It’s always strange to me when people say that the Abrahamic God is genderless, but he just happens to use male pronouns and be referred to as the Father, not to mention that he came to Earth as a man in the form of Jesus. Trying to justify making your only god male is one thing, but claiming that he has no gender despite being very obviously gendered is a whole other kind of mental gymnastics that I just can’t fathom.
“The atheist is free to concentrate on the fate of this world — whether that means visiting a friend in a hospital or advocating for tougher gun control laws — without trying to square things with an unseen overlord in the next.
Atheists do not want to deny religious believers the comfort of their faith. We do want our fellow citizens to respect our deeply held conviction that the absence of an afterlife lends a greater, not a lesser, moral importance to our actions on earth.” - Susan Jacoby
“All the mythic versions of women, from the myth of the redeeming purity of the virgin to that of the healing, reconciliatory mother, are consolatory nonsenses; and consolatory nonsense seems to me a fair definition of myth, anyway. Mother goddesses are just as silly a notion as father gods. If a revival of the myths gives women emotional satisfaction, it does so at the price of obscuring the real conditions of life. This is why they were invented in the first place.” - Angela Carter
I can’t stand it when someone refers to groups of people as one single certain characteristic (ex: “whites”, “blacks”, “gays”, “straights”, etc) because it’s just??????? so dehumanizing???? it’s reducing a person to that one specific element???? idk I just really can’t stand it
As a final post on this “discourse” sideblog, I want to talk about something not specific to the ace discourse, but rather something that cuts across all groups, all people online or off. Whatever you are arguing or whatever side you are on, we as humans are prone to confirmation bias and the online world is no better place than to create echo-chambers.
I have always felt that teaching myself skepticism was one of the best things I could have done for myself. It was during that time I was also active in the atheist community, online and off. The skeptic and atheist community often overlapped and it was from these groups that I became a feminist.
New atheist groups often wonder why they are largely made up of white men, and if you challenge them on their sexism/racism etc… it becomes obvious why, which is what happened to me. I was the darling women on a majority male forum agreeing with them that religion is the source of all evil, therefore exempting atheist men from things like sexism and all other bigotries. It wasn’t until an argument about rape culture came up that I saw just how deeply misogynist some of these men were.
So my venture into skeptic and atheist groups not only taught me the scientific process and logical fallacies but it also steered me towards social justice. I am no longer friends with any of those people in real life or online. Once I became a feminist and was able to identify their sexism, I wasn’t their darling atheist spokeswoman anymore. It was another valuable lesson in the way people form their groups and their echo-chambers within. How people will ignore some really bad things just to stay included and how they will turn when someone strays. Some people may be thinking of trump supporters now, but everyone is susceptible to this type of behavior.
Fast forward a few years later, but still a few years ago and I had to deal with a callout on an anonymous forum I moderated bc they monitored my tumblr and I made the sin of reblog from and being in mutuals with the wrong people, (who were just ppl they didn’t like including people I’ve since met IRL.) I was dubbed a transphobe not for anything I explicitly said or did that was transphobic, it was guilt by association. Had to leave the forum, as this was also invitation to make up other horrible things I never did bc they could and now ppl were ready to believe.
This is around the time TERF started catching on, and while I certainly agree with calling out transphobia in feminism (I would never insist a trans woman is male, I think thats a violent act against trans women! And I despise it being done in the name of feminism) but at the same time it turned into a witch hunt for anyone who talked about sex-based oppression that even ended up attacking other trans woman for not towing a certain Tumblr rhetoric on these issues!
I’m no LGBT elder by any means, but I have been online since I was about 12 and I’m 32 now. I remember a time when the internet was far more horrible on SJ matters but also far more anonymous. People never dropped their real name; now one of the biggest social media sites requires it. And before that even happened I still saw a lot of petty bullshit happening online that wound up really hurting people IRL. So now with it easier to find out who people are and where they live, I can only imagine how online drama has ruined lives. We know it has driven people to suicide, and so as fun as it is to get self righteously angry at people for whatever your cause is, there’s still a person at the other end and no one’s perfect.
