baby was turned into a plot device before he could actually find himself

"He Could Have Pie, He Just Won't Eat It Though...": On the Absence of Pie in Season 12 and the Demystification of Mary Winchester

I am prefacing this by saying that I haven’t watched the most recent episode yet, so if Dean and Co. happen to eat pie in 12x13 “Family Feud” I had no way of knowing it. :)

That said, in the end, even if Dean did enjoy a slice in this week’s episode, it really wouldn’t change a whole lot, because so far we have seen Dean very rarely eat one of his favorite types of food in S12: pie. Sure enough, the reason why we may see Dean not indulge in eating as much pie may be entirely be explained by things outside of the show - like maybe Jensen saying “man, please no more sweet stuff” ;) - still within the context of a show the absence of pie his season feels very telling. Especially so as pie for Dean definitely was a typ of comfort food and held a good deal of connotations and associations that all circled round notions of family, home, safety and love.

In the 12 seasons of Supernatural Dean’s love for pie has become just as infamous as his love for his baby. Even more so Dean’s eating habits as such have been used as an indicator for his emotional state of mind, his longings and wishes and especially over the course of the “Mark of Cain”-arc Dean’s hunger or lack thereof was drawn attention to as it revealed a lot about his emotional struggles (I have written lot on this topic, I’d insert links but as I am typing this on my phone I can’t) as well as the fight he faced within between human and demon. After all, little else is such a direct example of basic human necessities: the need to eat and drink to survive. That entire plot with Dean edging away from being human to becoming a demon was exemplified heaviest when Dean “left that cheeseburger uneaten” as Crowley reminisces before raising Dean as a demon in 9x23 “Do You Believe in Miracles”. Dean’s arc was contrasted with Castiel’s, who as a human for the very first time experienced hunger and thirst as two real necessities to be able to function.

The topic of hunger and food as indicators for humanity therefore have been very directly written into Dean’s personal story arcs from S8 onwards. Given this focus of recent seasons paired with the shows adamancy of inserting Dean’s love for pie as a recurring stylistic device over 12 seasons of the show in general, it feels very striking that Dean seems to have lost his taste or love for pie in S12 almost completely - the season in which he sees his mother returning from the dead.

As mentioned above Dean’s love for pie seems to be to a good extent directly connected to the memory and love of his mother. In fact, 5x16 “Dark Side of the Moon” even gives the audience as much of a “starting point” as to how Dean’s love for pie came to be in the first place when we see one of Dean’s memories play out in which we (as much as Sam) learn that the Winchesters’ “marriage was never perfect until after Mary died” and that Dean comforted his mother when his father had moved out for a couple of days after a bad fight (one now has to wonder if maybe that could have been due to Mary disappearing and hunting), told her that “daddy still loves her” and offered emotional support to his mother when he was a mere 4 years old. It’s that memory standing out clearest in relation to Deans love for pie as Mary not much later after she calls Dean “her little angel” offers him some pie. It’s by no means a truly happy memory imo, especially as it does kind of showcase how Mary tries to lighten the mood with the offer of pie. It’s this action really that frames and explains Dean using pie as “comfort food” in the most literal sense of the term. So of course this will sound somewhat over the top, but one could argue that every time Dean enjoyed a slice of pie in his life he remembered this moment with his mom. A moment nonetheless in which he again acted almost like an adult rather than a child (and yes, that is suppose will just always remain the tragedy of Dean Winchester: his lost childhood, that, as the show progresses, it seems was lost much earlier than when his mother died…

Keeping all of this in mind I think it is interesting to take a look at S12. The season of Mary Winchesters return. The undoing of the past. But for sure not the erasure of old wounds, scars or traumas, but rather the start to add a few new on top. Amara giving Dean “what he needed most” was his mother. She gave the Winchesters a chance to re-write their story, because maybe she wished her and her brother could do the same. What Amara wanted - and there is not a single doubt in my mind, because even though Dabb seems to have forgotten what he himself wrote at the end of last season, Amara wasn’t cruel just cause - was for Dean to be happy and find peace. Little did she know that bringing back the Winchesters’ mom would hardly bring that for him.

