You don't think Red is Liz's father? I think it's been pretty obvious since day one, but I guess not everyone interprets it the same way..
No, I don’t, and I think it’s been pretty obvious from day one that he’s NOT her dad.
I’ll start with the music.
In episode 3 “Wujing”, the song “Here with Me” is played:
Caught in the riptide I was searching for the truth There was a reason I collided into you
Calling your name in the midnight hour
Reaching for you from the endless dream
So many miles between us now
But you are always here with me
Pretty shippy stuff, there, but on we go.
In episode 5 “The Courier”, the song “Wicked Game” is played when Liz goes to Red at the Hempstead House and she says she didn’t have anywhere else to go, and Newton Phillips tells him his future has arrived.
No I don’t want to fall in love (this girl is only gonna break your heart)
Now, of all the songs they could have chosen, they chose THAT one. If they wanted us to think he was her father, then they should have stayed away from songs that have those kinds of lyrics.
In episode 20 “The Kingmaker”, the song “Sweetheart, What Have You Done To Us” is played after Liz tells Red she’s done with him.
Sweetheart, what have you done to us? I turned my back and you turned to dust
What have you done?
And oh please, just come here, don’t fight with me
And I admit, think you may have broken it, yeah I admit
And if all you wanted was songs for you
Well here goes, after all that you’ve put me through
Here’s one for you
And don’t call me lover, it’s not enough
It’s got to be tough, cynical stuff
Follow my words to the end of our love
And God, you were the one who told me not to be
Sweetheart, what have you done to our love?
More love references. Interesting.
And in Episode 21 “Berlin, Conclusion”, the song “Just Breathe” is played when Liz returns to Red just before he’s set to leave the country and Liz for good.
Stay with me You’re all I see…
Did I say that I need you?
Did I say that I want you?
Oh, if I didn’t I’m a fool you see
No one knows this more than me
Again, I’m not seeing the fatherly connotations here. *shrugs* I’m not going to go in-depth with season 2 because I haven’t had the time to go through the songs, but I think I’ve made my point.
Now on to the physical evidence.
In the original pilot script for episode 1, it has Red asking Liz if he can touch her scar. She allows him to, and he strokes it in a weirdly erotic way. (which ended up being cut) There are clear sexual undertones that were used by Spader in the actual scene that were far from fatherly.
In episode 2 “The Freelancer”, Red tells Liz she can be his girlfriend from Ann Arbor. If my dad did that, I would be weirded out big time.
In episode 3 “Wujing”, Red talks to Liz about the G-spot. He also says “he has her” in response to her saying he has no one.
In episode 6 “Gina Zanetakos“, he comforts her and tells her she can trust him.
In episode 10 “Anslo Garrick, Conclusion”, Liz outright asks Red if he’s her father. He answers no. People think his hesitation means he was lying, I think it means there’s a lot more to the story. Most likely that he killed her real father.
In episode 13 “The Cyprus Agency”, Red tells Diane Fowler that he doesn’t know what happened to his family.
In episode 17 “Ivan”, Red tells Liz he has never lied to her, which backs up his NO in Anslo Garrick.
In episode 21, “Berlin, Conclusion”, Red tells Liz that her father died in the fire. People think he means metaphorically, which I think is a load of bull (sorry not sorry).
In season 2 episode 2 “Monarch Douglas Bank”, we find out that Red’s daughter Jennifer had gone missing from witness protection 5 years previous. Red’s never mentioned having two daughters, btw. And he’s known Liz for years, so why would he look so sad when watching the video with his daughter playing with bubbles in season 1?
In season 2 episode 3 “Dr. James Covington”, Liz’s dream scene with Red asking “What do you really want?” has clear sexual overtones. Plus Bokenkamp tweeted that that scene was “A
little overly sexual #Lizzington”
In season 2 episode 9 “Luther Braxton”, the hideous fish conversation. Nuff’ said.
In season 2 episode 10 “Luther Braxton, Conclusion”, Braxton calls Liz Red’s girlfriend while talking on the phone.
I could keep going, but I think the most recent episodes have been well-covered. I.E. The tango scene, the scene where Red pretty much admits that he took care of Liz over her life because of guilt etc, etc.
