AU where Arya’s homecoming is about Arya and not taking a chainsaw to 6 seasons of character development, 2 seasons of training, and anything resembling the book character to turn her into an antagonistic plot device in her own home for a cheap curve and to prop up other character’s storylines.
What endgame do you /want/ to see? Fluffy endgames for your favorite characters, what you think would be a fitting end to the story, whatever.
i mean i doubt the ending is going to be fluffy, but as far as realistic goes, i want:
sansa to have a role in ruling the north,
the starks to be reunited at least briefly,
littlefinger to die a horrible death,
asha to take theon back to the iron islands,
brienne to feel like she’s fulfilled her duty,
jon to find out about lyanna already jeez,
jon connington to find out that rhaegar’s son has his name,
arianne to help her people and prove herself worthy of rulling,
barristan to crown daenerys in whatever capacity even metaphorical,
arya and gendry to meet again,
jaime to die honorably
the list could go on forever
and as far as cracky goes:
jon goes to dorne gets a tan and learns to surf
arya returns and goes around westeros in search of gendry and hotpie “we’re getting the band back together!”
one of tommen’s cats has seven kittens and they become symbols of peace when he dispatches them around the seven kingdoms “kitten gift” becomes a common phrase that means gesture of good will and is also the title of a bawdy tavern song
doran and sansa co-write a best-seller titled “putting up with shit: a guide to weathering other people’s rude behavior”
gilly reads the books sam studies and founds the first women only university and missandei and shireen are the first teachers hired
stannis davos melisandre and selyse all move into the same flat and the neighbors talk
bran and margaery bond over botany
myrcella becomes a cyvasse world champion
tyrion and jorah open a b&b and snipe at each other over customers’ meals
dany starts a dragon sanctuary north of the wall
daario and arianne grow old and fat together and have the loudest party 20 year-olds have ever had at 70
loras moves into the same retirement home as jaime and karaoke night suddenly gets very aggressive
Do you have any theories about how ASoIaF will end? Like, who do you think will die and how, what will happen to Jon (seriously, I've read anything from "he's tots gonna marry Dany and they'll have kids and rule together forever" to "he'll die in a Heroic Sacrifice to Save Everyone" to "after all the shit he went through he's just gonna be like, 'fuck everything and everyone, Imma go wander beyond the Wall for the rest of my life!"), stuff like that?
HAHAHAHAHAHAH I JUST REPLIED TO SOMEONE IN PRIVATE OVER THAT I’m gonna c/p the jon and dany related parts and then add the rest, call me back in ten years to see if I’m right
SO, EXPLANATION OF THE MY EXTREMELY UNPOPULAR THEORY RE JON AND DANY:
- at the end of adwd dany’s back where she came from and hasn’t even met tyrion so everything that happened in the show BEFORE drogon flew her off should happen AFTER she’s back in mereen
- which puts her arriving in westeros WAY after the time she’s in the show now
- also the fact that in the book there’s aegon prancing around dragonstone along with jon connington and the likes suggests me that IF no one dies before she has to deal with them first while shit goes down in the north and possibly grayscale spreads and blah blah blah
also, jon has to come back to life and I’m betting moneyt it’s not as easy as in the show, grrm has to tie up the sansa plot and it’s gonna take a lot longer because sansa is not in the north currently so it’s gonna take ALL of wow for the starks to get back to winterfell IF they do get back to winterfell in wow and for people to find out jon was robb’s legitimate heir and so on
first conclusion: there’s no way jon and dany even meet before either the very end of wow or actually ados and by that time the zombies should be WAY too much of a menace for them to be worrying about bending the knee and shit
taken the first conclusion into account and that ados should be all about defeating the others with whoever has survived banding together and that the only surviving copy of robb’s will is currently with howland reed who is GOING to have to show up soon, r+l=j should be a known thing BEFORE jon and dany meet or anyway it’d happen soon after so I honestly don’t know if it’s likely that they’d hook up in canon or if it wouldn’t be MASSIVELY weird if they do, but anyway I could be wrong on that bc the text evidence for those two sort of hooking up is actually there even if I don’t particularly agree with it, but NEVER MIND