Now, as I have written about multiple times at the end of last season and prior the beginning of this season with Mary’s return we aren’t just loosely following the possible re-write of the Winchesters’ story (though much of this season to me feels sadly like “same old same old” and plain repeat), most of all we see the demystification of Mary Winchester - and that may actually be one of the most painful ones for the Winchesters and Dean especially as it seems countless times he is proven that his mother really is nothing like he remembered her to be. Of course there are few characters that have had such a “cult” surrounding them on the show as Mary Winchester. Her own children never really got to know her as a person as they simply were way too small for that to be the case, yet over time Mary was stylized, idealized and turned into a symbol that had very little in common with the very real Mary Winchester - as this season explores.

Not a single episode this season didn’t feature some sort of deconstruction of Mary Winchester as a person and character or a realization of who she is opposed to how she was imagined to be. It’s vital to see things for what they are, but there’s no denying it’s tough and eliminates foundations that provided at least some sense of stability - and so far we have not seen any kind of building new ground together for a stronger and more mature foundation. In the first episodes Dean learns that Mary “never cooked” or “continued hunting even when she was already married” and that many of his memories are unveiled to have been “false”. Getting to know their mother really is a constant progression of disillusionment for the Winchesters (and for Dean much more than for Sam since he doesn’t have any memories that could be rendered untrue or incomplete or downright “wrong”) and while I firmly believe that Mary does somehow care about her grown up sons, true emotion and connection doesn’t seem to be there. And one can’t really blame anyone for that because of course for Mary suddenly being alive is hard and she never learnt how to have grown up kids, because well… she never lived to have them in a natural progression.

Still, I think it is fairly well portrayed how much Mary struggles to form a meaningful connection with Sam and Dean. A relationship that could build into becoming the loving relationship that meant safety and home and everything being okay for Dean for example as seen in his memories - and one memory in particular featuring pie. Coming back to the symbolic meaning of pie again I think it’s valid to analyze the absence of it in S12 (I truly only remember Dean eating pie in 2nd episode when all was still fairly “okay” and happiness prevailing over Mary being back rather than the start reality setting in) in relation to the demystification of Mary as a symbol and mother figure. Pie may simply not provide the comfort and safety it once did for Dean, because like so much of his past and memories regarding his mother have been overturned and corrected, but not in a very healing - or worded differently - comforting way.

So in a way this season exemplifies imo rather perfectly the saying “You can’t have your pie and eat it too”, which describes you can’t have two good things at the same time, which seems awfully fitting to the whole Mary Winchester arc. And in that regard I think it is indeed very revealing how now that Mary is back “Dean could have pie”, but we don’t see him eat it…

Why It’s Fitting for Jason Statham to Join the ‘Fast’ Family in ‘Fate of the Furious’ (Commentary)

Spoiler warning: Major details plot from “The Fate of the Furious” below.

We’ve reached a fascinating point in our collective consumption of the “Fast and Furious” franchise with “The Fate of the Furious.” The perception of these movies has gone from open disdain for the first quartet of flicks to a sort of ironic joy with “Fast Five” and “Fast & Furious 6” to “people are actually kinda taking this seriously now” in the wake of “Furious 7.”

Which has led to some pretty severe backlash over “Fate” thanks to the creative decision to allow Deckard Shaw (Jason Statham) to become a member of the #family at the core of the series. Deckard is just one movie removed from having murdered #family member Han (Sung Kang), after all, so it does make sense that folks would have some trouble with this.

But, while not as smooth a transition as it should have been, Deckard’s turn to the light is definitely given enough justification in “Fate,” both in terms of the actual plot and in theme.

Also Read: 21 ‘Fast and Furious’ Villains Ranked, From Deckard Shaw to Dom in 'Fate’ (Photos)

Shaw’s redemption is set up within the plot by a convenient retcon of “Fast & Furious 6” — that “Fate” villain Cipher (Charlize Theron) was the real power behind Owen Shaw’s (Luke Evans) attempt to steal the nightshade device in that movie. Shaw of course ended up in a coma after Dominic Toretto (Vin Diesel) and his #family stop him, and Deckard (Owen’s older brother) spent all of “Furious 7” trying to hunt down and kill them in return. But Cipher’s reveal as the prime mover of Owen’s mistakes means Deckard’s anger at the Fast Family was misdirected. So Deckard, now given the opportunity exact revenge against the person who was truly responsible for putting Owen in a coma, comes through for the family in a legitimately huge and legitimately heroic way, by saving Dom’s secret baby son who was being held hostage by Cipher.

