ITF meta


I think this moment in the scene is overlooked because it’s rather subtle.

When they walk up to the GP Surgery, Simon is well behind Kieren, letting him lead their way (as will become typical).

Upon entering, Simon is looking at Kieren (first pic) for cues.

When Dr. Russo calls Kieren’s name, Simon’s attention switches to Dr. Russo and his expression hardens (second pic). Whatever Kieren thinks of this situation, Simon distrusts medical personnel (and with good reason, considering his horrific experiences with them, ESPECIALLY the ones involved with the care of PDS patients).

Simon’s reaction to Dr. Russo approaching Kieren is to move from behind Kieren to in front of Kieren, and stop moving (third pic, though it’s easier to see when they are in motion).

He doesn’t place his body between Kieren and Russo, he’s not blocking anyone from interacting or stopping Kieren from doing anything he wants to do… but he HAS placed himself in such a manner that Russo has to keep his distance from Kieren or else be weirdly in Simon’s personal space. Simon has also placed himself into a position to defend Kieren in an instant if needed, and his gaze is placed off to the side of Russo in such a way that suggests Russo doesn’t need to worry about him because he isn’t even paying attention to Russo. In fact, the rest of his body language suggests his mind’s attention is 100% on Russo.

I love, lovelovelove, this facet of Simon. He trusts Kieren to take care of himself, doesn’t restrict him from doing anything he wants to do, but Simon places himself in a position to step in if he’s needed. 


The more and more I watch this, the more and more I love Kieren. We’ve seen him move from someone who can’t even bear to look himself in the mirror without hiding himself, to someone who finally accepts who he is. What’s even better, and what I like most about Kieren, is that he didn’t do it for Simon.

Sure, Simon planted the idea in his mind. Take off your makeup, be who you really are, don’t cover up. But in the events preceding this scene, it’s Kieren who gets fed up with having to pretend, with having to hide himself for the comfort of others. It’s Kieren who recognizes the bullshit going on, and Simon doesn’t say a thing at the family dinner.

Kieren gives a glance to Simon, as if to say, “You were right all along,” but ultimately his glance shifts back to himself, because this decision is for Kieren, by Kieren, and totally about Kieren. This. This is why Kieren is my favorite character, possibly ever.

You know what would be great, though?

If people sympathized with Maxine and called her misunderstood and woobified her.

You know, like other antagonists.

She’s not a poorly written stereotypical character.

Is the problem really that a black woman was cast as an antagonist with a tragic past (as if fandom doesn’t LOVE this type of character), or is it that fans don’t treat her the way they would if an attractive white male actor got the role?

I’ve been thinking a lot about why the fandom is so much more vocal about Gary hate than they are about, say, Bill Macy, who is imo the most despicable character in the series. 

Apart from the obvious “this fandom doesn’t care enough about Rick Macy” angle, I think it’s because Gary is the less frightening of the two. 

Think about it, what does Gary actually get done? Pretty much nothing. His attack on Amy in S1 is horrible but Amy picks herself up and carries on because she knows she’s better than him; his foul language in the pub backfires spectacularly when he ends up being choked by Simon; as close a call as the Blue Oblivion incident is, Kieren overcomes it. 

At the end of the day, our heroes are stronger than Gary. 

Bill, on the other hand, Bill is destructive. He might not achieve his ultimate goal of goading Kieren into a second suicide, but that doesn’t make the murder of his own son any less horrific. 

Kieren is the only survivor, but he certainly hasn’t won. 

So with Gary, unlike with Bill, we feel safe making joke posts about how much we hate him. We can bring it up all the time because we don’t have to think about the consequences of his actions because really… there aren’t many. But we can’t do the same with Bill because when we think about why we hate him we also have to think about what he did, and no-one really wants to think about that. 

anonymous asked:

"A part of me wishes I liked Rick more" OMG you're the only one I know who actually feels that way, too! And I can't actually explain *why* I feel that way; his situation is horrible and *very* realistic, his story was superbly well done and I can perfectly understand his motivations but I'm still kind of uncomfortable with him?

Well, I know you and I aren’t alone, because I’ve had this conversation several times in private. I wasn’t entirely honest when I said I had no idea why I felt that way about him, because I do know, and it’s because he’s violent, and he treated Kieren badly.