I am truly disturbed at how incredibly cliquey SJ groups are online, how callout posts aren’t for extreme racist sexist bigots, but for some drama I can’t even parse in their so called “proof”. And then you have activists on this site who block anyone who disagrees with them so their criticisms can’t show up in the notes. Some even go so far as dox people now for daring to disagree! K(And let’s be clear, I shed no tears for literal nazis being doxxed and losing their job, that’s just not what I’m seeing)
It’s easy, its human nature to fall into social pressures and conform to whatever the Big Names in your group are saying without question and to defend an absurd position based on emotional attachment than logical assessment. And we know it’s also easy to fall into a mob mentality and scapegoat people for all our problems. It’s also super fucking easy to plead mental illness and pretend you should be allowed to say anything you want without criticism, something that I hate so much as one who suffers from many mental issues including anxiety. (That’s why I created rules for myself when arguing online so I didn’t end up giving myself panic attacks over an internet edge lord)
I say this knowing I have participated in this behavior myself as well as having been a victim of it. But a lot in my life has changed and I am an older and sicker… and still likely to make similar mistakes. Point is I have learned and I have trained myself to not to fall into these traps and it does help. Experience is one hell of a teacher but it doesn’t have to be the only one.
No one can know if they are 100% right on any given issue, we all have our convictions for a reason. The difference is are you willing to listen to dissent? Are you willing to challenge your opinion and put it to the test? Or do you make block lists and shun anyone who entertains any different opinion? (a classic tactic amongst anti-vax groups when a parent sees the science) My convinction of many of my beliefs comes from the fact I have argued them over and over again, discharging beliefs that did not pass the test, while strengthening my arguments for and belief in those that do.
Make no mistake, when it does come to the so called “discourse” both sides can be guilty of this shit. I claim no purity.
And I am in no way implying that we tolerate hate groups and violent hate speech, like those of nazis bc unfortunately nazis are actually relevant again, but I am saying some of you need a reality check on what that exactly entails, because a lesbian speaking her truth is not it.
And for god sakes don’t put teens on block lists, you know it invites harassment, you fucking know it.
1549: The Prayer Book Rebellion: At the Battle of Sampford Courtenay a royal army crushes the last of the Western Rising. Over a thousand are killed.
1861: Coal miners in New South Wales in Australia refuse a 20% wage cut and walk out. They are locked out until October.
1862: The Dakota War begins in Minnesota as Lakota warriors attack settlements along the Minnesota River.
1868: Libertarian socialist Edward Abramowski born in Stefanin, Ukraine. He was a psychologist, ethician, and supporter of cooperativesis considered to be a spiritual father of Anarchism in Poland.
1883: Militant individualist anarchist Jeanne Morand born in France. She was a member of the Bonnot Gang.
1885: Anarcho-syndicalist Clara Meijer-Wichmann born in Hamburg, Germany. She was a feminist atheist lawyer and writer.
1887: Marcus Garvey born in Saint Ann’s Bay, Jamaica. He was a political leader and influential figure in Black Nationalist movement.
1895: Anarchist Nicholas Lazarevitch born in Liege, Belgium. He co-wrote The Platform.
1909: Indian revolutionary Madan Lal Dhingra is executed for his assassination of Sir Curzon Wyllie in London.
1913: Maynard Shipley debates with the renowned anarchist Emma Goldman, in Everett, Washington.
1936: Floyd “Red Crow” Westerman was born in Lake Traverse Indian Reservation, South Dakota. He was a widely know Sioux musician, political activist for Native American rights, and actor.
1939: Anarchist Toma Toma Ŝik born in Hungary. He was a Hungarian-Israeli peace activist, libertarian socialist, vegan, and a pioneer of the Israeli-Palestinian search for peace and a survivor of the Holocaust.
1944: Spanish militant CNT member Francisco Ponzán Vidal dies in Buzet-sur-Tarn, France.
1945: Communist Party MP Phil Piratin makes his first speech in UK Houses of Parliament.
1946: Almost all of the members of the Regional Committee of Catalonia along with other CNT activists are arrested: a total of 39 comrades ended up in jail.
1963: Francisco Franco wrongly executes the anarchists Francisco Granados and Joaquín Delgado in the Carabanchel prison, for crimes they did not commit.
1970: Angela Davis appears on the FBI’s Ten Most Wanted list after a firearm purchased in her name is linked to a murder plot involving a judge.