But ‘Fate’ also justifies Deckard’s redemption thematically.

In the film’s prologue, long before Deckard appears or is even referenced in the film. In that sequence, Dom beefs with a loan shark who wants to repossess his cousin’s old junker car. In retaliation, Dom challenges the jerk to a race for slips, and naturally wins. “You have my respect,” the jerk tells Dom after the race. “Your respect is enough,” Dom says in return, then lets the guy keep his car.

Cipher later berates him for it, and Dom’s comeback says everything you need to know about why he would even give Deckard a chance to redeem himself, much less let him stick around afterward: “This way, I changed him.”

Also Read: 83 of the 'Fast and Furious’ #Family’s Cars through 'Fate’ Ranked, Worst to Best (Photos)

That idea is more or less what the entire “Fast and Furious” franchise is about. People beef with Dom and Brian ways both big and small and then end up having Coronas together later. Also, there is precedent for someone being responsible for the death of a family member and then later becoming a family member themselves. That scenario already played out once, in fact.

So let’s talk about Gisele.

As you may recall, Gisele (Gal Gadot) featured in three “Fast and Furious” movies, entering in the fourth and exiting in the sixth when she died during the climactic runway chase. Gisele is, I’d say, the character who most clearly represents the ideals that the “Fast and Furious” #family is all about.

How exactly Gisele came to be a part of the family and what she was up to before is a memory that I suspect is hazy for most people — even a lot of self-proclaimed die-hard fans of the franchise. The fourth movie is not particularly well liked, and it wasn’t until “Fast Five” that most people found their emotional entry to the series. Not that “Fast and Furious” was some obscure franchise before that. There just weren’t that many obsessed fans back then, and nowadays folks tend to look down on no. 4 and “2 Fast 2 Furious” in particular.

Also Read: 30 'Fast and Furious’ Franchise Facts You Might Not Know (Photos)

But that fourth movie, confusingly titled “Fast & Furious,” is crucially important to remember when you’re watching “The Fate of the Furious,” because Gisele’s origin story and her later acceptance as part of the family is strikingly similar to something that folks are up in arms about with that latest entry in the series.

When we first met Gisele she was a high-ranking lieutenant in the Braga drug cartel — outranked, as far as we could tell, only by Braga himself (John Ortiz) and with Fenix (Laz Alonso) as her equal. Whereas Fenix acted as the dumb enforcer (and was the one who physically pulled the trigger on Letty), Gisele was the logistics person.

We met Gisele because Dom and Brian (Paul Walker) were trying to infiltrate the Braga cartel by posing as drivers-for-hire who would race drugs across the Mexico-U.S. border. Both had a very personal stake in that infiltration — the cartel had (apparently) murdered Dom’s girlfriend Letty (Michelle Rodriguez) after she infiltrated in the same way while working as a mole for the FBI… and Brian, to secure legal amnesty for Dom. And she wasn’t the only victim either: As Brian and Dom discover, after each drug run, Fenix would execute all the hired drivers, and Letty was a casualty of that brutal tactic.

Also Read: 'Los Bandoleros’ Is the Vin Diesel-Directed 'Fast and Furious’ Movie You’ve Probably Never Seen

At best, Gisele was an accomplice to Letty’s murder (and dozens of other murders, judging by the size of Braga’s multi-national operation). More likely, though, that whole “kill the drivers after each run to save on their paychecks” thing was her idea. Let’s not forget how she responded when Dom called her after he and Brian escaped in the aftermath of their Mexico run: “It’s just business.”

Let’s also not forget that, as a top lieutenant in a sprawling drug cartel, she was almost definitely involved in numerous other criminal activities that caused people being killed. Gisele may have been friendly at times, but she was a certified Bad Person.

And yet, when Brian and the FBI pulled a sting on Braga, and Fenix almost ran Gisele down as they escaped, Dom saved her life. In repayment, Gisele told him where to find Braga in Mexico. The next time we see her, she’s joining the crew in Brazil as they gear up to pull a $100 million heist on another drug lord. Everybody still thinks Letty’s dead, Brian and Dom and Mia all know she was responsible, but nobody’s getting on her about it.

Also Read: 'Fate of the Furious’: What Exactly is Cipher’s 'Zero Day’ Car Hack?

