. One, the maiden had to be of eminent, Targaryen-acceptable descent; two, she had to be as powerless as possible, to prevent Rhaegar using her family’s strength to stage a coup against Aerys himself. Hence, Aerys had tried for a Targaryen sister (the two of them having no power other than what the king their father gave them), probably a Baratheon daughter of Lord Steffon (the king’s cousin and childhood friend would not help his daughter conspire against Aerys), and a Volantene maiden (presumably thinking of the poor but proud Valyrian-descended families living behind the Black Walls and the isolation faced by many an Essosi bride come to Westeros). This was also what I think made Elia an acceptable choice: Dorne’s relative weakness compared to the other constituent regions of Westeros and Elia’s descent from Princess Daenerys made her a fitting choice to be Rhaegar’s wife.

Without Elia, the king’s choice for his son’s bride becomes a good deal harder. It seems strange to me that, in the (admittedly little) known about Rhaegar’s marriage, House Velaryon was never mentioned, even to say it had no daughters to give Rhaegar. Not only was a scion of House Velaryon more than qualified as a nuptial choice for a Targaryen crown prince - two Velaryons had served as queens, while other Velaryons had married into the dynasty before and after the Conquest - but Lord Lucerys Velaryon was Aerys II’s master of ships and noted as one of the three lords “chief amongst the Mad King’s supporters”; it might be reasonable to guess that Aerys II would have thought a Velaryon daughter would be a safe choice for his hated son, since Lord Lucerys would never conspire against the king he supported so well.

Perhaps, interestingly enough, he would have chosen Ashara Dayne. True, the Daynes are not a Valyrian-blooded family (unless some descendant of that Princess Daenerys married into the House in the roughly century or so before Rhaegar was wed, or some other Valyrian blood trickled down through a more distant marriage), but a Dayne-Targaryen match has precedent; Maekar Targaryen married Dyanna Dayne and by her had, among others, Aegon V (though Dyanna was dead by the time Maekar took the throne). The Daynes are nicely old and distinguished, but again, not particularly wealthy or powerful; Rhaegar might have a difficult time raising a coup d'état against his father with only the levies of House Dayne.

The Queen Regent (NFriel)

anonymous asked:

Elia marries baelor hightower. Who else might Rhaegar marry?

Thanks for the question, Anon!

So Elia marries Baelor Hightower … I’m assuming we’re still confining our thinking to when Rhaegar actually did get engaged/marry (~277-280 AC) and that nothing else in the timeline changed as a result of Elia becoming Hereditary Lady of the Hightower. If that’s the case, then there are a few options for the melancholic dragon prince.

But before we get into options, we should remember what Aerys (because it is almost certainly Aerys making the decision) was looking for in a bride. Aerys was intensely paranoid of his son rising up against him, and did not want a wife that would bring power and wealth to aid him in this (especially if her father happened to be his deeply mistrusted Hand, Tywin Lannister). The King needs a woman who has little power and influence on her own. A bride from the Free Cities would have worked well to this end; far from home and with no natural friends and allies in Westeros, Essosi brides can find themselves scapegoats (like Lady Serala Darklyn of Myr) or can actually leave Westeros to return to their homelands (like Larra Rogare and Mellario of Norvos). In the end, Elia was also attractive for this reason: Dorne being poor and thinly peopled, and the Martells being inextricably linked to the Targaryens since the twin marriages of Daeron II and Princess Daenerys,  Aerys could rely on Dorne’s loyalty - and not worry about an uprising from them later.

With these sort of requirements in mind, who would Aerys have looked for to marry his son? We must suppose the Velaryons had no eligible daughters, since a Velaryon maiden would have made a traditional, trustworthy (Lucerys Velaryon was his master of ships), Targaryen-related bride for Rhaegar. But one interesting choice might be Ashara Dayne. Ashara is undoubtedly beautiful, a Dayne-Targaryen marriage has precedent (Aerys’ great-grandmother was Dyanna Dayne), and the Daynes are sufficiently old and exalted but not particularly wealthy or powerful. Additionally, Ashara’s brother Arthur was a preeminent member of the Kingsguard (and Rhaegar’s closest friend), ensuring further loyalty to the Targaryen regime. Aerys may not have wanted to create a Dayne power bloc, especially given how close Arthur and Rhaegar were, but Ashara would still make an acceptable match.