When he finds out Kieren is dead, his first gut reaction is to shoot the hell out of that target. When he talks to Kieren about why Kieren is undead, he flies into this short, violent rage where he beats on the dashboard of the car- and judging by the way Kieren assumes the slightly-hunched “just wait until it’s over” posture when that occurs, this isn’t the first time Rick’s reacted like that to something. I hate that. I just hate it, right down to the very core of my being, I hate that reaction and I’m 100% glad Kieren is nowhere near it anymore, especially as it was coming from someone he loved and should have been able to trust to be peaceful around him. I hate thinking about how things might have gone if Rick had lived; I hate thinking that this sort of unreasonable rage might have ever, ever been turned on Kieren someday, but I do think that, and I am incredibly over protective of Kieren Walker.

At the pub, when Gary makes jokes directed at Kieren that are meant to be degrading, Rick just fucking laughs along with them. He doesn’t stand up for Kieren even though he could have. One “cut it out, Gary.” would have been enough to shoot Gary, who is still uncertain about where he is supposed to stand with Bill and Rick right now, down and keep him from teasing Kieren. But no. Rick laughs, and there’s no surprise on Kieren’s face when he does so, which tells me that’s typical.

And I’m sorry, I don’t care how bad of a situation he was in with his father, leaving without telling Kieren he was going, when he had to have known for weeks, is unacceptable to me. He flat-out made a decision about what Kieren could and could not handle, what Kieren did or did not feel, without ever asking. That was both selfish and wrong of him to do. Yeah, that conversation sucks, having to tell someone bad news sucks, I get it, but you fucking do it if you care about them. You don’t abandon them without a word and you definitely don’t do it “for their own good,” which is basically what Rick’s shitty excuse amounted to.

And I get it, I do- I get that he came from a bad situation (a terrible situation, one I would never wish upon anyone), was raised in a bad situation. I get that his father was shitty (unimaginably shitty, and I hate Bill the most out of everyone on the show), and he was scared of his father and conflicted about what to do, and raised to believe things that were shitty, and I feel bad for that, I do.

But there’s a difference between having an understandable past and trying to excuse your current shitty behavior. Yes, I understand his past and feel bad that those things happened to him. No, I do not think it excuses some of his behavior.

At the end of s2 ep4, its pretty much confirmed by Dom Mitchell that Simon was Kieren’s first kiss. This means that throughout the teenage years of secretly loving each other, Rick and Kieren didnt really kiss because of the danger that they might be found out and sheer teenage awkwardness and their own combined anxiety. 

How often, do you reckon, Kieren wanted to kiss Rick like how he kissed Simon that night. Imagine tiny fourteen year old Ren hearing about what Bill had almost done when he discovered the mix CD. Rick would’ve been so frightened, so needing of that reassurance, but but Kieren knows really that it would only make things worse. 

Slightly taller sixteen year old Kieren smiling as Rick boasts to the rest of the lads about how he got into so-and-so’s knickers and Kieren knows its not really true, because he was with him in the den that night. Then hearing the girls going on about how good Rick is and giggling behind their hands. His heart just breaks, because of course. Rick had to leave at nine. Plenty of time for a date and a shag or whatever. 

Imagine eighteen year old Kieren almost kissing Rick the night before he gets sent to basic, but he just… Doesn’t. Theyre alone. They could. But the times not right so he doesn’t. He would’ve thought that there was always tomorrow, but tomorrow never came. 

And Rick, oh dear, how from when he was old enough to think did he want to love his Ren. Did love his Ren. Wanted to kiss him half the hours in the day, and spend the other half holding his hand or stroking his hair or cuddling. Rick, no matter what age, wanting to hold Kierens hand during school, but couldn’t out of risk of people seeing and telling his dad. Wanted to smooth his cheeks and kiss his forehead when Kieren’s anxiety got bad or his seasonal depression rolled around. 

Imagine Rick fantasising for hours about a day that maybe him and his Ren would be able to kiss and stay close, without the threat of his dads fists in the back of his mind. Imagine the immense urges he got to grab Kieren and kiss him when he’s being particularly adorable or passionate about something and his wide sparkling eyes and flushed skin from getting so excited over what (in Ricks perspective) is just a pretty picture. He’d only ever say that aloud to his dad though, because nothing that made Ren that happy was ‘just’ anything. 