Given her very clear involvement in Letty’s murder, it would have made sense for Dom to want to kill her just as badly as he wanted to kill Braga and Fenix. But these movies aren’t about revenge. These movies are about redemption.

The “Fast and Furious” franchise is littered with characters who started out beefing with Dom or Brian before later helping them out. Those racers humiliated by Brian at the beginning of “2 Fast 2 Furious” showed up later to help him in the big shuffle at the end. A guy who lost his car to Dom in a race in Brazil pulled a gun on Hobbs for Dom ten minutes later. Hobbs himself was dead set on taking down Dom and Brian for the first 90 minutes of “Fast Five.” Elena, who by the way is revealed as the mother of Dom’s baby in “Fate,” was part of Hobbs’ team trying to take Dom and Brian down. And, of course, that terrible Cuban jerk we mentioned earlier? He showed up later on to help Dom out during “Fate’s” insane New York City carpocalypse scene.

In fact, the only reason Dom and Brian even met and went on to become #family co-patriarchs in this ridiculous eight-movie chain of events was because Brian was an undercover cop investigating Dom and the family — an extremely thorough betrayal of trust.

Also Read: 'Fate of the Furious’: Can a Submarine Really Outrun a Car?

Oh, and Letty and Dom’s old friend Han — the guy folks believe is being disrespected when Shaw is allowed his redemption — started dating Gisele even while everybody thought Letty was dead.

This is the true nature of the family. It’s about forgiveness and redemption. It’s about accepting each other’s immense flaws and looking past them. Pardon the cliche, but it’s not as though killing Deckard Shaw would bring Han back. But maybe, just maybe, if you give the guy a real chance to redeem himself and become a positive force — and then adopt him as your 49-year-old son — then maybe Han’s death would actually serve some purpose.

Back before all this madness began, when Dom was young, his father died in a stock car race when another driver named Kenny Linder tapped his bumper and he spun out. Dom took his revenge then, nearly beating the guy to death with a wrench. Linder came out the other side of that coma Dom put him in severely disabled, having to take the bus to his janitor job because he’s no longer capable of driving a car.

Also Read: 'The Fate of the Furious’: Meet the Man Who Built (and Wrecked) All of the Cars

So Dom took a different path with Gisele in “Fast & Furious” and, now, Deckard in “The Fate of the Furious.” Nobody forgot about Han. It’s just that Dom knows as well as anyone that what you’ve done in the past doesn’t have to define who you are in the future. You can be better. And being part of the family can make you better than better, because together they become so much more.

And that is the entire point of the franchise.

Related stories from TheWrap:

'Fate of the Furious’ Fact Check: Could Those Crazy Stunts Really Happen?

83 of the 'Fast and Furious’ #Family’s Cars through 'Fate’ Ranked, Worst to Best (Photos)

21 'Fast and Furious’ Villains Ranked, From Deckard Shaw to Dom in 'Fate’ (Photos)

Here’s the Order to Watch the Entire 'Fast and Furious’ Series (Including 'Los Bandoleros’)

30 'Fast and Furious’ Franchise Facts You Might Not Know (Photos)

anonymous asked:

Is it just me or is anyone else so offended by Rebecca's character because she is such a pale shadow of female representation? I'm outraged that in the 21st century a woman can be not even a set of character traits, but literally a walking (nice dressed) uterus who bends in the wind. No agency whatsoever. Deplorable! Rebecca makes me miss the 90s and the riot grrrl movement. She makes me want to daub myself in blood and put on a baby doll dress and scream into the abyss. What were they thinking?

ah anon, you know i can’t resist a good rebecca ask. it’s my weakness.

and like… you’re really not wrong.

i mean, i don’t know if it offends me - well, yes, it does, but i think rebecca was brought in for a few specific narrative purposes and i guess that’s ok in and of itself, but they’ve never fleshed her out into much of a real character beyond those purposes so she exists in her current iteration as a supporting character and they don’t seem to have any desire to change that. which. just makes it uncomfortable, the more you think about it. and apparently I’ve thought about it a bunch.

i think the other thing is… those narrative purposes she has are mostly related to male characters. they’ve fleshed this out a little but mostly she’s been fairly irrelevant to every storyline - except one. there is one storyline in which she is completely necessary in her function and it is clearly entirely the reason why she was brought in in the first place.

what i’m saying is that rebecca white literally exists to develop robert sugden as a character and prop up his relationship with aaron.

