nobodysuspectsthebutterfly replied to your post

“I pray for you morn, noon, and night, my sweet lord,” Tywin wrote, “and count the days until you share my bed again.”

Tywin uncorked a bottle and let a few drops fall on the parchment, frowning. Cersei’s favorite scent smelled too much like the scented oils he used himself. He took out another sheet of parchment and began again. “I pray for you…”

ajax-daughter-of-telamon replied to your post

oh my gosh … I did notice all the references to “under” Casterly Rock, but I just thought he liked to explore when he was a kid, like the Starklings in the crypts of Winterfell … holy shit :(

I’m not sure if I gave the right impression in that post so I just want to clarify: I don’t think that Tyrion was locked up or put in the dungeons as a baby, just that he was … kept out of the way, sadly. Far, far out of the way, in a not very nice part of the castle :( And when he didn’t die as everyone expected, they eventually moved him up to a higher part of the castle, near maesters, the library, the great hall, etc, as evidenced by Tyrion’s memories of socializing and dining there and stuff. So I do think that Tyrion liked to explore, away from his family, when he was young, but I don’t thinkg it was Tyrion being forced to stay down there all the time.

The reason I found that series of quotes interesting was that Tyrion so frequently occupies what one of my teachers once described as liminal spaces. (I’m very far from a lit expert, don’t jump on me tumblr.) Liminal spaces were described to me as the edges, the boundaries, the thresholds of places/things, and sometimes they’re associated with magic. 

(For example, Harry Potter’s cupboard under the stairs is a liminal space. I learned about this in the context of Henrik Ibsen’s Rosmersholm, where the liminal spaces were associated with ghosts (?), but I don’t remember more than that.) 

Tyrion occupying liminal spaces in ASOIAF might be something worth examining in the future, cuz Tyrion goes to the Wall/the edge of the world, he’s on the edge of the skycell, the lower parts of Casterly Rock, etc. The thing about Tyrion is that he’s touched the magical plotline of ASOIAF, but he still remains mostly removed from it, for the time being. He’s on the threshold, if you will. (But this is a topic that would probably need someone more knowledgable than I, because I don’t feel like I know enough.)

crazy-plushies-and-cats-girl replied to your post:

could you explain it please? i don’t see it…

So, in ASOS we learned that Olenna Redwyne was betrothed to a Targaryen prince as a child. Before TWOIAF was published, we didn’t know who Olenna was betrothed to or why, which led to a lot of (incorrect) speculation about Aegon V securing the Redwyne navy for the War of the Ninepenny Kings, and discussions of Aegon V as a military commander/political strategist etc

We later found out in TWOIAF that Olenna Tyrell was betrothed to Aegon V’s youngest son, Daeron Targaryen. The problem with the betrothal was, Daeron Targaryen was gay and had no interest in women. He loved Ser Jeremy Norridge, a knight from the Reach:

Though betrothed to Lady Olenna Redwyne of the Arbor when both of them were nine, Prince Daeron repudiated the match in 246 AC, when he was eighteen … though in his case, there appears to have been no other woman, for Daeron remained unwed throughout the remainder of his short life. A born soldier who rejoiced in tournament and battle, he preferred the companionship of Ser Jeremy Norridge, a dashing young knight who had been with the prince since the two of them were squires together at Highgarden. Prince Daeron brought to his father, Aegon, an altogether deeper sort of grief when he was killed in battle in 251 AC, leading an army against the Rat, the Hawk, and the Pig. Ser Jeremy died at his side, but the rebellion was quashed, and the rebels slain or hanged.

Olenna says in ASOS, “They tried to marry me to a Targaryen once, but I soon put an end to that” but as we see in TWOIAF, the last part isn’t true, at least according to Maester Yandel. Daeron refused to marry Olenna, instead of the other way around. I believe Olenna is probably trying to make herself look better in front of Sansa, who also had a prince cast her aside in favor of another. (But Sansa didn’t want to be married to Joffrey at that point, while I believe Olenna did want to marry a Targaryen prince, given her blasé attitude toward Luthor.) 

Olenna’s situation had some parallels to Margaery’s, but of course Renly Baratheon actually went through with his marriage to Margaery while continuing his relationship with Loras Tyrell. Which is interesting, because one of the first things readers hear from Olenna is that she disapproved of backing Renly’s bid for the throne, that she protested against Margaery becoming Renly’s queen:

The old woman turned back to Sansa. “It’s treason, I warned them, Robert has two sons, and Renly has an older brother, how can he possibly have any claim to that ugly iron chair? Tut-tut, says my son, don’t you want your sweetling to be queen?”