1973: Pride Week 1973, a national LGBT rights event, takes place simultaneously in several Canadian cities.
2000: The North American Anarchist Conference ends in Los Angeles. A transcontinental gathering of anarchists in the days before the 2000 Democratic National Convention
Yesterday I was at a family dinner. I have a huge family and most my cousins are girls with their own batch of kids (since all my girl cousins are married). I was sitting there between them (the only single girl in the family) and for the first time ever I had nothing to talk about with them.
It was sad that I didn’t fit in. It wasn’t sad because I wasn’t married. It was sad because those cousins who were once HAPPY and carefree were running after their kids who were destroying everything in sight with a pained expression on their face. They were sitting listening to their husbands joke about sexist things. They had nothing more to talk about than baby formulas, husband troubles, how badly their in laws treat them.
And when they finally saw me sitting quietly among all that craziness, they asked me about my job and my car. When I started talking about how I have this new exciting project and how I’ve finally started driving alone and how much I enjoy it even in Pakistani traffic, I see their faces fall and they looking over to their husbands and quietly whispering about how I am doing something so different and they wish they the guts to drive but they dont. They wish they had pursued a career but they havent. They wish they were free, but they are not.
And then they go back to talking about mommy things and bitching about independent girls behind my back because thats the only thing that makes them feel better about themselves.
It breaks my heart what women have been reduced to by culture and religion.
Malak Alshehri, Saudi woman arrested for not wearing a abaya in public. Where’s the feminist outrage?!
Hey feminists where tf are you?? Can you here me? Do you care? Does your “intersectional” “feminism” include me? 🙆🏻 I hate to break it to you but you’re not feminist and we ex Muslim women are going to reclaim feminism from you.
okay i cant believe that tampons are not allowed in islam because it’ll ruin your hymen or something?? First of all, back at it again with literally not knowing shit about hymens and how they work. second, thats so objectifying? I was in a muslim women health seminar when i learned this, and it was girls from ages 10 and up. Girls that little are being taught that they are worth their hymen. And they’re not even being given correct information about their own genitals, its just patriarchal lies to keep them in their place.
Do you know how annoying it is to go to sleep when im on my period worried that it might slip out of place while im sleeping and im gonna wake up in a pool of my blood all over the sheets?? Imagine if i could wear a tampon, how much more convenient that could be? But noo i cant because i have to “preserve” my vagina cuz its an object thats (supposedly) gonna be given to some man (that i don’t fucking know) to penetrate and use and i have to preserve it for some dirty muslim man ‘s pleasure and satisfaction at the expense of my own damn convenience. disgusting.
1 Timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
It’s hard to talk to an Atheist, a feminist or with someone that hates Christianity in general and not hear them quote this verse as they think Paul is completely prohibiting women from being able to do anything or have any kind of say in the Church.
Many people see this verse as inequality of the sexes in the Church and Christian life. Many think women are therefore completely forbidden to take any part of the spreading of the Gospel, but they couldn’t be more wrong.
Paul’s meaning is clear: women are not to have the role of teaching authority in the church. To be under authority is the principle; not teaching is the application.
Paul is saying that the church should not recognize women as those having authority in the church regarding matters of doctrine and Scriptural interpretation.
Not all speaking or teaching by a woman is necessarily a violation of God’s order of authority in the church. Whatever speaking or teaching is done by a woman must be done in submission to the men God has appointed to lead the church.
1 Corinthians 11:1-12 emphasizes the same principle. Women are to always act under authority in the congregation, demonstrated in Corinthian culture by the wearing of a head covering. Therefore a woman in the Corinthian church could only pray or prophesy if she demonstrated that she was under the leadership of the church, and she demonstrated this by wearing a head covering and by acting consistently with that principle.
1 Corinthians 14:33-35 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace, as in all the meetings of God’s holy people.
Women should be silent during the church meetings. It is not proper for them to speak. They should be submissive, just as the law says. If they have any questions, they should ask their husbands at home, for it is improper for women to speak in church meetings.
