dan savage is dangerous

@cishet-aroaces-are-straight

Tumblr broke the last post, so I’m trying fresh.

cishet-aroaces-are-straight:

I really don’t see how keeping cishet aro/aces out would make lgbt+ aro/aces unsafe, it’s as simple as you’re not lgbt+ thats really it, if you feel unsafe because were keeping cisgender straight peope out I don’t know what to say.

It’s not a “conflation” between straight people and aro/ace people you can be straight an aro/ace, and can not be. Aro/ace doesn’t have any default orienations. And since you can be straight an lgbt the cisgender straight ones are not apart of the community. The fuction of our community is the unite lesbian,gay,bi,pan,trans/nonbinary people in addition to fighting homophobia and transphobia. I’m not saying we all do it and we all help eachother but thats what the fucntion is. Being ace doesn’t automatically make you not straight.

No, not all ace-spec people are “the arbiters of Straightness” but again if you’re a straight ace person you hold straight privledge and opression. I highly doubt if you tell a straight non ace person you have no secual attraction but you only like the oposite gender they’ll still insist you’re not straight unless they already subscribe to the “being ace automatically means not straight” ideology, I mean and maybe ignorant some straight people  will deny that straight aces are straight due to their aceness but it doesn’t make you less straight.

Again lgbt+ aces being in is fine but cishet aces being cisgender and heterosexual and a class of opressor and have been known to hurt us, the community is already unsafe unfortunatly with terfs and biphobes I understand but it’s historically made for lgbt+ people and not cishets. I see where you’re coming from with this conversation but alot of us rather fix the intercommunity transphobia and biphobia while keeping cishets out making it worse for all all by letting opressors in the community. And plenty of us are fighting agaist terfs and biphobes.

I’m not playing an “AIDS” card I’m stating that people in the aro/ace community have been known to trivialize the diseases and it’s major issues with the lgbt+ community, Thats it. Alot of us know the impact that it has with it’s members and it’s history. So your statistic and mention of the struggle between trans women and HIV while incredibly informative and an issue that seriousy needs to be tackles is irellivant in this particular conversation but honestly I’m happy I saw it because it was very important.

I can see since you’re bi yoursellf your personal concerns I’ll admit, and I’ll apologize for calling it tokenizing since you are bi but it’s not “repackaged biphobia” because bi people ae lgbt+ and belong in our community because  they are m-spec while cishet aro/aces are not because they are not trans and not sga or m-spec.

I did read the links and half of that shit I am very aware of, I experience transphobia myself from cis lgbp people. I have read and learned about the history of trans and nonbinary people and their discrimination against the community especially trans women, There has been and still is inter community discrimination but it’s still historicially SUPPOSE TO be a community for sga,m-spec, and trans/nonbinary people and to fight discrimination against all of us from cishets

I don’t know about you but I mentioned bi phobia and the discrimination of m-spec people and know it’s a horrible issue that needs to be fixed.

Again I did read the links and I read it again,  I still don’t belive keeping cishet aro/aces out is gonna cause harm to the community but I have seen some a spec hate go out of like and can deeply understand the post, I do feel like alot of us need to draw back on a-spec people when talking about keeping cishet ones out because we can be way too harsh at times.

No, were not making it clear that trans,bi,pan, and questioning kids aren’t welcome because they’re all lgbt+ and we even have said time and time again the A is so closeted lgbt+ people can safely enter the community. We aren’t sayign any of them or you don’t matter. It’s not “destroying the village” because cishets were never in.

We DO listen, we have heard the points from you guys time and time again and we still read them.

Again admitidly there is a lot of harshness toward the a-spec community and I feel like we need to draw back and on our side of the discourse and let it be so we can have our own community, but vauge general tags are not spaces. Hell I’ve thought about helping make a community myself if people want to help that I’d gladly try and start even make a acronymn and all, say the word and honesly I’m ready to help start a whole new a-spec community.