And so, Olenna says that Renly “knew how to dress and he knew how to smile and he knew how to bathe, and somehow he got the notion that this made him fit to be king. The Baratheons have always had some queer notions, to be sure. It comes from their Targaryen blood, I should think.” The word “queer” is defined as “strange” but it has another (sometimes pejorative) definition in that it refers to someone who is not heterosexual, or in Renly’s case, someone who is gay.

What Olenna’s saying is that Renly was gay just like his Targaryen great-uncle, like, the joke she’s making is that Renly inherited his gayness from Great-Uncle Daeron, that Baratheon homosexuality comes from their Targaryen side. (Some people speculate that half-brothers Aegon the Conqueror and Orys Baratheon were more than just friends btw, and well, I mean, if you’re already banging both your sisters, a half-brother might fit right in.) 

And what makes this so funny to me is that the fandom was obsessing over the line “they tried to marry me to a Targaryen once” and doing all of this intricate strategic and political analysis, when all along, GRRM put the reason for Olenna’s broken betrothal right there in the same paragraph, staring us all in the face when she references “queer notions”. Presumably GRRM had this planned since the late 90s, when he was first imagining Dunk & Egg and writing ASOS. It’s quite funny to me how the fandom tends to overanalyze things.

That ASOS scene where Sansa meets the Queen of Thorns can be looked at anew, when you think about parallels between Sansa and Olenna now, and Olenna/Daeron/Jeremy and Margaery/Renly/Loras. 

nobodysuspectsthebutterfly replied to your photoset:

I only think a bastard because maesters are often bastards. e.g. Walys Flowers, Melwys Rivers. Also a second sons becoming a maester is rare. If not a bastard, I’d go with the 4th/5th son option.

“maesters are often bastards” To be perfectly honest with you, that had slipped my mind. Thank you. "Also a second sons becoming a maester is rare" Yeah, that was my main problem with my own theory, I don’t think I would put Pycelle as a second son now. Tybolt’s fourth son versus Tybolt’s bastard are equally interesting to me right now, I’m really glad you brought up the bastard thing.

nobodysuspectsthebutterfly replied to your photoset:

and because I am in favor of Occam’s Razor is why I don’t think much about son #1 & 2. What happened to them? They died. (Balon Greyjoy’s like a 3rd son too, IIRC.) And many lords have mistresses. But Pycelle being Gerold’s could also work.

But this is my family, B. You don’t just say coldly, “They died,” about family members. You’re probably right. But son #1 & 2 are important to me. I do really like the idea of Pycelle as Gerold’s bastard or legitimate son tho. Basically there better be a sidebar about Pycelle or Gerold or Tybolt or somebody in The World of Ice and Fire

thenerdglaze reblogged your post:

[…] This isn’t Cersei putting words into her mouth: these are details that only Shae could come up with […]

I think we disagree on what tales Cersei is capable of spinning. I don’t find it hard to believe that Cersei could sit down in a room with Shae, make her afraid for her life, question her about her “romance” with Tyrion, question her a little about her life (much as she did with Sansa in book 1), and then Cersei develops a story for Shae to memorize that inflicts maximum damage on Tyrion. Cersei knows Tyrion’s weaknesses better than almost anyone.

And she’s doing it for her own gain […]

The terms of Shae’s arrangement with Cersei seem to be “Testify. and I will give you a manse and a knight to wed. Refuse, and you die.” Is that really doing something for personal gain in that case, when it is a matter of life or death? 

And being Tywin’s mistress doesn’t seem like personal gain to me. “He frightens me.” “have you come to take me away?” GRRM’s quote about Tywin beheading anyone at the mere suggestion of him having bastards. 

[…] all the time he tried to send her away, she said no or simply ignored him. It was weak of him not to insist more, but I can’t say that it wasn’t her choice too.

But taking an uneducated, homeless, impoverished young peasant girl who was sexually abused by her father, and suddenly showering riches upon her, and giving her plenty of food so that she forgets hunger, and trading her rags for silks and buying her a palace in the capital … a girl who knows next to nothing about the game of thrones which Tyrion is a major player of … why would she even think to leave???? Shae doesn’t understand the danger. 