The context of this passage, and much of 1 Corinthians, is the order and structure of the church. The Corinthian church was noted for the chaos and lack of order that was rampant in that assembly. It is interesting that no elders or pastors are mentioned, and the prophets were not even exercising control. Everyone was participating with whatever expression they desired “whenever” they desired. This included tongues and prophesying by women who were taking the lead in the services instead of being submissive, as God’s Word makes clear (1 Timothy 2:11-15). Apparently, certain women in the Corinthian church were out of order in disruptively asking questions publicly in the chaotic services. Women may be gifted teachers, but they are not permitted by God “to speak” in such a manner in His churches. In fact, for them to do so is “improper” or “shameful” as 1 Corinthians 11:35 tells us.
The strength of Paul’s wording here makes it challenging to obey this command in today’s society. Since the 1970’s, our culture has rejected the idea that there may be different roles for men and women in the home, in the professional world, or in the church. In this text (among others), the Holy Spirit clearly says there is a difference in roles.
But the cultural challenge must be seen in its true context - not just a struggle between men and women, but as a struggle with the issue of authority in general. Since the 1960’s, there has been a massive change in the way we see and accept authority.
Citizens do not have the same respect for government’s authority.
Students do not have the same respect for teacher’s authority.
Women do not have the same respect for men’s authority.
Children do not have the same respect for parental authority.
Employees do not have the same respect for their employer’s authority.
People do not have the same respect for the police’s authority.
Christians no longer have the same respect for church authority.
There are not many who would say that these changes have been good. Generally, people do not feel safer and there is less confidence in the culture. Television and other entertainment get worse and worse. In fact, our society is presently in, and rushing towards, complete anarchy - the state where no authority is accepted, and the only thing that matters is what one wants to do.
It is fair to describe our present moral state as one of anarchy. There is no moral authority in our culture. When it comes to morality, the only thing that matters is what one wants to do. And in a civil sense, many neighborhoods in our nation are given over to anarchy. The government’s authority is not accepted in gang-infested portions of our cities. The only thing that matters is what one wants to do.
We must see the broader attack on authority as a direct Satanic strategy to destroy our society and millions of individual lives. He is accomplishing this with two main attacks. First, the corruption of authority; second, the rejection of authority.
This idea of authority and submission to authority are so important to God that they are part of His very being. The First Person of the Holy Trinity is called the Father; the Second Person of the Holy Trinity is called the Son. Inherent in those titles is a relationship of authority and submission to authority. The Father exercises authority over the Son, and the Son submits to the Father’s authority - and this is in the very nature and being of God. Our failure to exercise Biblical authority, and our failure to submit to Biblical authority, isn’t just wrong and sad - it sins against the very nature of God.
Paul’s focus here is the public worship of the church. God has established a clear chain of authority in both the home and in the church, and in those spheres, God has ordained that men are the “head” - that is, that they have the place of authority and responsibility.
Our culture, having rejected the idea in a difference in role between men and women, now rejects the idea of any difference between men and women. The driving trends in our culture point towards men who are more like women, and women who are more like men. Styles, clothes, perfumes, and all the rest promote this thought.
The Bible is just as specific that there is no general submission of women unto men commanded in society; only in the spheres of the home and in the church. God has not commanded in His word that men have exclusive authority in the areas of politics, business, education, and so on.
It also does not mean that every woman in the church is under the authority of every man in the church. Instead it means that those who lead the church - pastors and ruling elders - must be men, and the women (and others) must respect their authority.
The failure of men to lead in the home and in the church, and to lead in the way Jesus would lead, has been a chief cause of the rejection of male authority - and is inexcusable.
Some feel this recognition and submission to authority is an unbearable burden. They feel that it means, “I have to say that I am inferior, that I am nothing, and I have to recognize this other person as being superior.” Yet inferiority or superiority has nothing to do with this. We remember the relationship between God the Father and God the Son - they are completely equal in their being, but have different roles when it comes to authority.
Some may say that the church cannot work (or cannot work well) unless we go along with the times and put women into positions of spiritual and doctrinal authority in the church. From the standpoint of what works in our culture, they may be right. Yet from the standpoint of pleasing God by doing what He says in His word, they are wrong.
Women can evangelize, talk to people about Christ, be a very crucial part of the Church, they simply cannot be pastors or be in a position of power within the church as commanded in His Word.
