The more I hear about Marvel comics the happier I am that Feige was able to separate the MCU from them.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m furious at Marvel comics right now. Furious at what they’ve done to Steve, Carol, Tony and Thor. Furious at how gimmicky Civil War 2 was. Furious that they absolutely refuse to take accountability for their dwindling sales and put on their big boy pants, admit something is broken, and then fix it instead of trying to push yet another event (Secret Empire) that no one wants, while actually blaming DC for outselling them (Jesus Marvel, grow up!).
That said, comics, when they’re good, can be pretty amazing. Let me share parts of my favorite comic series with you, to illustrate what I mean.
Man Out of Time by Mark Waid is a retcon of the Avengers finding Steve in the ice and his adjustment to the 21st century. When Steve first wakes up he’s certain that he belongs in the past, not the present, and is determined to return to it by any means necessary so Tony takes Steve under his wing and shows him all the marvelous things about the 21st Century to try and help him adjust. The thing that MOST impresses Steve about the future is the strives made towards gender and racial equality…
Steve does get the opportunity to return to the past, and what he finds when he gets there is that he HATES it, particularly in regards to inequality and racism. The past freakin’ sucks…
And so, after some clever maneuvering on Steve’s part he returns to the present to save the Avengers (who were in jeopardy) and is welcomed among them with open arms…
I wont speak for all comic fans, but for me, the biggest disappointment in recent Marvel storytelling is that I know they can do better, I know what they’re capable of and it’s better than what they’re currently giving us.
But yeah, I agree that Feige is separate so we’ll never have to see Hydra!Cap within the MCU.
I'm sorry, did you say Barney was the bad decision Barton? Let me clarify why that's wrong
Barney leaves the circus instead of staying with Swordsman and Trick Shot, who he knows are criminals and want to control Clint. He invites Clint to join the army with him and start life on the smart path towards education
Clint refuses but changes his mind too late
Barney joins the army and then the FBI and goes under cover to take down a criminal
During which Trick Shot and Clint rob the criminal and shoot Barney
Barney recovers and goes undercover AGAIN to take down a racketeering ring and Egghead. He brings in the avengers to help stop egghead from killing thousands
He dies for this. He dies saving the avengers.
Clint meanwhile works for criminals, not as a spy but WITH them. He joins Natasha and is still a criminal. He joins the avengers but lies about his identity to hide his past. The avengers KNOW who Barney is, but don’t know who Hawkeye is.
While Barney is gone, Clint gets with Janet while she’s dating Hank, which carries on later to cheating on Jessica Drew
Barney is brought back to life by Helmut Zemo, who trains him with the now cancer ridden Trick Shot, to become a master archer. For years Barney is under Zemos wing. He’s instilled with this hatred for his brother.
When Barney and Clint do finally cross paths, Clint beats him. Barney, then donates bone marrow to save Clints sight and is jailed in Avengers tower.
Months later, Avengers tower collapses, Barney is critically injured, kept alive through machines. Norman Osborn finds him and has him fully healed. He joins Osborn because he owes him a debt.
At this point it’s brought up that despite SAVING Clint from going BLIND, Clint never even visited his brother in the ward. He just left him there.
Not only that, he stole all Barney’s money from his time with the FBI.
does he give it back? No, he buys a car and a new home and apartment building.
After being off world and succumbing to homelessness, and starvation because remember, Barney has NO MONEY. He even takes beatings for food money. Finally, he moves in with Clint, who still talks down to him.
Barney meets Simone and they become a family and move away, with HIS money restored.
Barney has never killed anyone, much less a friend, and has sacrificed his life for people he didn’t know. Never cheated or put someone else who’s dating in that situation
Never hit a significant other. He took in two kids and raised them as his own
What would you say is the main difference between MCU Tony and Bucky and 616 Tony and Bucky? I mean, they're the same characters, so there's obviously gonna be key components that stay the same, but I wonder (since I'm not as familiar with the comics versions) what you think the main changes are? If they were put in an AU, would it be possible to distinguish between the different versions?
First of all, I am
no expert on comics and have by far not read all there is.
As you said, they
are AU versions of the same character, so there are a lot of
similarities. MCU was based on comics, but with the MCU’s popularity,
they also influence each other. So there is no clear line to say
“this is only true for one of them”, especially since it
might be added into the other canon later.
Both canons also
have the fact that they are written by multiple people. In comic
canon, the writers change, and the history of the character gets
changed often enough. It can happen because a writer wants to take it
into a different direction than the one before, or because someone at
marvel thinks something needs to be changed.
In MCU, the movies
are written by diferent people, and I guess some things are dropped
to make the plot work in the runtime, or push it into a direction for
following MCU stuff.
So there is enough
discourse about which part of canon people accept as true. There are
comic runs or behaviour fans just ignore as too ooc to follow, or
things said in movies for a quick joke that seem fine in the context
of it being just a movie, but seem ooc for the character.
Both Tonys also play
the role of “standard rich guy”, and while with inner
monologue in comics it is often made clear that it is a role he plays
that is not necessarily how he really is, movies have less insight
into his head, so it is left a little more vague how much of his
behaviour is playing a role and how much is not.
So, even the
interpretation of the character in one universe may vary.
That said, here are
some differences in character that seem consistent to me:
616 Tony really
really doesn’t like killing people. He may do it if left with no
different option, but he usually tries to save everyone, even the bad
(from Iron Man v4 issue 6)
MCU Tony shows some
of this, as the Avengers movies always also show them trying to
protect and save civillians. In a deleted scene of IM1 he also tries
to save Stane. But he also kills the people terrorizing Gulmira, the
guards when breaking into the Mandarin’s base, and the extremis
people and shows no remorse.