anyway at this point they’re obv gonna do away with the zombies which is gonna cause even more casualties and shit which is not gonna make anyone any happier, jon’s gonna have to pull his azor ahai stint because it’s him and whatever (AND HE SURVIVES IT), I’m 99% sure that in between all of this aegon and jonc AT LEAST are gonna die and it’s not going to be just them, anyway at the end they’re gonna be left with a post-apocalypse westeros where most of the people who wanted the throne out of I NEED TO HAVE IT BECAUSE POWER or I HAVE RIGHTS ON IT (ie stannis if he survives which I doubt) will have lost most of the interest/force of will
THIS STATED, unpopular jon theory: the thing about his storyline is that he’s going through all the typical secret chosen hero steps but every time anything happens it goes badly/it’s not what he wants (he loses his family, his first true love dies, he becomes LC and instead of going well he gets stabbed etc) and what did he want at the beginning of the books? to not be a bastard. where is he now? ops, your father was rhaegar targaryen and your mom was lyanna stark OOOOPS. which is *not* what he wanted, he wanted to be a *stark*. but furthermore, idk if it’s likely that R married lyanna before leaving her in the tower of joy or not, but if he did he’s actually legitimate and has the best claim since he’s male and legit son of the legit male heir, and who’s gonna want that job? no one. so who is going to have to take it? yeah, HIM. and he’s going to… dislike about every moment of it at least in the beginning (MORE ON THIS AFTER THE DANY PART)
now, on to dany: in that scenario they COULD get married and united the dynasties again, but… they’d know about the incest part of it and idk if he’d go for it, but honestly, the thing with dany is also that she started wanting to go to westeros, and what’s most actually ironic/backwards if she finds out that after the zombies, meereen and basically getting shit all the way through she actually doesn’t even *want* it? I mean the thing is, dany imo (in the books) seemed more at ease/happiest/filling out a role she seemed cut for when she was a *khaleesi*, not when she was ruling, and for a khaleesi she was a++++ because she was very forward thinking, did away with most of the worse stuff in her khalasar and was actually doing some seriously nice enlightened sort of revolution differently from how it went in mereen, so like… my eventual endgame theory is that she goes back to essos to actually be the enlightened full-time khaleesi that essos deserves and making good use of what she learned while jon picks the pieces up in westeros and comes to term with being the only fantasy hero in existence who didn’t want to be king at all and ended up there anyway and has to make it work
ALSO: my pet sorta wishful thinking theory re jon is that given that westeros will be a post-apocalypse mess in shambles with most previously powerful lords being either dead or done for and with a complete new system and in which most people will have been through too many wars, zombies and so on to give a fuck, jon could actually rule as *jon snow* rather than jon targaryen or stark (which imo is the name he’d take for himself if he had to choose) without getting married and continuing the dynasty and then after he dies after fixing what he could and putting things on the right way, the seven kingdoms secede, the throne gets destroyed (if jon doesn’t do it before) and they go back to being independent. like, I’m very much aware that it’s not very likely but idk IT MAKES SENSE TO ME THEMATICALLY OKAY? *shrug*
other characters and the likes:
people who are absolutely toast: cersei, the boltons, euron/victarion, lady stoneheart, the elder clegane and someone in dany’s retinue are goners, same as (SADLY FOR ME) aegon/jonc. jonc is definitely dying of grayscale unless what happens in the show with sam and jorah happens to him but I highly doubt that, aegon’s dying while going against the others or anyway after they all join up with dany and then someone else (possibly tyrion since grrm said that not all of the heads of the dragon have to be targ) takes his place. anyway, both goners. very sadly for me. tommen is also a dead man walking, either how it happened in the show or some other way but nope. myrcella might be but I’d like to think being in dorne and grrm not wanting to kill everybody in dorne because BUDGET might be her ticket to salvation, but I’m on the fence. hodor is also sadly dying most probably because the way they did in the show was too clever and well-done to be out of d&d’s imagination. at this point shireen is also most probably dying tho NOT HOW IT HAPPENED IN THE SHOW DAMN IT. stoneheart is dying because brienne kills her to save jaime and she becomes her aerys THIS IS MY PET THEORY OF THEORIES GRRM WILL HAVE TO PRY IT AWAY FROM ME. lf is definitely dying either thrown out of the moon door or some other way but he’s toast. also most freys are 100% toast.