I see where your coming from I really due, I used to be including of all aces in the lgbt+ community and I am aware of how the rest of the community treats us as trans/non binary people and m-spec, no matter what they’re gonna “turn on us” honestlly thats not the right term because they’ve been on the attack for decades.

I see the struggles and I get them, I may seem like a giant grumpy asshole but I understand where you’re coming from and I am cool with cishet a-spec people themselves and totally want to know their experiences and their struggles but they just aren’t lgbt+.

FOR! FUCK’S! SAKE! This is now the third time I’ve actually given you testimony from a lesbian ace who was abused out of the community on the grounds of her asexuality, and who does not feel safe in the community as a direct result of gatekeeping “””cishet””” aces! She’s not the only one, either - I’ve spoken to quite a few, you might want to look at some of the anons I replied to today -  just the only one who felt comfortable speaking at length about it through an anonymizing proxy because she was terrified of the hate coming from your side of this argument. If you really think that the fact that “””LGBT+””” aces are scared of the community is not damaging, then you clearly don’t care about them as much as you claim.

Yes, it is conflating a-spec with Straight. You’re not actually addressing anything I’m saying - that privileged in-groups decide who they will extend membership and privilege to, and they have not been extending it to visibly a-spec people. What you call “straight privilege” in a-spec people? It’s called the closet. “Straight-passing privilege” is literally recycled 90s biphobia. This is exactly what I’ve been talking about. In terms of social privilege and membership in the oppressor class, there are no Straight a-spec people. You can be heterosexual and not Straight, as literally any heterosexual visibly-trans person can explain to you.

You’re talking about one kid who made one post ages ago, has apologized repeatedly for it, and in fact faced very heavy criticism from the a-spec community and its allies including myself. If that’s the standard we’re setting for “dangerous to the community,” then I guess Dan Savage ruined it for all cis gay men. Janice Raymond sure as fuck ruined it for lesbians. When will we be throwing them out, again?

“No member of this group has ever said anything bad about any other part of the community” is an impossible fucking standard, and one we hold no other part of the community to. Why the double-standard here? And why exactly is “said some gross shit” the priority that everyone rallies around, rather than “explicitly set out to kill thousands of members of the communit and succeeded” or “is actively conspiring with anti-queer hate groups to pass transphobic laws?” Why does attacking a-spec people get applause, but even mentioning these other two problems routinely gets called homophobia?

The fact that you claim to welcome bi people in the community now does not change the fact that about half the arguments against a-spec people are the exact same arguments that were used against bi people in the 80s and 90s, and continue to be used against us today, from within the community. I, personally, have been called heterosexual, an invader, an oppressor, because I am bi. “Straight-passing privilege” was originally an attack on bi people. “You’re interested in the ~opposite~ sex so you’re straight” was an argument against bi people. “You’re just claiming to be queer so you can invade our spaces” is an argument I saw levelled at bi people earlier tonight. Like it or not, the parts of a-spec policing that aren’t repackaged transphobia are, in fact, repackaged biphobia.

I have a fundamentally different conception of the community than you, it would seem. You want to make sure that someone can check off one of a very restricted list of boxes. I remember how much blood and tears and pain went into every single one of those boxes, all the way back to “lesbian,” against people who sounded just like today’s gatekeepers. My litmus test is much simpler: Are you a member of the Straight in-group, with free and unrestricted access to its privileges? If so, you’re not one of us. If not, you’re in. The advantage to this conceptualization is that nobody gets left behind, and we don’t need to have this fight again every ten years.

No, historically, it was never about SGA, m-spec, and trans people” coming together for their common issues. Seriously, reread that timeline and tell me when, exactly, the gay and lesbian community welcomed trans people with open arms. What year? Be specific. While you’re at it, you might want to look into how exactly “bisexual” became its own distinct classification, separate from the gay and lesbian communities. The harmonious coming together you posit never happened. The modern community has been one of the nastiest hives of transphobia as long as it has existed, and literally invented biphobia. For people like me, the community is historically at least as great a threat as straight people unless it makes a concerted effort to not be. And that concerted effort cannot happen while you’re using the exact same gatekeeping tactics that tried to keep people like me out.