616 Bucky on the
other hand really doesn’t mind killing people. After remembering who
he is, he still flees from Steve, but also actively attacks hydra
bases, and pretty much kills a lot of them. This attitude also
continues later when he is doing spy stuff with natasha again, and
only changes in Thunderbolts vol 3, where he actively tries to stop
his teammates from killing people (possibly after his brief space
adventure where he had a sudden romance and the relization that
killing is wrong, even if they’re bad guys, but it is one of those
story arcs some people ignore because it was weird and at least a
While the time after
CA TWS isn’t shown much for MCU Bucky, in the tie in comic, he killed
some hydra people and then decided to stop the killing, a short time
after CA TWS. In CA CW, he also seems to try not to kill people, even
though that only works with movie logic (yes bucky, a huge brick to
the chest still kills people in real life).
(From Civil War prelude infinite comic, MCU tie-in)
MCU Tony generally
is a lot more funny and snarky than 616 Tony, although 616Tony
changed to be more snarky in newer comics, probably because of MCU.
616 Tony also usually was more of a high society business man, as
well as doing more charity work, or at least MCU doesn’t focus on the
charities much. While both are impulsive in their business descisions
when they think they can stop something bad (like shutting down
weapons production in MCU, or firing and hiring people in 616),
comics show Tony actually being CEO, attending board meetings, doing
paperwork. 616 Tony often seems like a more serious and sadder
version of Tony Stark. (I’ve also heared comic fans say that MCU Tony
in CA CW was finally closer to 616 Tony)
In the MCU, Tony
being a team player is only shown in the background. He builds stuff
for them all, gives them a base and obviously had kept an eye open
for new heroes like spider man (and seems to try and take care of him
post cw), but the other characters still react to him like he doesn’t
work well in a team and has a huge ego (which he has, but it mostly
manifests with him thinking everything bad is his fault and he could
have stopped it). 616 Tony has founded and led multiple avengers
teams, knows or is friends with a lot of people in the superhero
community, works with them or helps them. (from All-New All Different Avengers, Patsy Walker - Hellcat, Black Widow - Name of the Rose, Avengers v2) He isn’t always well liked
by everyone, but I’d say a lot of people (the heroes, not always the
civillians) do appreciate what he does. Before his identity was out,
people also praised or thanked him in his role as Tony Stark, not
just as Iron man (although that might be partly meant as a joke on
his secret identity).
There is some
difference in age and background for Bucky: 616 Bucky’s father
was in the army, and when he died when Bucky was 12, Bucky stayed at
the army base and became kind of the base’s mascot. Depending on
version of the comics, he then either recieved special training to
become Captain America’s sidekick, or became Cap’s sidekick when he
accidentally saw Steve’s secret identity. Bucky was 16 when he met
Steve, who already was Cap, and went to war from about age 16-19. So
616 Bucky was a lot younger, knew Steve for a shorter time, and also
had a lot more military background than MCU Bucky.
MCU Bucky breaks out
of his brainwashing more or less by himself (with the help of Steve
talking to him and stuff) and generally seems to need some time to
remember. 616 Bucky doesn’t remember anything before Steve uses a
cosmic cube to make him remember, and then he pretty much remembers
all instantly. In comics, Bucky had already lost his memories when they found him, so they just used that and added some brainwashing later.
In fandom, MCU
Winter Soldier is often described as more of an object than person,
and while I don’t really think that is quite canon (he orders his men
around in TWS, seems comfortable with speaking, Pierce tries to
reason wih him before deciding to wipe him), the comics show the
winter soldier talking, making plans, and generally behaving
“normal”, if rather cruel. There are scenes describing that
they laughed at Bucky though, who, with the memory loss and
brainwashing, was helping the people he used to fight.
Bucky did not kill
Tony’s parents in 616. The two of them
actually work together quite well after fighting for a bit, for about
3 years of comics.
While the movies
manage to pack a lot of stuff into 2 hours of movie, especially if
you pay attention to details, comics had decades to establish more
character depth and had more time for small scenes that were just for
character and not plot.
With the decades of
comics, a lot of the relationships between the characters are more
detailed. Tony and Natasha started off rough, but Tony trusted her
for decades now. Natasha already knows bucky from her time as a Black
Widow and they were together for a while. Tony dated Jan, Madame
Masque, Maya Hansen (after she was in jail for the whole extremis
thing), and a whole bunch of others, partly because canon is LOOONG.
superheroes (and living together) for 10 or more years, more
almost-world-ending events, all these things will make them a little
different from MCU versions, where there are a lot less super-powered
people, and a lot of stuff between the movies is not shown and never
mentioned, making it seem like not much happened.
As for recognizing
them in an AU, that is sometimes possible, but often easier when
looking at other details of the world. MCU is influenced by comics a
lot, and fans also take stuff from the comics they like, so it’s not
give a hint: Janet Van Dyne and Hank Pym are there? Obadiah is not?
Tony is friends with Reed Richards, who has children? Bucky met Steve in the army? Bucky hung out with the Invaders? All hints for 616.
Sometimes you can
see that a specific storyline is mirrored in the AU, for example the
Iron Man 1 plot, which makes it pretty obviously MCU (That exact plot
didn’t happen in the comics, and while Obadiah did things, his role
was smaller and he had nothing to do with Tony being kidnapped and
becoming Iron Man).
Thank you for this question, Anon, it
gave me an opportunity to ramble about comics XD!
anyone sees mistakes, feel free to let me know, I don’t know nearly
enough about comics (and I probably forgot some stuff).
And a big thank you to @comic-bucky,
who knows ALL (and who sent me a lot of comic panels) <3