people I’m definitely on the fence about: stannis - I’m sort of thinking he might die but I’m not 100% sure and anyway if he does it won’t be like in the bloody show, jaime (I thought he was kinda headed for the heroic death in the beginning but now I’m starting to think he has some chances of pulling through I really hope he does tbh), meera, the decent people at the wall (I mean some are gonna die when the zombies inevitably pass but I hope they don’t), jorah (not enough elements to decide sorry), blackfish & jeyne poole (same as above), sand snakes.
meanwhile, main people I’m definitely sure are living + their endgames for the ones I have endgames for:
the living starks are staying alive. sansa eventually ends up as rickon’s regent and bran is going to have some luke skywalker moment where he has to decide if he wants to go darkside or not and then obviously decides not to, but eventually renounces being the three-eyed raven the way the previous one had and rejoins the living. arya stays in WF or goes with jon to KL when he inevitably does - could be in his kingsguard or she can stay in WF and help sansa out. (on the fence re gendr/ya happening - might be, might not.) sandor ends up as sansa’s sworn shield at least.
brienne definitely makes out of it alive after fighting the white walkers at the wall with everyone else who had managed to get there. if jaime hasn’t died in front of her while fighting the white walkers (if he dies that’s how I see him going, and anyway they totally will have hooked up before I 100% believe that) they’re going back to tarth together, if not she goes there alone and proceeds to be the awesome person she is. (I said bitter*sweet* before right? I think she has a good shot at the sweet part.)
arianne gets her throne in dorne ofc
tyrion gets casterly rock while tywin rolls in his grave because I doubt he’d go to essos with dany AS PER MY HEADCANON BEFORE
sam gets his maester’s chain but eventually goes on to be jon’s right hand wherever jon ends up (I think in KL so XD hey THE CURRENT ARCHMAESTER IS DEAD)
if margaery survives (before the show I’d have bet on it, now I’m not so sure) she’s ending up in a way more demoted position than she is rn but anyway some tyrell’s gonna live - I don’t think loras might be one tho
davos is definitely surviving - if he doesn’t end up tied with anyone same as he’s in the show (I mean if he REALLY became jon’s hand of the king I’d die of happiness but idk how likely it is) - he’s coming back home a-la sam in lotr, like ‘hey marya I’m home’
theon and asha are definitely not dying. asha is eventually ruling the iron islands somewhat. about theon I’m not sure because I don’t have enough elements to decide if he’s going back to the islands (doubtful) or staying north (maybe) but anyway theon’s surviving that shit. he didn’t have the mother of all abuse survivor recovery storylines to die just when he can get to live without anyone breathing down his neck and trying to force his alliances. like I’m 100% sure theon doesn’t die it’s the one thing I’d bet actual money on after canon jb lol
varys is probably gonna live because he’s too smart not to
edmure is surviving and getting riverrun but he and roslin prob won’t separate so he also gets the twins or something along that line of thinking
I’m sure I prob. forgot someone but that’s the main lines of it I think XD let’s see how wrong am I if these books actually see the light of day
btw this is all based on book canon, on the show I have no fucking clue anymore #rip
Seeing the Jaime gif w/ Aerys&Daenerys and people burning really reminds me of this Sandor Clegane quote "The septons preach about the seven hells. What do they know? Only a man who's been burned knows what hell is truly like"
God that scene was ~so intense~ right!? And it’s kind of like…
Ok, *disclaimer* before people go all ~Dany Defense Squad~ on me: I do NOT think the specifically relevant parallel here is between Dany and Aerys. The relevant parallel is about Jaime and his perceptions of and reactions to the situations.