One last thing. Megan Boone herself has referenced Red and Liz’s journey as a “love story”. Do with that what you will.
The producers also said on the DVD commentary that they never intended for Red to be her father, but when the audience began to question it, they just went with it and began the long tease.
Daniel Knauf himself tweeted me and said that they have answered the father question “several times. Out loud.”
I’m genuinely curious as to why you think he’s her father. Can you break it down for me like I have for you? (I’m being serious)
Red and Liz Touch Summary - Berlin: Conclusion, S1E22
One touch and it was the second time we’ve seen Liz touch Red. She held his arm as they entered the party in The Freelancer, S1E2, but this is the first time we’ve seen her initiate the touch (though the circumstances aren’t quite what we hoped for).
However, there were so many moments in this episode that were more important than that touch.
—Berlin Conclusion director’s commentary, on their anticipation of Spader’s portrayal of Ultron.
UNF Spader in spandex? YES PLEASE. Setting aside the obvious *lunchbox* appeal, the alliteration even sounds nice.
Oh yes, and they originally planned an affair between Ressler and Meera. Their reason for cutting it? The show is only 42 minutes long, and they didn’t want to distract from the important relationship, which is between Liz and Red.
There’s also a fair amount of discussion about that paternity nonsense. Long story short, they didn’t expect the audience to immediately assume that Red is her father. Paternity was never intended to be one of the show’s mysteries. It isn’t interesting enough, so they considered it a non-issue. When they finally gave in to the demands to address the issue, they thought they had done it successfully, until it aired and a sizeable amount of their viewers on social media dug in their heels and stubbornly continued to believe that Red’s her father, and that he either lied or was speaking metaphorically. It then became an accidental corner stone. They reiterated that no matter what, Red CAN NOT LIE TO LIZZIE, but after the reaction they got over Red saying he isn’t her father, TPTB decided to roll with it. They started peppering the scripts with ambiguity in order to keep the question alive. Since Red can’t lie to Lizzie, coming up with ways to drag on daddygate is actually more difficult than one would expect. They’re particularly proud of their use of Tom taunting Liz about Red.
I’m with TPTB on their opinions/intentions, but I resent the way they’re handling it. Paternity is NOT one of The Blacklist’s great mysteries. It is NOT a daddy/daughter show, and not once was it ever meant to be. I hate how they’re dragging it out. All those ambiguous and stupid, “See? I told you he’s the dad” moments are MEANT TO mislead and make people say exactly that.
Oh yes, ALSO, they originally planned to put Red’s scar scene at the end of episode 9. They bumped it to the very end of the season in an effort to make both the daddygaters and the sane people consider the possibility that they’re wrong. I can’t say that it worked for me, but I do know at least a few people that questioned their stances.
For the sake of showing that Red wouldn’t come out of the box for anyone but Liz (not even his best friend!) Dembe was actually killed in the Anslo Pt1 script. When James got the script, he was like, “Hell no!” He wasn’t gonna let that BS fly. JAMES SAVED DEMBE. And this. THIS. This is why I trust James much more than the writers. He just improves everything.
Okay, so I’ve already edited this a few times to add more, but I’m not done yet!
In the pilot commentary, during the scar scene, they point out the creepy/erotic tone and how Red reacts to the sight of her scar like it’s his fetish. To drive it home, one of them makes a loud sound resembling a mashup of a purr and a gurgle. Gah.
In the scene that follows, where Red examines and critiques the war room whiteboard, they literally had no scripted lines. James ad libbed all of it. That’s his humorous disdain. That’s his smartass superiority. The little anecdotal stories were his idea, because it would demonstrate how Red has a connection with everyone. That’s how James gave Red the characteristic of randomly sharing odd little stories all the time. For the very same reason, he decided that Red would say goodbye to the bomb guy in German. Red knows everyone.
I’m really getting a kick out of TPTB happily gushing over everything he does.
We’ve reached the final round folks. The Pilot holds the third place and the last race will be between 1.04 and 1.09. I’ll keep the voting open the entire weekend and will of course post the results next monday with a discussion post attached to it. :D
Please make sure again to vote OFF the least liked from those two episodes left standing. If you want to double secure your vote, then write: I vote off (episode number), because I want (episode number) to win!
Thank you all again for participating. it has been fun. ;) now VOTE!