ch: jon snow*

anonymous asked:

'We are not men' was an offhand comment that dany made to missandei, she doesn't really believe that since they are women they are immune to death or some shit, anon should just chill omg. And the prince/princess is confirmed to be genderless from the books, it's not something that d&d invented bc they love dany, actually they know who aar is so it wouldn't surprise me if it's really both jon AND dany

I know it’s from the book but I thought it was a red herring from the moment it happened which is why the whole thing sounded kinda like melisandre wanted to find a way to convince dany but… like… okay listen idk what D&D want to do, but:

  • grrm usually does a thing which is, ‘when he TELLS YOU SOMETHING REALLY REALLY HARD AND MENTIONS IT ALL THE TIME that thing usually doesn’t happen’.
  • case: every death not on page and everything cersei says.

    affc: OH HEY DAVOS IS DEAD HIS HEAD IS HUNG OUTSIDE MANDERLY’S CASTLE adwd: hey bro we killed someone else in your place you’re going to find rickon by

    adwd: hey mance is dead!
    jon: …. I’m not sure it’s him

    actual reality: all the contrary happens

    arya: well I left sandor dying on the road he’s definitely a goner
    monk on the quiet island: I AM STILL ALIVE
    arya: sometimes I still hear his voice

    & so on.

now, never mind tyrion’s sage advice about prophecies (Prophecy is like a half-trained mule. It looks as though it might be useful, but the moment you trust in it, it kicks you in the head). What we have in the text is dany seeing R and elia and the following dialogue happens:

Aegon. What better name for a king… He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire”; “There must be one more. The dragon has three heads.”

AA prophecy:

There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him


When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.

+ tpwp prophecy as melisandre & others put it

You are he who must stand against the Other. The one whose coming was prophesied five thousand years ago. The red comet was your herald. You are the prince that was promised, and if you fail the world fails with you.


Born amidst salt and smoke, beneath a bleeding star. I know the prophecy. Not that I would trust it.


Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai come again, the warrior of fire. In him the prophecies are fulfilled. The red comet blazed across the sky to herald his coming, and he bears Lightbringer, the red sword of heroes.

now, either you think that AA is a red herring and tptwp is the real deal or you think tptwp = AA, the prophecies say exactly the same shit about either, so it’s a lot more likely that AA is tptwp and/or viceversa, or that AA is a red herring but tptwp is not. that stated, in order:

  • prophecies can’t be trusted 100% and no one interprets them well, which is what tyrion’s implying and what everyone does in these books since until now no one’s ever manage to understand one correctly
  • if GRRM tells you that someone is SOMETHING without immediate proof/verification, he’s most probably lying or red herring you around
  • R has elements from which he could deduce that if he didn’t have three children for three dragons the long night would come, which was why he started getting ready for it and was that bent on having three children. now, what is he saying in that vision? that AEGON is tptwp. now, as per above, if R thinks aegon is tptwp he’s definitely wrong because aegon is not and whether the one with jonc is fake or not (I think not) he is not AA or twptw. one out. rhaenys is dead, regardless. and what was R’s deal? getting the third head of the dragon in the world… for which he started a civil war. ops. let’s leave it one moment. anyway, R’s prophecy says for sure three things: the apocalypse is coming, you’ll need three dragons to stop it with three riders who should all be targs, and one of his children is AA/tptwp.
  • obviously, we could say that dany works anyway because she’s a targ so maybe R’s prophecy was wrong. which is most probably half true, because dany’s of course one of the heads of the dragon. but, she isn’t tptwp. why?
  • because she’s already been brought up by the narrative and everyone that the narrative explicitly brought up is NOT for now tptwp. it’s not aegon. it’s not stannis. and since in affc grrm took the time to put his red herring around with the language question and so on… sorry but it’s not dany. if she was dany, no one would have brought her up as an option, because that’s… not how the narrative works. like, literally, in asoiaf I’ve never seen anything that explicitly stated (that wasn’t dany owning dragons obv but that was the established plot point from the beginning) actually become a thing. you get hints. you get parallels you can theorize on. but like, if the narrative tells you davos dies offscreen davos doesn’t die offscreen, if cersei thinks marge is the younger and beautiful queen she’s wrong and if aemon thinks tptw is dany, she’s not. it’s a red herring. why?
  • interlude: there’s a thing named occam’s razor which basically says the simplest explanation is the most likely and if your theory needs to be extra elaborate to work, it’s probably not true.
  • if we follow occam’s razor (which a lot of narrative does because the more convoluted is a theory the least likely is the reader to buy it), we know: that tptwp has to be a thing, that he/she is related to rhaegar and should be one of his children, that he/she has to die among smoke and salt and blah blah blah and that prophecies are half-trained mules and that in order to have three kids R started a civil war, so that third kid must be damned important, and that it’s not R’s second child because R thought he was, and that it can’t be the first since he’s dead.
  • now: who is actually R’s offspring which has not been mentioned openly in the book until now, who has never ever ever brought up by the narrative itself as a possible AA/ptwp candidate, who has showed up in melisandre’s flames when she asked to see AA thinking she’d see stannis, and, most important, whose canonical death PERFECTLY matches the AA prophecy if you don’t interpret it literally?