Father used to watch us from up here. […] One time the boys were shooting arrows with Ser Rodrik. I came out here after and Bran had left his bow behind, just lying on the ground. Ser Rodrik would have cuffed him if he saw. There was one arrow in the target. No one around, just like now. No one to stop me.
So I started shooting. And every shot I had to go up there and get my one arrow and walk back and shoot it again. I wasn’t very good. Finally, I’ve hit the bullseye. Could’ve been the 20th shot. Or the 50th, I don’t remember. But I hit the bullseye. And I heard this. [Clapping]
I looked up. And he was standing right here, smiling at me. I knew what I was doing was against the rules but he was smiling, so I knew it wasn’t wrong.
I think I am the only person who is nervous that the Jonsa scenes in Dragonstone could be laying the foundation for Starkbowl? I wasn’t worried about any of the spoilers and teasers, but after that episode I am. It seemed like they spent the entire episode bickering with each other. Sansa undermined Jon in front of all their banner men and compared him to Joffrey and Jon in not so many words told Sansa he doesn’t really listen to her. I’m anxious, this doesn’t feel like a good start.
You brought up a few things in your ask relating to different scenes and interactions, so I am going to try to ~unpack it~ in kind of chronological order. And hopefully in a way that will make sense…
I do agree that there was generally an underlying tension in Jon and Sansa’s interactions through out the episode. But I don’t think the tension is ALL necessarily coming from Jon and Sansa themselves. And I also think it made sense given the timing of the episode. We are literally picking up right where the s6 finale left off basically, so Winterfell has just been reclaimed and Jon has just been named King. There isn’t a lot of stability yet.
Not only that, but for the first time Jon and Sansa’s focuses are kind of diverging. In s6 they were both focused on getting Winterfell back from the Boltons, they had that unity and that common goal. Now they are both looking in different directions and to different enemies. That much is evident not only in their disagreement over how to deal with the Karstarks and Umbers (which I will save for under the cut), but in their conversation on Winterfell’s Battlements. Jon is worried about the White Walkers and how to beat them. Sansa is worried about Cersei Lannister and the southern forces. And neither of them are wrong in worrying about their respective concerns. Jon has seen the Night’s King, he knows what threat it poses better than Sansa. And Sansa has experience with Cersei that Jon doesn’t. She knows how the Lannisters feel about the surviving Starks and the North in general, she knows Jon’s refusal to bend the knee is going to enrage Cersei even further. They are both understandably and rightfully frustrated that the other doesn’t seem to be taking their concerns as seriously as they should.
Basically, it’s a little hectic. There’s a lot going on, no one has gotten to nap yet, and things get lost in translation.
We had this meeting with George Martin where we were trying to get as much information as possible out of him, and probably the most shocking revelation he had for us was when he told us the origin of Hodor and how the name came about. I just remember Dan and I looking at each other when he said that and being like, ‘Holy shit.’ It was just one of the saddest and most affecting things, even sitting in a hotel room and having somebody tell you that this was going to happen in the abstract in some way, and that 'Hold the door’ was the origin of the name 'Hodor’. We just thought that was a really heartbreaking idea.
Hello my dear! I don't know about you but when Jon said "my father always said, the man who passed the sentence should swing the sword" made me remember of Janos Slynt. And I REALLY want Sansa to know that Jon beheaded Slynt and after seeing that awful poop montage I have hope that we might see it, but then again, Jon may go to Dragonstone and Sansa will never know. Do you think there could be a possibility? Or nah?
I am not entirely sure honestly. (Yes I realize it is annoying af that I took so long to answer you and then gave you a non answer lol. I am SO SORRY! I am The Worst.)
If it does happen in the show I will be OVER THE MOON! But idk if it would have the same significance that it does in the books tbh? Part of what makes the Janos Slynt connection so cool in the books, at least for me, is the juxtaposition of the two quotes from Sansa and Jon’s respective POVs:
Heads of Houses killed by their own weapons. Neat, right?
I was watching the Tyrion-Tywin scene in S04E10 “The Children” and kept wondering: We have Dance and Dinklage here deciding whether to kill each other, and I want to see their faces, and the editor keeps giving us shots of the lion’s head decorating the crossbow weapon.