 Of course, Rick would just beat himself up over these thoughts of course, because his dad was there with harsh shouts and fists and expectations of masculinity. Rick suppressing this incredible love for Kieren and it tearing him up inside because its wrong. No matter what. Its sick and disgusting and he’ll go to hell for being a fairy - all explained in loud shouting from his dad, with Rick himself nodding and trying not to whimper. 

These two being so afraid of their situation and wanting and needing much more than their timid friendship with each other without ever getting it is tragic. They never kissed. They never got to show their love for each other. Kieren never got to show how much he truly needed Rick and Rick never got to show Kieren how much he honestly cared, despite everything.

anonymous asked:

You know what I love about ITF (besides everything)? How there's no sexualisation at all. Of the two (I believe?) times we see Amy in a bra, once is when she shows Kieren her scars (so not a sexy situation at all), and once is after her night with Philip, where she's just sitting there (as female people do) without any zooming in or emphasis on her nakedness. Even Kieren and Simon have their backs turned to the viewer when changing. I can't even begin to tell you how refreshing I find that.

Oh God, yes. I hadn’t really thought about that until now but you’re totally and completely right.

Despite the romance and intimacy and the actual sex between characters like Amy and Philip, there’s no sexualization at all. Not of the female characters and not of the male characters; no gratuitous nudity shots, etc.

It’s pretty amazing and is absolute proof that you can have half-naked people in your television show or movie without it being super sexualized.

God bless In The Flesh and its makers. ;_; There are so many perfect things about this show, I just dunno what to say about it.

Predicition: Connie Furness is the first risen

Reasons why I believe it:

  • Sandra was not willing to share the night of the rising. Something happened. Something important. 
  • Connie is the most prominent tertiary character, always visible on the periphery but never with clear focus. Nonetheless, the audience knows her, without actually knowing much about her.
  • No backstory is given. No one is even asking her. 
  • Connie lives in the same house as Maxime. Maybe Connie is aware of her intentions, so she is hiding very cleverly in plain sight.
  • She seems to be the oldest zombie in Roarten. Might be a reason. 
  • Connie is absent from both the ULA and Maxime. 

Finally, it would be a great surprise for the audience, as everyone is expecting Kieren which I still believe is a red herring. 

Welcome to the master list of links to my In the Flesh meta. I’ll try to keep it updated but if I’ve missed something or a link doesn’t work, feel free to let me know. Additionally, if there’s something you would like to see discussed, my askbox and submit are always open.

Please note that everything here is my opinion and thoughts only. It’s 100% okay to disagree. I encourage you to have your own thoughts and open discussion about any and all of these topics.

Meta I’ve Written

Is In the Flesh a show I should invest in?” (Spoiler: the answer is yes)

Kieren Walker

On Kieren” (ITF Appreciation Week Entry Day 1)

Why did Kieren decide to stop wearing cover-up/contacts?

Kieren talking about wanting to have been cremated” (ITF Appreciation Week Entry Day 7)

On Kieren asking Simon where he went

How would Kieren react to knowing Amy was his feral hunting partner?

Why did the scene where Kieren attacks Gary get cut?

On Kieren taking Blue Oblivion

On Kieren’s sexuality

Simon Monroe

On Simon’s character

On Simon at the Walker lunch(Related Tags)(Related Ask)(Related Ask/Meta)
On Simon at the Walker Lunch (part 2)

On Simon having/not having feeling in his fingertips

On Simon going home after rising as a rabid + The Feral Undead

On Simon leading Amy on

How will Simon acquire neurotriptyline now that his ties to the ULA are severed?“ (submission by allthoselostsocks + response)(Related Ask)

Simon and childhood depression

Will Simon be worried about relapse into depression/destructive behaviors as he rehumanizes/becomes a “normal” human?

What happens if the Living take blue oblivion? Re: Simon’s depression returning“ (Related Ask)(Related Meta/Response)

Will Simon stay at Amy’s post series 2?“ (Related Ask)(Related Meta - re: Julian waiting at the bungalow for Simon in script)

Response to Simon’s manipulation techniques with Amy/Kieren

Will Simon’s father return in series 3?“ (Related Ask)


What I like about Kieren and Simon together“ (spoiler: it’s everything)

What are the flaws in Kieren and Simon’s relationship?
What are the flaws in Kieren and Simon’s relationship? (part 2)

Is Simon in love with Kieren (and vice versa) at the end of S2?

