lilith sternin crane

(This post is to counter some of the hatred I’ve see directed towards Lilith) Whether you want Frasier and Lilith to be a thing or not isn’t the point of this post, keep in mind. (Though, In my honest opinion, Frasier and Lilith will always love each other down deep. They just don’t want to set themselves up to be hurt again. Yet I do believe that Lilith and Frasier have done a lot of maturing, by the end of Frasier, and might have worked if they tried. That aside,) Please know that I’m not bashing Frasier or any of the characters, because they DID all mature over the course of series. I’m just trying to make a point and focus more on the past, and things I personally noticed, and hatred I have observed from fans of Frasier(specifically Lilith bashers).


Okay, we all know Lilith cheated on Frasier, and did some things like withholding sex as a form of manipulation, but Frasier nearly had a fling with Nanette and started kissing her right in front of Lilith(before recklessly trying to get back with Nanette in his series.) And what about when Clifford and Norman lied that Rebecca had the hots for Frasier? Frasier simply left a letter (didn’t have the guts to speak to Lilith face-to-face unlike vice versa) and was ready to dump her for the simple prospect of a relationship with another woman, based on nothing but a rumor. After that, he led Lilith on with a lie, upsetting her by saying that he had had an affair with Rebecca when he hadn’t(there was no reason to do that, because that is basically playing with Lilith’s feelings). And I can almost guarantee he would have probably completely dropped Lilith without a second thought in a heartbeat, if Rebecca had told him that she returned his feelings. Of course, if that had happened, Frasier would have done the same thing to Lilith as Lilith would eventually do to him, and would come back weeks or months later begging Lilith to give him another chance, that he just needed to take some time to think. 


Sure, Frasier didn’t actually cheat on her in that scenario, but, again, the thought and full intent was obviously there, along with multiple times Frasier looked at other women.


And what about Frasier constantly lying and withholding information about past relationships and being neglectful towards her(that stuff rubs off)? What about allowing his friends to tease, ridicule and pick on Lilith, hardly ever doing or saying anything to defend her, but in fact even joining in so many with his own cruel jokes and seemingly having been encouraging them, despite her obvious discomfort. He was a psychologist, yet he claimed they “were just having a little fun”. (Excuse the kiddy term, but that is pure bullying, no other explanation, because it clearly made Lilith feel uncomfortable). He knows how much Lilith internalizes anxiety and stress and her feelings. He knows how well, and more importantly how much she hides her innermost feelings, and keeps things to herself. She isn’t the most expressive person, as shown with her overbearing Mother, until she’d had enough. 

While Lilith will state her mind without hesitation, her feelings are a different matter entirely. She didn’t say she had “felt alone for so long”(or something like that) for nothing. See, Lilith had obviously began to feel neglected in her relationship with Frasier, like she wasn’t being heard, like Frasier didn’t really care about her anymore. Of course, being as prideful as he is, he didn’t really want to see it, without a nudge. It’s hard enough for Lilith to hold back around Carla, but that was Lilith’s husband! And what did he do? Well, for one, Frasier was constantly at Cheers, was spending less and less time with her, often tried to avoid her, and typically took the sides of the people around him to make fun of her for being stoic, even basically sided with calling her a robot(basically saying she wasn’t human), isolated her, acted as though she didn’t have feelings, and completely invalidated her as a person at points(Frasier’s family also does it, even though she’s just trying to be sociable. I know it’s supposed to be comedy, but some of those scenes… They kind of bother me, and I can’t help but feel bad for Lilith as as character. Not to mention that in Cheers, Lilith was even called “(like?) anorexic” once.). She says herself in Cheers that she doesn’t have many friends, and that she isn’t too loved by many. “Just having a little fun” my foot. In fact, it’s hinted she wants to believe that she doesn’t cry, when Frasier said that she calls her tears “drops of salt water” or something to that degree. 

Also, has anybody considered that Lilith might just be so emotionally repressed because her mother was so emotionally controlling? To the point she wasn’t able to express herself. That kind of blatant trauma sticks with people throughout many years, and potentially their life, and you would expect Frasier to be a little bit more compassionate and understanding, and at least try. He too even admitted that he was probably part of the reason that Lilith had seeked love(which he had neglected her of) in the arms of another man. Why does everybody criticize Lilith for cheating one time? Should that really be held against Lilith for the rest of her life, when Frasier himself had some contribution to it? I don’t believe that Lilith should be hated for that, since many characters on the show have engaged their selves in numerous relationships. If I’m not mistaken(though I may not be remembering correctly), it was Martin that even tried to carry on a threesome at one point. And then there’s Roz(though I don’t quite recall her cheating on anybody, though maybe, I’m mistaken again), and ESPECIALLY SAM, (who I can’t emphasize enough). Why is Lilith’s mistake(that she obviously regretted a lot) so unforgivable, but nobody else’s are? I love Frasier and his family, but they are hypocrites(mostly Frasier) if they think that Frasier was completely innocent, and that Lilith was the worst relationship Frasier had. Honestly, I think that Lilith is the best woman Frasier has had, even if it’s only as a friendship at this point. Because he himself says that she knows him better than anybody else. They are inseparable when it comes down to it. They are competitive in a healthy way. They had the same interests, were both psychologists, and above all respected each others’ differences and pushed them aside without question for their son, and did what they could, wanting nothing but the best for him(ignoring that black eye incident, because… um… *cough*) 