So, okay, the filmmakers have something to say about the weapon. Perhaps, Isn’t it tragic how these heads of houses keep getting killed by their own weaponry?
It’s a good use of the visual medium to convey certain themes of the story, one can say, and not be entirely wrong. The crossbow, it’s a beautiful prop. It was Joffrey’s, right? The one he pointed at Sansa and Daisy? And at Ros, poor Ros? The weapon motif, it was set up in cold open of the season when Tywin melted down Ice. And now we’re seeing the crossbow from Tywin’s POV, that golden lion snarling at him. And the theme that the tools of violence are inevitably turned on their purported masters, it’s resonant and appropriate to the source material and all of that.
And if you agree and like that point, stop here, because I’m going to flip this again.
But I’m burnt, not because it’s a change, but because the way that Sansa’s castle makes her feel about Winterfell is important for setting up all of the rest of her story. It is a key moment in her arc, it could have been realized in wondrous detail with the GoT’s design team and cinematographers, but D&D used it as just a transition to get to the SweetRobin-slapping and the squicky Petyr-kissing.
And we know that they know how to use scenery and props to convey story because of how they use shots of weapons. Joffrey, in particular, wielded several different weapons with great dramatic effect. We remember Sansa facing down his crossbow, kissing Hearteater; Margaery incorporating the crossbow into foreplay; Ros and Daisy, and Ros again, alas; naming Widow’s Wail and using it to hack a book to pieces. We know a lot about what those weapons look like. And we know what they mean to Joffrey. And we know what Needle means to Arya, and what Oathkeeper means to Brienne. Do show-watchers know that Sansa’s biggest coming of age moment has nothing to do with a feathered dress?
If you’re with me so far, let’s go one more step:
In GRRM’s ASOIAF, weapons don’t kill people. People kill people, for the terrible reasons that people do terrible things. Magic swords are tokens in the Game, not players. But in HBO’s GoT, weapons are beginning to take on their own motive force, propelling the narrative with their own irony. Tywin focuses, not with the warrior’s clarity on the point of the crossbow bolt that will imbed itself in his gut, but in the patriarch’s moment of come-uppance on his own house’s sigil. That crossbow with the lion on it, it was fated to kill Tywin, the camera tells us, just as Ice was fated to kill Ned.
(Consider whether this is one reason Tysha was dropped from the privy scene, because the crossbow had sufficient motive of its own to make up for Tyrion’s lost anger about her.)
So I’m sorry, but D&D are wrong if they think that Weapons of Fate are true to the source material. The books are about choices that people make, and why they make them, not about homing weapons magically removing Great House patriarchs. Who would want to watch that?
Then proceeded to fuck up the Trio’s, Snape’s, Neville’s and Malfoy’s character arcs…
…so they could crowbar in as much Fenrir Greyback as possible - so lots of cannibalism and child killing and werewolf-making and rapey approaches to female victims - and build him up to be almost a bigger threat than Voldemort.
That’s what D&D have done to ASOIAF with Ramsay Bolton.
I'm not saying that Sansa should have got a huge sword and then mightily sung it at Littlefinger's head But, she could've easily got a knife and cut his throat. Lord knows Arya isn't some big woman who could do it either, yet she was still reduced to an executer, and it rubs me the wrong way that people are quick to jump into Sansa's defense. Arya is also a young girl, and a nobleborn lady, same as Sansa, why is she so different? Why where she and Bran only used at the end for that awful scene?
Ok anon well here’s my question for you: why would Sansa carry out the execution? (To quote my dear @him-e in her excellent answer to this exact question: “Why, so y’all could complain she was given Arya’s traits and skills?”)
Honestly though, why?? Why would Sansa, who has never wielded a weapon against another character in the entirety of the series, take it upon herself to carry out the execution when her sister, who she knows is extremely skilled in the areas of combat, is more than ready and willing to do so?! I am not saying Sansa couldn’t have found some way to do it, I am just asking why on earth would she?? Narratively and logically, that just doesn’t make much sense.
