good one joffrey

anonymous asked:

Since you've already discussed Cersei's mothering, what about Jamie as a father? He doesn't seem to think all too much about them, but still is the one to stand by Tommen (as you've pointed out). Do you think show!Myrcella's reaction upon learning that he's her real father ("I'm glad you are") is realistic?

To answer the last bit, I don’t think Myrcella’s reaction was realistic. They’re in a war for the throne with them being known as Baratheons but with rumors flying all over the planet that they’re incest kids and have zero claim, yet she’s happy? I don’t know about you, but if I found out my uncle and mom produced me I’d puke, despite how much of a dick my dad was. Meanwhile, the enemies of my House have been proven right all along. I’d be embarrassed, not happy. I understand her immediate internal relief over Robert Baratheon not being her biological father, but I will never understand the overly outward happiness of it being her uncle. Jaime and Myrcella had practically no relationship anyway, so I don’t understand where this happiness of her being a twincest baby comes. It goes against all logic, both in the emotional and practical sense, but that’s just me. I know people disagree and that’s alright. 

About him being a father… 

It’s hard to say whether Jaime would be a good father or not, because he has never really been given that chance. However, from my impressions I don’t believe Jaime would be a neglectful or distant father.

“But what about all of those quotes about his children?! Jaime is horrible!!11!1”

Oh, like when he thinks about how they’re no more than a “seed in Cersei’s cunt” ? Considering that deep down Jaime is a man driven by honor, given how inspired he was by Arthur Dayne and now currently Brienne, it would explain where his attitude is coming from, which is shown in this quote:

“No. Bastards are seldom made upon the belly.” He wondered what his cousin would say if he were to confess his own sins, the three treasons Cersei had named Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella - affc JAIME VI

He views them not as their children made out of love, but as treason, and yet we still get a hint of bitterness to his tone when thinking how “Cersei had named” the children, which leads me to believe he resents her from keeping them from him.

“Tommen is no son of mine, no more than Joffrey was.” His voice was hard. “You made them Robert’s too.” affc JAIME I

And then we have this

Jaime had seen him born, that was true, though more for Cersei than the child. But he had never held him. “How would it look?” his sister warned him when the women finally left them. “Bad enough Joff looks like you without you mooning over him.” Jaime yielded with hardly a fight. The boy had been a squalling pink thing who demanded too much of Cersei’s time, Cersei’s love, and Cersei’s breasts. Robert was welcome to him.- asos JAIME VIII

To a lot of people this quote shows that his heart is only capable of Cersei, and yes at a surface read I agree that the quote above further exposes the toxicity of their relationship, however I also think resentment undertones are heavy in this as well. Cersei asking, “how would it look” implies that he had made a move to hold the child or had been curious enough to ask her. Since her questioning stuck with him enough for him to still be recalling it, the next bit reads, imo, as him suppressing his rejection and feelings, making it all about Cersei, by saying that he was just a “squalling pink thing who demanded too much of Cersei’s time” and that “Robert was welcome to have him.” It’s a coping mechanism. 

The reason why I’m lead to interpret his thoughts in this way is because then throughout ASoS and AFfC we have this off and on battle where he references Joffrey as “son” or them as his children, and then goes back to saying they’re seeds or purely Cersei’s.

Jaime sat silent through it all, letting the words wash over him, a horn of ale forgotten in his one good hand. Joffrey. My blood. My firstborn. My son. He tried to bring the boy’s face to mind, but his features kept turning into Cersei’s. -asos JAIME VII

He was curiously calm. Men were supposed to go mad with grief when their children died, he knew. They were supposed to tear their hair out by the roots, to curse the gods and swear red vengeance. So why was it that he felt so little? The boy lived and died believing Robert Baratheon his sire. -asos JAIME VII

(And ends with resentment again). He tries so hard to have a connection to “his son” but can only come up with Cersei. The fact that he tries to feel something tells me he wishes, and has always wished, he could have experienced that bond. He also cares about and is conscious of what they think of him:

“No,” said Jaime. “Tommen has lost a brother, and the man he thought of as his father. If I were to kill his mother, he would hate me for it … - affc JAIME VII

And then there’s this beauty:

He had a second son, after all, and seed enough for many more. If Cersei wants another child I’ll give her one … and this time I’ll hold him, and the Others take those who do not like it. Robert was rotting in his grave, and Jaime was sick of lies.

He turned abruptly and galloped back to find Brienne. Gods know why I bother.