On Simon wearing cover up for Kieren“ (ITF Appreciation Week Entry Day 2)

Is Simon putting pressure on Kieren to save him?“ (earlier related ask)(later related reply)

Will Simon tell Kieren what his mission was?
Will Simon tell Kieren what his mission was (part 2)

Do Kieren’s parents know Simon is part of the ULA?

On Kieren requesting help from Simon to leave Roarton

On where Kieren and Simon’s relationship is headed
Where do you WANT to see Kieren and Simon’s relationship go?

Will Kieren ever leave Simon [how will their relationship change])
Will Kieren leave Simon to handle the ULA backlash alone?

How old is Simon and how does it impact his relationship with Kieren?” - (with added commentary from greenbergsays)(also the answer is Simon is 27 according to a graphic BBC3 released via Twitter)(related ask - redeemed-from-the-earth

How the Kieren/Simon relationship affects Kieren” (Related Ask)

Will Kieren move in with Simon + Consequences of Simon’s betrayal

How will Simon feel about Kieren not being The First Risen?

What happened the night Kieren kissed Simon the first time?

On the way Simon positions himself to protect Kieren at the GP surgery

Was Simon manipulating Kieren?

Why didn’t Simon intervene when he saw Gary kidnapping Kieren?

Did Simon change his mind about killing Kieren because Gary stopped him?

Kieren/Simon - who is the top and who is the bottom?” (spoiler: the answer is yes)

Kieren/Simon - who is more affected by jealousy?” (spoiler: they aren’t)

What Simon does with the bullet

Amy Dyer

Was Amy the First Risen?” (Related Ask)(Related Ask - Re: Simon’s perception)

On the music at Amy’s funeral” (ITF Appreciation Week Entry Day 6)

On Amy and Neurotriptyline” (Related Reply - Re: Amy as First Risen)

Why does Amy have bruising/injuries on her belly?

What would Kieren have told Amy about him and Simon?

Amy and Philip

On Amy and Philip’s storylines in S2

Oh Philip admitting he likes Amy” (ITF Appreciation Week Entry Day 5)

The Walkers

On Jem” (ITF Appreciation Week Entry Day 3)

On Jem and Kieren
On Jem and Kieren (part 2)
On Jem and Kieren (part 3)” (ITF Appreciation Week Entry Day 4)

On the Walker family in series 2
On the Walker family in series 2 (part 2)

Why did Sue and Steve name their children Jemima and Kieren?

On the awkward pause after Simon asked how Sue and Steve met” (Related Ask)

Rick | Rick/Kieren

Why I do not like/am uncomfortable about Rick” (Response by fiveyearmission)

On Kieren and Rick never kissing”(Related Ask)(Related Ask)(Related Ask [+Siren])(Related Ask)
On Kieren and Rick never kissing (part 2: Kieren’s first kiss is Simon?)” (Related Ask/Meta - re: Simon’s first serious relationship)(Related Ask)

On Rick returning | On Siren

Kieren in the truck with Rick” (reblog response)

Who wrote ‘Ren + Rick 4ever’ on the cave wall?

If Rick had lived, would Gary be different?

Minor Characters

On Maxine Martin
On Maxine Martin (part 2)” (Addition by bluspero (missing account))

On Dr. Russo

Let’s talk about Gary Kendal

Let’s talk about Shirley Wilson

Let’s talk about Charlotte

Why did Maxine say 'You are the first and the last’ to Amy?” (reblogged response +did Maxine know Amy was Living again)


If the undead are in danger of becoming rabid and thus actually dangerous, does it negate the message of treating the minority groups the PDS suffers represent well?” (Addition by greenbergsays)

Diversity/minorities on In the Flesh

On names

Shirley’s gloves

Where are the local police? Why are the HVF/RPS policing the town?