I'm not sure that the Undercover Lover Jon thing is true, even though I get why people believe it. If it isn't true tho, what is the third treason that Dany's going to suffer? I thought it was pretty much agreed that it was going to be Jon.
Hokay I know I said I wasn’t going to talk about this, but I am nothing if nothing contrary af. SO anon I am going to use your ask as a kind of like ~general layout~ of my thoughts on the potential of UCJ. I’m going to maintain though that I would prefer not to discuss any potential consent issues for personal reasons.
SO all right folks *drum roll* It’s the new favorite fandom Disc Horse! Either you love it or you hate it! Either you want to have its babies or want to kill it with fire!… It’s THE UNDERCOVER JON THEORY!
Before I start rambling, you should all totally check out the bottom part of this really excellent post by @him-e about some of the details and possibilities of this theory, because Claudia is so much better at words and explanations and life than me. There’s also this post by @blindestspot, whose no nonsense approach I always really appreciate.
Ok, first of all: I would like to go on record once more in saying that God I really dislike the name Undercover Jon. I primarily hate it because I feel like it’s misleading, at least in terms of what I personally would consider this theory to be. I feel like “undercover” implies deliberateness and ill intent and malice aforethought that I generally don’t really think is involved here. Also, I guess I don’t really subscribe to the Undercover Lover theory at all, because I don’t think Jon’s feelings for/sexual relationship with Dany have anything to do with it (i.e. I do not think Jon purposefully and deliberately seduced Dany for the sole purpose of manipulating her, nor do I think he is merely pretending to have feelings for her for the sole purpose of personal/political gain).
I truly don’t believe Jon is in any way maliciously gaslighting Dany as part of any Grand Scheme. Personally, I feel that would be too much at odds with the Honorable and Noble character and narrative established for Jon. But that’s not to say that I don’t think the general theory is totally with out merit. I actually think some elements of it could definitely make up a potential plot line. I have explained my take on it as more Flying By the Seat of His Pants Jon- I think “scheme” would be way too strong a word, I think “plan” would probably even be too generous. It’s probably more along the lines of “ok so this is what we are doing now.”
how do you think a jon and sansa endgame would end up being if it happened? i saw something saying that it seems like people don't think about what the side effects of them getting together would be long term and i am wondering what you think?
Oh man haha, this is such a LOADED question honestly. Because I feel like it all kind of depends on the context of both the tone of the post, and whether it was referring to the books or the show or both.
As far as responding to the post… Since I don’t know what it is or what it said or the tone of it, I can really only kind of attempt to guess and then base my responses on my guesses?
If the post was saying like “no one thinks about what would happen if they got together because no one thinks about them getting together/no one thinks they will get together” then I mean, I can only speak for myself, but I can certainly tell you it’s not true because I think about it ALL THE TIME. I probably spend faaarrr more time than I should thinking about Jon and Sansa getting together lol. I have actually always thought that Jon and Sansa had good canon potential, it’s one of the thing that drew me to the ship in the first place. They are both characters I care about and want good things for, and I think they would be both good to each other and good for each other. To me, that’s part of the appeal. I wasn’t always vocal about it yeah, but that was more due to a lack of having anyone to talk to (aka screech and flail at) about the particular possibility of them getting together until like a year ago than anything else. I mean, canon isn’t by any means a necessary part of shipping, but I do think it’s pretty normal to a certain extent (said extent NOT including shipping wank and wars and anon hate and telling people to kys and all that ridiculous bs). I feel like wanting to get to see your ship make out on screen/in print is a pretty common occurrence and I don’t get discounting or dismissing or ~poo-pooing~ it really, if that’s the direction the post was going in. It goes both ways too, people are just as free to think that canon doesn’t support a ship as they are to think it does. Canon and speculation and the like are just as much a part of shipping for some people as fanfic and fan art, they can put just as much time and effort and dedication into meta, speculation, ect. ect. as fanwork. And tbh I really don’t see anything wrong with that in general. To me it’s fun- I like thinking and speculating about what might happen. Like so many things in life, I am usually The Worst at it, but I love it all the same.