The dead man was Ser Patrek of King’s Mountain; his head was largely gone, but his heraldry was as distinctive as his face. [from awoiaf: Patrek is clean-shaven and windburnt. His knightly raiment are of white and blue and silver, his cloak a spatter of five-pointed stars.] Jon did not want to risk Ser Malegorn or Ser Brus or any of the queen’s other knights trying to avenge him.

Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun howled again and gave Ser Patrek’s other arm a twist and pull. It tore loose from his shoulder with a spray of bright red blood. Like a child pulling petals off a daisy, thought Jon. "Leathers, talk to him, calm him. The Old Tongue, he understands the Old Tongue. Keep back, the rest of you. Put away your steel, we’re scaring him.”

Couldn’t they see the giant had been cut? Jon had to put an end to this or more men would die. They had no idea of Wun Wun’s strength. A horn, I need a horn. He saw the glint of steel, turned toward it. “No blades! ” he screamed. “Wick, put that knife …”

… away, he meant to say. When Wick Whittlestick slashed at his throat, the word turned into a grunt. Jon twisted from the knife, just enough so it barely grazed his skin. He cut me. When he put his hand to the side of his neck, blood welled between his fingers. “Why? ”

“For the Watch.” Wick slashed at him again. This time Jon caught his wrist and bent his arm back until he dropped the dagger. The gangling steward backed away, his hands upraised as if to say, Not me, it was not me. Men were screaming. Jon reached for Longclaw, but his fingers had grown stiff and clumsy. Somehow he could not seem to get the sword free of its scabbard.

Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. [NOTE: tears are made of… salt…] “For the Watch.” He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it.

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. “Ghost,” he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold…

… and, who has the show confirmed as being r+l?


it’s jon.

it’s always been jon and it’s always going to be jon on his own. dany will be important af, whoever else rides the third dragon is gonna be hella important (I have a theory which is probably wrong but whatever grrm will have to pry it from me), but tptwp/AA is jon. and R said ‘his is the song of ice and fire’, not ‘the song of ice and fire is for tptwp and AA’. like. it seems fairly obvious textually to me that there’s no way it’s anyone but jon snow, who by the way in theory has had his nissa nissa moment with ygritte if you take it sorta literally and in a lot other ways if you take it very imaginatively.

you’re totally welcome to think it’s both of them, but according to me it’s just him, never mind that dany is all targ, he is half stark and half targ…. so…. ice and fire. like. it’s so trasparent I just can’t think that there has to be something even more complicated to it. *shrug*

anonymous asked:

what do you think of the stupid "prince or princess" shenanigans? JON IS AZOR AHAI NOT ahdsfsdgs DAENERYS!

red herring if there ever was one + melisandre knowing her chickens as we say here (as in, she knew she had to make dany agree to see jon). lol. guys tptwp is jon, azor ahai is jon and the song of ice and fire is jon’s people need to make peace with it within the show and outside it

anonymous asked:

I don't think Sansa wanted to direspect or blame Ned and Robb when she said "stupid decisions". She lived in Kingslanding, she watched her father die because he trusted other people words, where sir Barristan was humiliated publically after a glorious career, where Tyrion was dismissed after saving the city from certain fall. Then there is the whole Littlefinger chapter, and I suppose she knows how and why jon was killed. 1/2

For her it’s stupid to base your decisions on honour, because people are not honorable. I didn’t read anything else in it. And, to be honest, she was right about the Umber and the Karstark: in a world where all that matters is the family name, why anyone should hold on their pleadges if there are no consequences after? I’m not saying she was right, but her point was not wrong. Said that, I agree with everything else

eh, the problem is: that’s not sansa. and half of that speech is like… d&d trashing robb because of things they made him do? okay wait rewind:

  • ned died because he was honorable, sure but he also died because joffrey was a little psychopath and he actually died in dishonor because… he took the chance varys told him she worked hard to get him. like. varys literally told him don’t make your daughter’s effort go to waste and he sacrificed his **honor** to live because sansa begged the lannisters to let him, she saw ned die in front of her when they all thought he’d go to the wall and…. I have to buy that speech?
  • robb: in the book robb wasn’t half as idiotic as in the show and it was d&d who basically trashed his character just to have others trash him post-mortem. that speech sounded like sansa was red wedding-blaming him and cat and honestly…. like… I can expect that crap from my villain origin story and her friends, not from his sister when like, in the original thing the entire north is so horrified at the rw they’re all planning to avenge it;
  • how and why jon was killed: I suppose he told her, but he died because he couldn’t talk to people, not because he was taking poor decisions or not accepting advice, and last season was the feast of sansa complaining he didn’t accept her advice when she didn’t give it to him in the first place and like, should he read her mind? whut? I mean, no?
  • also the thing with the karstarks and the umbers is not honorable, it’s smart, and it’s…. the contrary of what robb did with the karstark he killed which btw everyone jumped on him for? like, robb killed the guy because he killed the two lannister prisoners and lost half of his army for it (honor, and he couldn’t do otherwise lest he’d look like he couldn’t hold his own men, and in the book it was plenty more tragic) and people back then were jumping on him like WHAT AN IDIOT HE SHOULDN’T HAVE KILLED HIS ALLY FOR THE LANNISTERS EVEN IF HE BETRAYED HIS DIRECT ORDERS!
  • and like… jon… has… done the contrary? like instead of killing people who betrayed him who aren’t responsible (differently from robb’s karstark) he gave them back their lands so he can count on people who are grateful to him because they could be dead and instead he kept them in their place and who, for that, should be safer allies since they owe their wealth and lands to him and not to anyone else. and like, blaming kids for their fathers’ faults is the eye for an eye thing that the sooner done with the better and the fact that jon has the forward thinking to not wanting to do it after having experienced it at the wall and realizing it wasn’t who he wanted to be is a good thing. and anyway sansa had no right to go and question it in front of other people, period, because it’s like completely fucking stupid especially if you don’t want to make him look like he can’t hold his own ground.

like, I get what they wanted us to think but given that book sansa would have never and that the above really reads badly, I can’t get behind either point :/

haljathefangirlcat  asked:

Janie imagine Modern AU! Jon and Sam taking selfies together and Sam gets all like "don't do the puppy dog! I'm the puppy dog guy here, you're the good-looking guy" but then Jon is like "I thought *you* were the good-looking guy" and Sam just kind of dies there and then

…. you ask I deliver, I couldn’t resist.

“I don’t… get it?” 

Fine, so maybe Sam had expected a bit more enthusiasm about his proposal, but then again he had forgotten that Jon’s cellphone is still… his father’s old Nokia 3310 whose most complicated function is playing Snake and he grimaces every time someone uses the word app in front of him. Maybe let’s take a few selfies doesn’t sound like a stellar prospect to him.

“There isn’t much to get,” Sam shrugs, taking out of his pocket the brand new phone he bought with the money he gets for giving private lessons to most of the grades below theirs. And hadn’t it felt good to buy himself a nice thing that had nothing to do with his father’s earnings, but that’s an entire other problem. “You just, like, look at the camera and snap and it takes a picture of you that you can see and then you put it on Instagram.”


“A social network where you make pictures prettier.”

Jon doesn’t still seem to get it, but then he shrugs. “I still don’t get the appeal but if you want it, sure. I mean, costs me nothing.”

Okay, Sam isn’t going to tell him that his appeal is that - they really don’t have that many pictures together and most of the existing ones are in Ned and Catelyn’s family albums and were still developed with film, because of course his father never let Sam’s mother take birthday party pictures or anything of the kind, and he’s never liked Jon much in the first place. And he knows his crush that he’s harbored for the last couple years or so is going nowhere, like hell Jon would be interested in him as anything other than the very best mates they’re now, but he kind of wants a few pictures of the two of them to look at, okay? And everyone is taking selfies these days, no one would find it suspicious.

Keep reading

also last thing about the AA debate that I forgot

guys the fact that we know that r+l=j and all the things that make it plausible that jon is AA doesn’t mean that people in verse do. actually for people in-verse, jon being AA is the least likely options and if you told him he’d go like what. no one in-verse suspects even vaguely that it’s jon and when melisandre saw him in the fire she thought r’hollor had been smoking something good that evening. to them, when the reveal happens, it’s going to be like omg wtf while to us no, if it was dany it wouldn’t be xD


❝ He woke to the sight of his own breath misting in the cold morning air. […] Jon reached to pull aside the cloak he’d hung over the rock, and found it stiff and frozen. He crept beneath it and stood up in a forest turned to crystal. The pale pink light of dawn sparkled on branch and leaf and stone. Every blade of grass was carved from emerald, every drip of water turned to diamond. Flowers and mushrooms alike wore coats of glass. Even the mud puddles had a bright brown sheen. Through the shimmering greenery, the black tents of his brothers were encased in a fine glaze of ice. So there is magic beyond the Wall after all. He found himself thinking of his sisters, perhaps because he’d dreamed of them last night. Sansa would call this an enchantment, and tears would fill her eyes at the wonder of it, but Arya would run out laughing and shouting, wanting to touch it all.❞