There are other ladies with Targaryen marriage (or at least betrothal) precedent - Malora Hightower, Mina Tyrell, maybe Lysa Tully (though she’s a little young - Catelyn would have been betrothed to Brandon around this time) - as well as potential ladies from other houses (like House Redwyne), but these are potentially too powerful for Aerys’ liking. I think, with no other known ladies, Ashara would have made an acceptable choice.

(You may be interested to know that we the members of the blog had a semi-vigorous debate as to the marriages not just of Rhaegar but of all three of Aerys’ children. Many houses were traded, many advantages discussed.)

The Queen Regent (NFriel)

Women of House Targaryen

Lady Rhaena Targaryen, also known as Rhaena of Pentos, was a daughter of Prince Daemon Targaryen and Lady Laena Velaryon. Her twin sister was Baela Targaryen. Rhaena was born in Pentos in 116 AC. In 117 AC, she was presented at court by her father, Prince Daemon Targaryen. In 118 AC, with the blessing of King Viserys I Targaryen, Rhaena was betrothed, at the age of two, to Prince Lucerys Velaryon, her cousin. Rhaena and her twin sister, Baela, each had a dragon egg. When Rhaena’s egg hatched the hatchling was unhealthy and died within hours of emerging from the egg. Baela’s hatchling dragon was healthy, however. Before the civil war an egg from another clutch, laid by Syrax, was given to Rhaena, and it was said that she slept with it every night and prayed for a dragon to match her sister’s.

During the Dance of the Dragons, Rhaena was chosen to accompany Prince Joffrey Velaryon to Gulltown for their protection, although they were told it was to defend the Vale against King Aegon II Targaryen’s dragons. Rhaena brought three dragon eggs with her to the Vale where she prayed nightly for their hatching. Eventually she bonded with the dragon Morning, towards the end of the Dance of the Dragons.

Rhaena was married Ser Corwyn Corbray, by whom she had no issue, and later Garmund Hightower, by whom she had six daughters.

Myrish lace Lady Mysaria would have worn, Bibi Bachtadze

Mysaria was a dancer from Lys, she was taken as a lover by Prince Daemon Targaryen in King’s Landing, and she quickly became his favorite. Mysaria became pregnant with Daemon’s child while living at Dragonstone. Daemon gave her a dragon egg for the child, which angered King Viserys I Targaryen. The king ordered Daemon to return the egg and send Mysaria back to Lys. On her return to Lys, she lost the child during a storm on the narrow sea.

During the Dance of the Dragons civil war, Mysaria became Daemon’s mistress of whisperers and was involved in the assassination of Prince Jaehaerys, a son of King Aegon II Targaryen, when Prince Daemon desired revenge for the death of his stepson Prince Lucerys Velaryon. She was Daemon’s go-between, a “pale stranger” whom he trusted, who hired the assassins, Blood and Cheese.

Other Lyseni prostitutes and her rivals dubbed her Misery, the White Worm, because of her very pale appearance and her reputation

anonymous asked:

Why do you think no one called Robert a kinslayer for killing Rhaegar, but Robb was called kinslayer for killing Lord Karstark, even though they were more distant kin than Rhaegar and Robert?

This is a very interesting question that really got me thinking, thank you for asking.

You’re right, there’s a confusing inconsistency there. In case there are those who haven’t examined their family trees before, let’s do that first.

Stark and Karstark are distant kin.

The Karstarks are descendants of the First Men and have the blood of the Starks of Winterfell in their veins from a thousand years before. Their founder was Karlon Stark, who put down a rebel lord and was granted lands for his valor. The castle he built was named Karl’s Hold, but that soon became Karhold, and over the centuries the Karhold Starks became Karstarks. [x]

While I’m sure there have been several marriages between Starks and Karstarks over the centuries, Robb and Rickard (Karstark) are not that close of a “kin.”

Robb’s father was a Stark, obviously, as were both of his paternal grandparents. (Rickard Stark was born a Stark, as well as his wife Lyarra, who was Rickard Stark’s first cousin once removed. And her mother was a Flint.) Robb’s mother was a Tully, as was his maternal grandfather, and his maternal grandmother was a Whent of Harrenhal.