At least Lilith was as honest as she could be about cheating on him, and confronted him face-to-face and honestly(before Frasier tried to guilt trip her by acting like he was going to jump out of a window. She knew he wouldn’t, he knew he knew he wouldn’t, but he sat there and caused a huge ruckus in the street. That was a pure attempt at manipulation).

That aside, what about how Frasier is constantly hooking up with people, and even once tries to set up several dates, over the course of the series, causing a lot of women to get mad at him. I don’t want to say that he’s a bad person, but he is undoubtedly a womanizer. And likely has hooked up with even more women than the number of men Lilith has hooked up with.

Implied by Cheers, that bad experience with the other doctor only seemed to reassure her of just how much in love she was with Frasier, as she gave that whole speech to Sam about wanting Frasier back). They were actually back together by the end of Cheers, but… well… to start the new show, I believe it was partially Kelsey Grammer’s decision to have Lilith and Frasier not together anymore, though Bebe Neuwirth said she thought Frasier and Lilith should have stayed together.

Frasier and Lilith were equals, and both made mistakes, but I don’t think they should be condemned for those mistakes, because those mistakes are what helped them grow as people. Lilith is not a bad person, nor is Frasier. They are both very human, respectively so and I that’s one thing I love about both Frasier and Cheers. (Sorry I keep getting Frasier the show and Frasier the character mixed up, so it may be hard to tell the difference… xD)

Somebody said that cheating and one night stands are not mistakes, but this is what I said:

A mistake can also be something you simply wish you hadn’t done, something you didn’t fully consider the consequences of. Maybe you were sure of something at the time, but then after everything is said and done, you realize you were "mistaken” on what you were really getting yourself into. She felt neglected by Frasier, but trying to involve herself with the other doctor…  She herself realized it was the worst person she could have went off with. She didn’t know how crazy he was, or really that he was crazy at all. She thought that he would actually care about her unlike Frasier seemed to, but it turned out far worse than Frasier did. Yes, even people that have one night stands refer to it as a mistake. So… A “mistake” can be different than an “accident”, and I never claimed their actions to be by accident.

Somebody else said: Also, can we also point out that Frasier abandoned Lilith at the hospital and therefore missed the birth of his own son?  

And somebody else pointed out that Lilith abandoned Fredrick, but in the end, Lilith ended up being the one left by herself to raise Fredrick alone, because Frasier decided to move from Boston to Seattle, and leave them both, while Fredrick was still really young. Sure, Lilith may not “best” mother out there, but she obviously still tries her best and cares for him despite the possible insecurities she may feel in looking after him. Being a single mother can be extremely stressful and hard to deal with at times, so I think she does deserve some credit.

People say that Lilith is a cold fish, BUT:

  • Lilith dragged Frasier “Bah humbug” Crane to a bar late Christmas Eve/Early Christmas morning full of Christmas spirit to hand out presents and be with their friends on the holiday and she’s Jewish
  • Lilith went to a slumber party to cheer up Carla even though Carla doesn’t really like her
  • Lilith took the time and effort to give Rebecca a good bachelorette party even though Rebecca put Lilith’s together at the last minute
  • She was emotionally devastated when her rat died and wanted to give it a proper burial
  • She was incredibly excited to be pregnant with Frederick
  • She took voice lessons, though she was already a talented singer, so she could sing to her son
  • and when she did it was beautiful and poignant
  • She showed Frasier physical affection extremely frequently when they were together
  • She shows Frasier’s family affection when she comes to town
  • She had pictures of herself lying seductively, but fully and modestly clothed, on bearskin rug taken and gave them to Frasier as a gag gift
  • She laughed at Maris’s ridiculous wedding vows
  • She became lonely and vulnerable after she and Frasier divorced
  • She cried when her husband left her for another man
  • She hugs Frasier often even after they’re divorced
  • Frasier and Lilith tell each other they love each other after they are divorced
  • Lilith loves Frederick so much
  • She cried at Frederick’s bar mitzvah 

I really have nothing to say about this.  I just laugh hysterically every time I see it.  Because the force of throwing a stack of magazines makes tiny little Bebe lose her balance and fall down.  And you know that was an accident because she pops right back up like it didn’t even happen.  I seriously can’t stop laughing.

I was having a bad day and then my best friend, Julie, made this for me.  Because she loves me so much <3