(you could maybe argue that she is important to the white storylines but those have had very little long term affects beyond the ways that link robert to the whites. i want to go into this more but i need to actually rewatch her white storyline stuff first, so maybe i’ll change my mind, but tbh it feels more like… her relationship with her family is a by-product of bringing her in for her main purpose of affecting robert and robron. again, that’s for another post)

but that in turn leads to her being written like an inconsistent plot device. i think i’ve sort of developed enough of a fanwanky reasoning behind her actions so far, but it doesn’t work as well as i’d like. it does essentially boil down to her being in love with robert, though - she’s, i think, actually a very tragic character and i have a lot of sympathy for her - but it takes a hell of a lot of mental gymnastics constantly to bring me back to that place, because the show doesn’t care enough to do it for us. and it’s annoying. because i do think they could make her story so compelling if they wanted to.

but ultimately they wouldn’t, because robert is in many ways a villain in her story and the story they want to tell is more robert being a villain in his own story (and again, that’s another post all on its own). they’re not telling rebecca’s story. not at all.

anyway! basically. female character essentially being the tool the show uses to explore male character robert and his relationships. great. g r e a t.

and because what’s the point in making big sweeping contentious statements if you can’t back them up:

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anonymous asked:

Thoughts on the last GF episode?

I loved it a lot, especially the Ford and Dipper plot (though Mabel’s was great as well). However, as these last few episodes have been coming out, there’s been something bugging me in the back of my mind that I didn’t want to mention. But… has anyone else been feeling like the second half of S2 feels a little rushed?

So far I’ve only had two tiny nitpicks with the show, one being the whole drawn out DipperxWendy plot and the other being the fact that S1 took so long to get to the meaty part of the overarching mystery. S2 definitely made up for/fixed both of these, but it’s starting to show an issue of its own.

I’ll be blunt: everything after AToTS feels rushed.Specifically, the development of the relationship between Ford and Dipper. Every other character relationship has grown very naturally and slowly. Especially between the twins and Stan. Stan started out a bit distant from the twins, then warmed up to them, and then - as the show went on - he grew to legitimately care for/love them. Same with their relationships with Soos, Wendy, and other characters. Soos goes from friendly coworker to an almost sort of big brother to the twins. Wendy goes from stereotypical teenager/crush to a helpful, adventuring hero that works alongside the twins as they progress through the mysteries behind the town.

But Ford? Ford is a blow to the plot’s face. Don’t get me wrong: I freaking love the guy. I love his design, personality, his role as the Author, him being someone for Dipper to look up to, the fact that he’s an old nerd that simultaneously plays DaD and builds interdimensional portals

But he’s abrupt. He’s a literal (literally literal) rift in the character’s relationships. Just as Mabel said in AToTS, “everything was simpler back when it was just us, Stan, and the occasional goblin monster”.

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Dread Doctors vs. Alpha Pack

The Alpha Pack was the most unfulfilling story line in all of Teen Wolf, and I say that even having watched every moment of the Benefactor plot line. It had no consequence.  They never actually completed their plot. Jennifer Blake was supposed to be an anomaly - she interrupted the plan. 

But – what if the Alpha Pack storyline wasn’t supposed to be over. 

And more importantly that the Dread Doctors have already been here for months?