Keep reading


The Dance of the Dragons meme: 5 relationships: (4/5): Rhaenyra and her sons. (x)

arriviaderci  asked:

Hi, I was wondering what the requirements are in AWOIAF for you to be given the title Prince/Princess? I understand children of princesses married to lords don't get the honorific but what about princes? Like Prince Daemon's twins by Laena Velaryon only being referred to as Lady Baela and Lady Rhaena and yet Viserys II's children (back when he still wasnt king) were all called Prince and Princess. Hope you can enlighten me, thanks!

It’s… complicated. Being named Targaryen seems to be part of it. Like, if you’re a Targaryen, you can be called a prince even if you’re a grandson of the king and way down in the line of succession (the future Aegon V for example). On the other hand, the children of princesses who marry out are never called prince or princess even though they’re also grandchildren of the king. (Elaena’s Penrose children, Rhaena’s Hightower children, Rhaelle’s Baratheon children, etc). That is, except in the case of Rhaenyra’s Velaryon children – Prince Jacaerys Velaryon, Prince Lucerys, Prince Joffrey, etc. Although it could be relevant that Rhaenyra was the Princess of Dragonstone and King Viserys’s chosen heir, and Jace was her chosen heir, so.

Regarding Baela and Rhaena, they are specifically called “Lady” several times; however:

Lady Daenaera was a cousin to Alyn Oakenfist, fathered by his cousin Daeron, who died fighting for him in the Stepstones. A surpassingly beautiful child, Daenaera was but six when the princesses Rhaena and Baela presented her to the king—the last of a thousand maids who had been presented him at the great ball of 133 AC. –TWOIAF

…it seems that they can also be referred to as princesses. Which goes back to the “grandchild named Targaryen” rule, but also makes things more complicated. Also note their mother and uncle, Laena and Laenor Velaryon (children of Princess Rhaenys Targaryen), are most frequently called Lady and Ser, but there’s a few Prince Laenor mentions as well.

Also, there are apparently no Targaryen-named descendants who aren’t within a degree or two of the king (because of the incest and various tragedies), so we really don’t know what the title of people like that might be (like, say, if Duncan and Jenny had grandchildren).  Basically it seems the answer is “whatever GRRM wants”, there’s not really any consistency. Unless the exceptions with Rhaena and Baela and Laenor are TWOIAF typos? I really don’t know. Honestly if I were writing fic, I’d just go with whatever seemed right at the time, with probable exclusion of royal descendants not named Targaryen.

Now, in the Baratheon dynasty, note that Robert could have made his brothers princes when he came to the throne (as Robb did with his brothers and sisters). But he didn’t, and it’s a question as to why, but I’ve tried to analyze it a few times. Anyway, for that you can assume the titles Prince/Princess would just apply to Robert’s (reportedly) legitimate children, and eventually their children. Excepting Myrcella, only not, or maybe, because…

Dorne is a principality, and all of its ruling family appear to be named Prince/Princess. That is, those within a certain degree of the ruling Prince/ss, namely their children and siblings. Although there is a Ser Manfrey Martell, apparently Doran’s cousin, but of what degree we don’t know – he may be a great- or great-great-grandson of a ruling Prince/ss, even. We don’t know what degree it is where the titles stop, so it’s uncertain what Myrcella and Trystane’s potential future children might be titled, after Arianne inherits. (In a world where nothing terrible happens to any of them, of course.) I’d guess prince/princess, but as for their children, no idea.

Anyway, just remember that GRRM deliberately decided not to use a broad span of noble titles (no Earl/Duke/Marquess/etc), just King/Queen, Prince/Princess, Lord/Lady (for great houses, major houses, and minor houses), Ser/Lady (for landed knights and standard knights), and Master/Lady.  That’s about it, sorry I couldn’t help more.


→ The Princess and the queen, or the Blacks and the Greens (Part I)
 I) King Viserys’ death, Queen Alicent’s concil
 II) Rhaenyra’s stillborn daughter
 III) Rhaenyra’s council
 IV) Jacaerys’ advice
 V) Brother and sister
 VI) Prince Lucerys is killed by prince Aemond

…. Caroline Goodall as Alicent Hightower (Green)

….Megan Follows as Rhaenyra Targaryen (Black)

….Janet McTeer as Rhaenys Targaryen (Black)

…. Toby Regbo as Jacaerys Velaryon (Black, Rhaenyra’s eldest son)

….Ben Lamb as Aegon II (Green)

…. Tom Felton as Aemond Targaryen (Green, Aegon’s brother)

….Oscar Kennedy as Lucerys Velaryon (Black, Rhaenyra’s son)