[…] it’s just basic human decency that tells you not to throw under the bus in a totally humiliating and uncalled for way a person that loved you and tried his best to protect you for the prospect of a possible personal gain. If you do that, you’re not necessarily a vindictive bitch, but you are definitely a despicable human being.

Yes, it’s bad what Shae does at Tyrion’s trial, but more often than not in Westeros, there are no good options. I do not think Shae had a choice in this. Humiliating someone is despicable, but does anyone “deserve to die” (as some are saying) for humiliating someone? 

whenpeopleseegood replied to your post:

Agreed so hard on everything but the Sansa/Lyanna bits. Thank you for this

Thank you, Andy! Knowing the text as well as you do, I’m flattered whenever you like one of my posts! Yeah, I know we don’t see eye-to-eye on any Sansa/Lyanna parallels and that’s cool! 

Assuming my “It’s Complicated” theory is true (that Lyanna went willingly and things went horribly wrong), I just think it shows a certain level of naiveté to Lyanna that she would share with Sansa. Both Lyanna and Sansa got involved with princes that weren’t as great as they initially seemed, and they each paid a price (different prices) for that.

Meanwhile, Arya ofc is similar to Lyanna in looks and personality, resistant to conform to society’s expectations of her, so much so that Arya reminds Ned of his sister. However, Arya is very observant and aware of the world around her, and she’s a very good judge of people, more so than Sansa. (That isn’t a knock against Sansa, that’s who Sansa is. Like her direwolf Lady, Sansa is initially very trusting, while Arya sees through Cersei and Joffrey right away.) If you assume, like I do, that Lyanna went of her own volition in an attempt to exercise agency, surely Lyanna didn’t realize that Rhaegar wasn’t the shining prince he was made out to be? (That isn’t to say that Rhaegar is evil or even that he’s horrible, just that Rhaegar wasn’t a paragon of virtue either.) It just seems to me that if Arya were in Lyanna’s situation, she would be a better judge of Rhaegar and she would remember what he did to Elia. idk.

I don’t think it detracts from the Arya/Lyanna parallels to say that Sansa/Lyanna parallels also exist, but that’s just my take on it. 

ismaelp16 replied to your post:

what is this? I mean have a good info about the books or what?

Mastering the Game of Thrones is about 280 pages of academic essays about ASOIAF, written by university professors and experts in their fields. These are the essays:

  • Languages in ASOIAF by the guy who made up the languages for HBO (language family of high valyrian explained in an easy to understand diagram, fuck yeah)
  • Narrative structure of ASOIAF and how that ties into the “thematic meaning” of ASOIAF
  • maesters
  • ASOIAF & Shakespeare (excellent stuff here)
  • the frontier of the American West vs the Wall in the North
  • Religion in ASOIAF (coool)
  • Knighthood & Chivalry in Westeros
  • Dany
  • how the amputation of Jaime’s hand relates to his “conception of self”
  • Stark kids, warging, & greensight
  • homosexuality in Westeros
  • “the pathological self-regard of the Westerosi dynasties” (i need to check this one out omg)
  • Fanart & ASOIAF
  • “Adaptation Theory” – idk what this is, it’s like … “show vs book” is way too much of an oversimplification for what this is, and it’s talking about fanworks and idk

I just got the book tonight and I haven’t had a chance to look at it that much, but what I’ve skimmed looks really cool! It’s very scholarly, like the stuff racefortheironthrone writes

forgirlsraisedbywolves reblogged your post and added:

I do have a question about one of your points. You wrote, ”Tywin helps Robert send assassins after Dany throughout her childhood.”

I’ve been re-reading the series recently (but I’m still on book one), and I remember asking myself if there really were assassins after the Targaryens throughout Dany’s childhood or if Viserys was (justifiably, I think) paranoid and seeing threats where there weren’t any.

In Ned’s second chapter of AGoT, Robert says, “I should have had them both killed years ago, when it was easy to get at them, but Jon was as bad as you. More fool I, I listened to him.” I took that to mean Robert never actually tried to kill the Targaryens until AGoT.

When you say Tywin helps Robert send assassins after Dany throughout her childhood, are you referring to the attempt that happens in AGoT, or were there previous attempts that I either completely missed or have forgotten about since I last read the series?

hmm, you raise an interesting point, and one that I legitimately don’t know the answer to. I was basing my statement on both Dany’s POV (which is of course limited, with imperfect information, particularly when filtered through her brother) and Tyrion’s quote: “She has survived assassinS and conspiracies and fell sorceries I took this to mean that Tyrion knew of assassins sent after Dany during her childhood, but it may be the case that there were no assassins prior to AGOT, and that this is another example of the POV problem, I really don’t know. Someone more invested in Essos and Dany’s storyline would have to weigh in. None of this invalidates my original point that Tywin is an asshole with terrible morality, though.

joanredfernsmith replied to your post:

That’s interesting considering that Lady Stoneheart (who is a total corruption of her previous self really) is almost certainly out for vengeance, not justice, and that this is also a lesson that Arya is going to have to learn.