  • Deucalion refers to himself as The Demon Wolf *cue lightning flash*. This is never expanded upon besides seeing him with blue skin like an Underworld reject. He does not appear to have superior skills. 
  • The Alpha Pack capture Erica and Boyd. Stiles suggests they’re going to “pit them together like werewolf thunderdome.” Although they do get Derek to consider killing them, and do leave Derek (and Scott, who was unexpected) in a two-on-one where he would be forced to kill or be killed, nothing ever really comes out of it.
  • Deuc almost kills Derek. Kali admits a werewolf could die from what she’s doing. Although he encourages Derek to join them, he doesn’t focus anything positive on him. It’s almost like an after thought. 
  • Isaac, when going through his memories (in the ONLY SuperAlpha MindFuck) in the ice bath says “They see me! They’re here!” while the lights freak the fuck out. This is a perfect set up to the Doctors, even down to the odd time cut between when Isaac pops out of the bath while the rest of them are casually standing around waiting. Isaac has no memory of saying “It’s Erica - she’s dead” and has to be told by Stiles. The last thing he remembers is how to get to where they are.
  • Derek dies. Repeatedly. He dies more than anyone else. He has come back to life more than Peter and Julia combined. Death fucking hates Derek Hale. Alpha claws to the lungs? No big deal. Wolfsbane to the bloodstream? All good here. Shot to death without healing factor? Level up! 
  • The scene where Derek is “sleeping”, sitting upright and holding a book in mid daylight, and didn’t notice an Alpha sneaking around his loft to paint a fucking Alpha symbol? They must have used a ladder on the balcony. They painted in broad daylight, on a window 10 feet away from his bed. Cora’s odd little face? Seems like someone forgot a chunk of time. 
  • Braeden survives Deucalion’s attack. Could she have been a successful chimera? 
  • Kate has an odd scene where she jolts awake in her car, in the middle of a storm, and suddenly presses Play on her tape deck. The tape leads her to believe that getting into the Hale vault would get her control of her shift (via the totem). She then finds the Berserkrs, who were already waiting for her, and puts Derek behind a wall – just like Belasko, someone who was assumedly already a werewolf before his experiments. Derek then has the most odd and unexplained transformation ever. BUT it would make sense if Kate was visited by the DD’s. 
  • Jackson has a moment with Dr. Fenris where he imagines Fenris doing horrible things to his Mind Fuck wound. He then believes them to be a hallucination. Dr. Fenris, the doctor obsessed with the supernatural, ends up at Eichen House and is there when Kira goes haywire. (This is possibly a result of his visit from Scott and Stiles in Search for the Cure, where Scott kind of suggests that maybe he’s not crazy and maybe Scott is supernatural.) As Eichen House holds a variety of supernaturals, Fenris would be supplying the Dread Doctors with their DNA (as they cannot come onto the property themselves.) 
  • Stiles, on his way to the Nemeton, experiences a lightning flash that causes him to crash his Jeep and pass out with a head wound. While this does explain why he’s late to the root cellar, it’s also been a cause of speculation as to why this and not have him just trip a lot in the woods.
  • Stiles stabs the scissors into his bed, with the red strings attached. It’s never actually explained what exactly he was connecting. (This could just be a poor plot and was meant to be “I am the nogitsune”)
  • Lydia, after Allison has an odd vision of her flailing and bloody in the hospital room, escapes and hides naked in the woods for 3 days without any ill side effects other than losing 9 lbs. Buried alive? Like the chimeras, she has fugue states and is unaffected by mountain ash. However, she also has precedent as a Banshee with her grandmother BUT her grandmother also had precedent with seeing/foreseeing the Doctors “coming for all of us”. (The Benefactor plot line also feels like the Wild Hunt,and Parrish technically shows up right around then.)
  • Allison found her phone turned off and a message about Eichen House on it. This was never explained. It could have been a message from the Doctors, who can manipulate electrical devices, to lead her to there. She could have also been the intended vessel for the nogitsune. She also had a dream about Doctors, with Kate, surrounding and devouring her during her autopsy. Her introduction to werewolves actually started with La Bete – the necklace Kate gave her, the picture that triggered Lydia, the one seen in the library in season 5 and awkwardly chanted by the DD’s. How much would you love to see Crystal Reed come back as La Bete ? Right?!
  • The Desert Wolf shows up while Deaton is talking about in-utero experiments. Could the Desert Wolf have been involuntarily impregnated with an “abomination” baby, and been driven to find and kill it? Was Malia (who faced both the Berserkrs and the Dread Doctors themselves) a sleeper agent who was given for adoption until needed or was she taken and placed in “protective custody” by Talia (via Peter)? Is that what Peter really forgot?
  • Peter believes that Talia took his memories of the Nemeton. Is Peter really missing memories of the Dread Doctors, and confused? Is he really Malia’s father? Did he willingly procreate with the DW, or were they both captured for their unique DNA? (Born wolf, true coyote.)
  • Desert Wolf (similar code name to Demon Wolf) killed Malia’s whole family to get to her daughter, and it sounds like she either confirmed Malia was dead OR she assumed the girl in the car (with the doll) was her daughter while Malia actually shifted and ran. Was she also responsible for other car accidents, like Jackson’s parents? (That would have actually been prior to killing Malia)