Cross-Fandom Meta

Cross-show discussion and why to have it

We Aren’t Replacing Sterek; We’re Leaving a Shitty Show for a Better One: the novel

Undead Boner Discussion (and other undead biology)

Can undead with penises have erections?” - the beginning
Response by kittyisnotahappybunny (Related [to response] Ask)(Related Ask)

Biology of the Undead + The Rising Results

Were there males at the undead brothel?

On Amy and Philip having sex

Are the undead unfeeling?
Are the undead unfeeling (part 2)”(Related Ask re: sedation of rabids)(Related Ask - re: taste/smell)

On the biology of the feral undead re:Simon going home/Kieren recognizing Jem

Do the undead need to breathe?

Can the undead cry?

Why does undead eye appearance vary?

On the ages of characters and undead aging

If the undead become living, will they retain their injuries/cause of death?” (Related Ask)(Related Ask)(Related Ask)(Related Ask)(Related Ask - re: Simon’s back wound)(Related Ask - re: Mental States)

Will PDS children develop mentally or remain the same age?” (Related Reply)

On Kieren’s walk” (Related Ask - re: Rigor Mortis)(Related Interview with Luke Newberry)

(Related Ask)(Related Ask)(Related Ask)(Related Ask - Re: The solution)

Tags Meta/Headcanon

Simon at the Legion

Simon awaiting the Prophet’s private message to him

Simon staying

Simon’s face at Amy’s wake

Kieren realizing his father is scared of him

Gary and Kieren in the future

Praise for In the Flesh and its characters

Timeline bullshit I’m still sorting out

Meta I Like Written By Others

Should I watch In The Flesh? - by ChucknRaleigh

On Rick’s military uniform/decorations meanings - by theundeadsiren

Interview Masterlist - by theundeadsiren (It’s not meta, but if you want “behind the scenes” information, this is a great place to look. I linked to the reblog on my own blog, since I know I won’t take it down or change URL, but here is the [Original Post] link as well, hopefully with updates)

Why Teen Wolf fans are switching to In the Flesh” by greenbergsays

On Simon loving Kieren - by hellasterek

On Kieren being called a monster - by mercuryphoenix

On Simon still having feeling in his fingertips - by fuckdatveiltho (missing account)

On how Simon reacts to Kieren’s kisses - by alsowizardry

On Simon looking at Kieren - by poesyy

Undead Sex Ed - by greenbergsays

On Amy’s change in epitaphs - by theundeadsiren

On Gary Kendal - by theundeadsiren

Why do you like Jem and not Gary? - by autisticsimon

On Kieren’s reaction to Rick’s second death - by billybr0wn

On the rabid undead - by keiirenwalkr

Isolation and Otherness in ITF - by rise-excalibur

On Teddy Bears in ITF - by garykendal 

On Symbolism in Scenery - by punk-kieren-walker

On Rick and Kieren - by punk-kieren-walker

On Kieren and Anxiety - by punk-kieren-walker

Dominic Mitchell on Maxine Martine (via Twitter) - by witchcloak

Dominic Mitchell on Janet Macy S2 (via Twitter) - by pieofthelord

On the way Simon says Kieren’s name just before they kiss - By chasingshhadows (ok it’s not really meta but you need to read it)

Other References

Season 1 Character Ages (script) - by @theundeadsiren

trypie5  asked:

So i recently finished watching In The Flesh and I'm still trying to figure out how I feel about somethings. So to help me I was wondering what you would say about what made Kieren decide to stop wearing makeup/contacts. Like obvious he thought that what happened at "the lunch" it was unfair, but it just doesn't make sense to me. Hopefully that wasn't too confusing, thanks :)

Hello there! I would be tickled to attempt to help sort some of those feelings out with you! I have a lot of feels about Kieren taking off his mousse, so if we get lost in them, at least we are in good company!

Kieren taking off his mousse doesn’t start at his family lunch, even though it seems like that is the case. Kieren taking off his mousse starts… well, it starts the moment - the ONLY moment - Kieren is openly impressed with Simon. That small, short moment, when Kieren finds a handsome… hot… striking guy perched atop his gravestone, a guy who is decidedly unimpressed with the cover up mousse and contacts Kieren wears, as well as the epitaph on his headstone, a guy who immediately recites a bit of beautiful poetry the moment Kieren suggests he would have preferred poetry. For that little, bitty moment, Kieren sees Simon; a proud, undead man with a soft, dry wit,  a patient, careful demeanor, and a taste for artful words. The guy he meets in that moment is a guy that piques Kieren’s interest, someone Kieren wants to be around (and arguably, someone Kieren wants to be a match for in terms of strength of character and as a person, not necessarily a love match).