I don’t think Stoneheart is any kind of representation of the beliefs of Catelyn Stark. Stoneheart is more than a corruption of Catelyn, she’s the complete antithesis of Catelyn. One of the last things Cat says is “We will take no vengeance.” She is looking for justice on so many occasions, while Stoneheart’s entire existence is based on vengeance. The Cat/Stoneheart - Justice/Vengeance dichotomy is a really important theme, imo.

I’m hardly the person to talk to about Arya, so please keep that in mind in this paragraph and note that this is an untagged post, but I do think justice is important to Arya. She’s one of the few people interested in holding Sandor responsible for Mycah’s death, she knows that Joffrey should be held accountable for his douchebaggery, she strongly objects to Lady’s death. When analyzing the meaning of her List as a part of her character, I think it’s important to take into account the massive trauma she’s suffered, with people being murdered and tortured all around her. There may be an element of vengeance to it, but I took it as her desire to hold the people listed accountable for all of these atrocities. Arya was raised in a family where “The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword” and she is GRRM’s window into the atrocities committed against the common people during the War. Arya does take Sandor off the List, iirc, but that’s important. Vengeance to me seems to be something carried out no matter what, a form of blindness if you will, or a train going down the tracks, something unstoppable and immune to reason (see: Lady Stoneheart). 

whenpeopleseegood replied to your post:

Arya’s 100% about justice. Her ADWD chapters illustrate that clearly with her thoughts on the ugly girl’s abusive father & how she justifies the fraudulent insurer’s death (“he’s an evil man” and all.)

Lannister Women & Jewelry

poorshadowspaintedqueens reblogged your post and added:

Also worth keeping in mind that Robert spent a lot of money as king, but not necessarily on the trappings of royalty. We know Tywin and a lot of other lords looked down him for being more of a military man than one concerned with splendour of rule. Also there’s the association of Tywin with splendour, particularly gold (c.f. Stannis’ story about mistaking him for Aerys), so I think Cersei picks it up in part as a refraction of what her father is doing and what House Lannister in general is wont to do—advertise their greatness by way of massive shows of wealth (as opposed to the seeming austerity of the Starks, for instance; they’re clearly wealthy and powerful, but are more interested in ostentatiously not showing it and using that as a signifier of their own superiority).

Jewels were also often seen as symbolic gifts between monarchs and potentates, so we don’t really know how much of Cersei’s treasure hoard in AFFC is even “hers,” as opposed to “the Crown’s” (although she’d probably argue that the two were one and the same). I’m sure there had to have been a fair amount of Targaryen treasure built up over the centuries that made its way into Robert’s treasure without being wholly melted down and recreated—that would be a huge waste of resources, after all. They also often passed between aristocratic women and their female friends/ladies-in-waiting, so it wouldn’t surprise me if Joanna ended up with one or two pieces from Queen Rhaella or the Princess of Dorne. And I imagine Cersei also brought a veritable mountain of jewellery with her as part of her dowry to Robert. How much of that consisted of Lannister heirlooms and how much was specially purchased would be anybody’s guess. Just by way of historical example, all three times that Pope Alexander VI’s daughter Lucrezia Borgia was married, she came with a painstakingly enumerated list of jewels, plate, gowns, and other objéts d’art that made up her dowry.

Which is, I guess, is a longwinded way of saying that Cersei’s jewels could have come from anywhere and don’t necessarily need to represent anything as a whole (although I can only imagine that, knowing her, she secreted one or two of her mother’s things somewhere).

Thank you, poorshadowspaintedqueens, I love all of your discussions of ASOIAF court life! Yeah, I definitely agree that Cersei has some of her mother’s jewelry. As I was saying in the post, though, I just don’t think it includes any worn by Tytos’s mistress. 

nobodysuspectsthebutterfly replied to your post:

Oh, no, not her name, but that he was married before, at least.