Another frequent objection to this interpretation of women in ministry is in relation to women who held positions of leadership in the Bible, specifically Miriam, Deborah, and Huldah in the Old Testament. This objection fails to note some significant factors. First, Deborah was the only female judge among 13 male judges. Huldah was the only female prophet among dozens of male prophets mentioned in the Bible. Miriam’s only connection to leadership was being the sister of Moses and Aaron. The two most prominent women in the times of the Kings were Athaliah and Jezebel—hardly examples of godly female leadership. Most significantly, though, the authority of women in the Old Testament is not relevant to the issue. The book of 1 Timothy and the other Pastoral Epistles present a new paradigm for the church—the body of Christ—and that paradigm involves the authority structure for the church, not for the nation of Israel or any other Old Testament entity.
Similar arguments are made using Priscilla and Phoebe in the New Testament. In Acts 18, Priscilla and Aquila are presented as faithful ministers for Christ. Priscilla’s name is mentioned first, perhaps indicating that she was more “prominent” in ministry than her husband. However, Priscilla is nowhere described as participating in a ministry activity that is in contradiction to 1 Timothy 2:11-14. Priscilla and Aquila brought Apollos into their home and they both discipled him, explaining the Word of God to him more accurately (Acts 18:26).
In Romans 16:1, even if Phoebe is considered a “deaconess” instead of a “servant,” that does not indicate that Phoebe was a teacher in the church. “Able to teach” is given as a qualification for elders, but not deacons (1 Timothy 3:1-13; Titus 1:6-9). Elders/bishops/deacons are described as the “husband of one wife,” “a man whose children believe,” and “men worthy of respect.” Clearly the indication is that these qualifications refer to men. In addition, in 1 Timothy 3:1-13 and Titus 1:6-9, masculine pronouns are used exclusively to refer to elders/bishops/deacons.
The structure of 1 Timothy 2:11-14 makes the “reason” perfectly clear. Verse 13 begins with “for” and gives the “cause” of Paul’s statement in verses 11-12. Why should women not teach or have authority over men? Because “Adam was created first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived.” God created Adam first and then created Eve to be a “helper” for Adam. This order of creation has universal application in the family (Ephesians 5:22-33) and the church. The fact that Eve was deceived is also given as a reason for women not serving as pastors or having spiritual authority over men. This leads some to believe that women should not teach because they are more easily deceived. That concept is debatable, but if women are more easily deceived, why should they be allowed to teach children (who are easily deceived) and other women (who are supposedly more easily deceived)? That is not what the text says. Women are not to teach men or have spiritual authority over men because Eve was deceived. As a result, God has given men the primary teaching authority in the church.
Many women excel in gifts of hospitality, mercy, teaching, evangelism, and so much more. Much of the ministry of the local church depends on women. Women in the church are not restricted from public praying or prophesying (1 Corinthians 11:5), only from having spiritual teaching authority over men. The Bible nowhere restricts women from exercising the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12). Women, just as much as men, are called to minister to others, to demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), and to proclaim the gospel to the lost (Matthew 28:18-20; Acts 1:8; 1 Peter 3:15).
Women can be evangelists, that’s never been an issue. They can be evangelists and speak at churches and out in the world spreading the Good News, they simply cannot teach men or be Pastors/Ministers. Anne Graham Lotz (Billy Graham’s daughter) is a perfect example of a woman as an evangelist.
God has ordained that only men are to serve in positions of Pastors in the church. This is not because men are necessarily better teachers, or because women are inferior or less intelligent (which is not the case). It is simply the way God designed the church to function. Men are to set the example in spiritual leadership—in their lives and through their words. Women are to take a less authoritative role. Women are encouraged to teach other women (Titus 2:3-5). The Bible also does not restrict women from teaching children. The only activity women are restricted from is teaching or having spiritual authority over adult men. This logically would preclude women from serving as pastors to men. This does not make women less important, by any means, but rather gives them a ministry focus more in agreement with God’s plan and His gifting of them.
The Lord is not now nor has He ever claimed to be “Politically Correct” He is God. The bible tells us in Job 40:2, “Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct Him? Let him who argues with God give an answer.”
We either respect God’s authority or we follow our hearts and go do what we think it’s right. Just remember that the Bible tells us not to lean on our understanding (Proverbs 3:5) and that our hearts are wicked (Jeremiah 17:9). Do not go picking and choosing which parts of the Bible you want to respect and live by.