It would be much easier to fix biphobia if you would stop recycling it.

Again, if you don’t think chasing off “””LGBT+””” aces and aros, bi people, and trans people in droves is causing damage to the community, I would love to know two things. One: What is damage to the community? Two: How are a-spec people causing it?

When you pick up the weapons of biphobia and transphobia - the ones that still have our blood on them - and start swinging them against people who are in the exact same position we were in ten, twenty, thirty, forty years ago? When it becomes acceptable to your side of the argument to misgender any trans person who disagrees with them (something that has happened to every trans friend I have who has spoken on this issue)? When the meme of the day is “Let’s divide bi people into “real LGBT” and “secret straightie”?

You are hurting us. You are driving us out. You are telling us we are acceptable casualties, and only conditionally welcome if we’re willing to perform gayness in a way you find acceptable.

Let me paint a picture for you here: A young boy comes to the community. He’s not too sure of himself, but he knows that he’s extremely nervous in sexualized situations and would rather avoid them, and he likes girls but not boys. Beyond that, things are fuzzy. Is he:

  • A “cishet” ace and therefore unwelcome?
  • Actually straight, and therefore unwelcome?
  • Closeted, and therefore welcome?
  • A trans woman who doesn’t know it yet, because she hasn’t seen any examples of transness that feel like they match her life, and therefore begrudgingly welcome (but nobody’s going to do anything about the literal hundreds of violently transmisogynistic people in the room, and in fact she’ll be attacked if she asks for help)?

You’ll notice that 75% of the outcomes here are not “member in good standing who can feel safe in the community.” Are you really arrogant enough to think that you can beat those odds every time someone who “should” belong comes along? (If so, you can test your luck: The person I was thinking of when I wrote that is not me. Which case is the right one?) Or do you just not care about all the times you’re wrong and throw out someone who needs our help?

This is what I mean by “destroying the village to save it.” You’re making things more dangerous for people like me, and for the next generation of confused, questioning kids, by making it very clear that we will be constantly inspected to make sure our identity matches an arbitrary and shifting standard, and if we fail we can expect violent hostility and aggression.

If you’re listening as much as you claim - if you’re actually seeing all the “””LGBT+””” a-spec people who are too scared to take part in the community, all the bi people being accused of being secretly straight, all the trans people having their gender erased when it becomes inconvenient - and you are continuing to support and advance the agenda that is doing this to us, you have decided that we are acceptable causalties. There is no other option. Either you’re not seeing the damage done, or you don’t care about it, or you stop perpetuating it.

All right, tell me exactly what does constitute a “proper” community safe from invasion. And then tell me how you expect a bunch of scared kids, often having to deal with hostile social environments and extremely limited resources, are supposed to build that without any guidance and support from the people who have gone through this before.

And then tell me what your excuse will be when that community gets invaded too, because seriously, people on your side are seeking out a-spec people who are not engaging in this war, who are too scared to ask for a place at the table, and bombarding them with hatred.

You can say you see where I’m coming from all you want to, but it’s not true. Not as long as you’re willing to stand by the people who want to throw me under the bus yet again so they can cling to the position of privilege they’ve managed to establish within the community, and maybe buy a seat at the privileged table in wider society. Not as long as you’re willing to be their foot soldier, repeat their mantras, swing their weapons. You cannot empathize with me while you’re perpetuating and encouraging violence against me. Not really.

I’ve seen this battle before, and I’m sure I’ll see it again. Frankly, as a bi trans woman, I have more in common with a-spec people than gatekeepers. I know for a fact that my ass is next once the a-spec people have been dealt with, because my ass has always been next. I refuse to earn my place in the community by punching down at the next scapegoat - I do not want privilege bought with other people’s pain. It saddens me that you do.