Yeah, I know they’re mentioned Tyrion’s childhood marriage (well, not really childhood if he was 16 on the show but w/e) but the show has kept it very focused on Tyrion. Which isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but I still want Tysha to be in the picture more. It’s important to me that that crossbow goes off as a result of Tywin being so cavalier about what happened to Tysha. That scene in the books is very layered imo so I’m probably being overly optimistic in my expectations for the show but w/e.

It’s just that the show has a tendency to write out the importance of women when possible? Why did they change Oberyn’s mom to Oberyn’s dad? Why did they change Lady Stokeworth to Lord Stokeworth? Why did they eliminate Chataya’s role as owner of the brothel and put LF in charge instead? Why did they eliminate Lady Smallwood in Acorn Hall? Why didn’t they say the Tywin/Joanna line, why couldn’t they have said Joanna’s name, why couldn’t they have said “Lady Joanna ruled Lord Tywin”???? Individually these are small things, but they add up.

halemcjoel replied to your post:

i wish they didn’t make them so delicate in the show. they’re strong and all but a touch of valyrian steel and they go poof

In the books:

And then he was stumbling forward, falling more than running, really, closing his eyes and shoving the dagger blindly out before him with both hands. He heard a crack, like the sound ice makes when it breaks beneath a man’s foot, and then a screech so shrill and sharp that he went staggering backward with his hands over his muffled ears, and fell hard on his arse. 

When he opened his eyes the Other’s armor was running down its legs in rivulets as pale blue blood hissed and steamed around the black dragonglass dagger in its throat. It reached down with two bone-white hands to pull out the knife, but where its fingers touched the obsidian they smoked. 

Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating.

20 heartbeats. *poof* “swirling away in a fine white mist” I assume dragonsteel has an effect similar to dragonglass.

lalalorhen reblogged your post:

What do you mean “despite that not happening in the real medieval period?” - as far as I know it DID happen. Many historical figures became mothers at a tender age. Especially nobility. Few examples?

  • Bianca of Savoy, Duchess of Milan was married aged 13yo (1350), and aged 14yo when she gave birth to her eldest son, Giangaleazzo (1351).
  • Theodora Comnena was aged 13yo when she was married King Baldwin III of Jerusalem (1158).
  • Agnes of France was 12yo when, widowed, she was married to Andronicus Comnenus, Byzantine Emperor (1182).
  • St Elizabeth of Portugal was aged 12yo when she was married to King Denis of Portugal and gave birth to three children shortly thereafter.
  • Caterina Sforza was betrothed aged 9yo, married aged 14yo, and gave birth aged 15yo.
  • Lucrezia Borgia was married to her first husband aged 13yo and bore a son within a few years.
  • Beatrice d’Este was betrothed aged 5yo and married aged 15yo.
  • Margaret Beaufort gave birth to the future King Henry VII at the age of 14yo.

Don’t believe people who say it didn’t happen, because it DID. 

Hi! My apologies, I wrote that quickly and phrased it poorly. I am far from an expert on the medieval period, but from what I have read, girls being married off and bedded at such young ages was not as normal in real history as it is in ASOIAF. (HERE is the closest post I have to hand on the subject.) As it says in that post,

This is not to say that there weren’t royal or noble women who weren’t married and told to carry out their “marital duties” at 12, 13, 14 years old. Margaret Beaufort, for example, was married at 12 and bore Henry VII at 13. She was also heavily traumatized by this early sexual activity (notes in the margins of her personal Psalter include worries about her aversion to sex) and was rendered sterile by the birth. This story is repeated throughout Europe: a young bride who bears a child and cannot have anymore, or dies very young in childbirth, or leaves her marriage house to live in a convent. 

People in real life were very aware that child brides were not ideal, but GRRM makes it seem commonplace.

racefortheironthrone replied to your post:

Well, Eustace was an old man, it’s quite possible Gerold was yet another husband.

It’s definitely possible, I’m not disputing that. But like I said, I just find it surprising, given what was in Dunk & Egg. it was said that Gerold would never leave “the splendor of Casterly Rock and the pleasures of Lannisport” and it was my impression that he had a lot of influence at Tybolt’s side. I can’t see him moving to hicksville Coldmoat. And Rohanne Webber seemed very happy at Coldmoat. So ok, Eustace died and Rohanne Webber married Gerold Lannister but I’m left wondering how? and why? Money problems at Coldmoat? Again, I haven’t yet read the notes for myself though.

Imma phone my Rohanne expert here and see if she’ll weigh in. nobodysuspectsthebutterfly? Any thoughts?