- asos JAIME VIII

This quote gives me life on so many levels, mainly because of the foreshadowing bit when GRRM transitions into the next paragraph with him turning around to find Brienne after saying he was sick of lies and wanting to be a father, but anyway off topic (I would gladly welcome an anon to stumble into my ask with this, just sayin ;P )

To keep it simple, the Tommen AFfC books scene in my last post shows he has parental traits, and this quote above tells us that he is even willing to have more children and wants to father them. He has always wanted to be a father because “this time” he will hold it. This time he won’t let others stop him. And yes, he wants to be a caring father because:

Once he found the Blackfish, he would be free to return to King’s Landing, where he belonged. My place is with my king. With my son. Would Tommen want to know that? The truth could cost the boy his throne. Would you sooner have a father or a chair, lad? Jaime wished he knew the answer. He does like stamping papers with his seal. The boy might not even believe him, to be sure. Cersei would say it was a lie. My sweet sister, the deceiver. He would need to find some way to winkle Tommen from her clutches before the boy became another Joffrey. And whilst at that, he should find the lad a new small council too. If Cersei can be put aside, Ser Kevan may agree to serve as Tommen’s Hand. - affc JAIME VII

Not only in that bit does does he desire to be his father, but he also makes it clear how he wants to care for him in the sense that he wants him to be surrounded by people that are smart political choices and have good influences, whereas Cersei surrounds him with people who best serve her own needs, for her council (and just to prevent people from accusing me of inventing shit, not reading, and being a hater:) 

I want none of Lord Tyrell’s creatures on my council.“

Tommen’s council, you mean.

“You know what I mean.”

Too well.

- affc JAIME II

If desiring to be a father - a good one - wasn’t important to his arc, GRRM wouldn’t be putting any of this in, and Jaime’s narrative would continue to read as him only viewing Tommen as a cockblock and someone who is stealing Cersei’s attention.

But does the resentment layer and him wanting to father excuse the fact he hasn’t been more emotionally invested in his children’s lives? No, he chose that. He let it happen. Even though Cersei and society pushed him away from them he still chose to emotionally distance himself.  However, his situation is a lot more complicated on the parental end than Cersei’s considering a) he serves the King… his brother in-law… in the KG b) his sister physically wouldn’t let him near them enough to bond and c) the added dishonorable act layer of treason. I’m thinking a part of his parental attitude was born from self loathing. Do I think it’s in his nature is to be neglectful, unloving, and a terrible father? No, but we will never know until it happens, but I believe if he were to have future children -cough-Brienne-cough- his involvement would be entirely different.

"Jaime doesn't love Cersei!!"
  • Jaime sat silent through it all, letting the words wash over him, a horn of ale forgotten in his one good hand. Joffrey. My blood. My firstborn. My son. He tried to bring the boy’s face to mind, but his features kept turning into Cersei’s. She will be in mourning, her hair in disarray and her eyes red from crying, her mouth trembling as she tries to speak. She will cry again when she sees me, though she’ll fight the tears. His sister seldom wept but when she was with him. She could not stand for others to think her weak. Only to her twin did she show her wounds. She will look to me for comfort and revenge. They rode hard the next day, at Jaime’s insistence. His son was dead, and his sister needed him.
  • “Her Grace is in mourning. And why would she be wanting to see the likes of you?” Because I’m her lover, and the father of her murdered son, he wanted to say.
  • She has never come to me, he thought. She has always waited, letting me come to her.
  • “I am sick of being careful. The Targaryens wed brother to sister, why shouldn’t we do the same? Marry me, Cersei. Stand up before the realm and say it’s me you want. We’ll have our own wedding feast, and make another son in place of Joffrey.”
  • “All I want is you.” He made to touch her cheek. Old habits die hard, and it was his right arm he lifted.
  • “I crossed a thousand leagues to come to you, and lost the best part of me along the way. Don’t tell me to leave.”
  • Robert’s death still left a bitter taste in Jaime’s mouth. It should have been me who killed him, not Cersei. “I only wished he’d died at my hands.” When I still had two of them. “If I’d let kingslaying become a habit, as he liked to say, I could have taken you as my wife for all the world to see. I’m not ashamed of loving you, only of the things I’ve done to hide it.”
  • I’ve lost a hand, a father, a son, a sister, and a lover, and soon enough I will lose a brother. And yet they keep telling me House Lannister won this war.
  • (…) "I could follow Cersei.” He could feel himself growing hard at the thought, and turned away so Brienne would not see.
2

The king is dead, they told him, never knowing that Joffrey was his son as well as his sovereign (…) Jaime sat silent through it all, letting the words wash over him, a horn of ale forgotten in his one good hand. Joffrey. My blood. My firstborn. My son. He tried to bring the boy’s face to mind, but his features kept turning into Cersei’s (…) He was curiously calm. Men were supposed to go mad with grief when their children died, he knew. They were supposed to tear their hair out by the roots, to curse the gods and swear red vengeance. So why was it that he felt so little? The boy lived and died believing Robert Baratheon his sire. And now he’s dead. He pictured Joff lying still and cold with a face black from poison, and still felt nothing. Perhaps he was the monster they claimed.