This illusion is shattered quite forcibly in the next moment, when Amy arrives to announce Simon is not only a member of the ULA, but the 12th disciple of the Undead Prophet. In Kieren’s words: “Not ideal.”

However, this is also the man who brought Amy back to Roarton. This is the man who, after what Gary did to Amy, played a part in her return to her proud, beautiful “au naturale” appearance. This is the man who stands in front of Kieren and starts plucking at Kieren’s chords, saying all the things Kieren has worked to forget, about how he shouldn’t have to run, how he should be able to live here openly, how he should be able to be himself, etc. Those are all things Kieren feels (and probably feels doubly so, as these are the same things affecting his first life), and Simon isn’t letting them stay buried. He finds Kieren’s buttons, and presses them like an obnoxious, suave, terrible-sweater-wearing child.

And he doesn’t stop. The next time Kieren sees Simon is when Amy and Simon arrive at the Legion to make a point. Now, originally when I watched this scene, I thought that Simon and Amy where there to test the townsfolk, and I still believe that is why Amy went. But not Simon. Simon knew Kieren would be there, and that entire display was ONLY about pressing Kieren’s buttons, to try to get him to see that the cover-up he’s applied to his view of the entire town is just that- a lie. Below the surface, the town is a different creature than the one Kieren is pretending it is. In that entire exchange, Simon says only one word- Kieren’s name. The rest of the time, he watches Kieren. They enter and he watches Kieren’s reaction (which is basically >:| no, simon. bad simon. what have you done, simon. I’m not up for this bullshit tonight, simon.), he seats himself and lets the world react around him. When Gary starts in on them, Simon simply raises his eyebrows at Kieren, who is glaring MIGHTY daggers at him by then. Simon has got his thumb on Kieren’s buttons, and those eyebrows are saying “I’ll follow your lead, Kieren. What are you going to do, Kieren? You told me this place had moved on, Kieren. Ready to admit I was right, Kieren?”

Which, of course, Kieren gets angry about. He doesn’t like being put into this position. He had thought he was FINE just pretending to get along here, and that if he moved elsewhere everything would be better, and now he’s being put on the spot by both Simon and Gary, and if he has to choose a side to lash out at, Gary’s had the longer run of it. And that moment, the one where he stands up to Gary and tells him to get out, is the first phase of taking off his cover-up. That’s the first instance where Kieren yields to Simon’s button pushing and agrees that something is wrong. He doesn’t like it, he’s very pissed about it, but he does agree.

After that, it’s just one thing after another, to be honest. Kieren is, as Jem says and as we see, gentle. He doesn’t want to fight. There is an amount of shit he’s willing to take to keep things cool, keep from having to fight. There’s an amount of being a scapegoat, getting walked upon by others, that Kieren is willing to take, but we watch throughout the season as everything around Kieren starts scratching at that tolerance threshold.

We see Kieren get blocked from escaping to where he thinks it will be better for him. We see a member of Victus start taking over his town’s council. We see the PDS Give-Back Scheme start up, and we see both Simon and Amy protest it or outright refuse it. We see Simon turning up and, once again, getting between Gary and Kieren, when Gary starts to get pissy about them taking a break. We see Kieren resigning himself to the Give-Back work, because it’s only 6 months (okay, only 6 months, Kieren tells himself. I can put up with this that long if it means getting away at the end) and then we see Simon turn up and press the button that shatters that illusion as well. We see Kieren and Simon bickering in the hospital, where Kieren sees that the rabids are being mistreated (even if he’s unconvinced the treatment center is bad). We see Kieren’s dad getting a little weird about him and Amy and the ULA, in particular we see Kieren have a moment of panic when his dad admits he doesn’t think Kieren killed anyone when Kieren knows he did.

We see Kieren stressing out because Simon is trying to find some way to connect, and Kieren doesn’t want to be a part of the cult, and then Simon does The Thing. He does the thing no one else is doing; he puts Kieren first. He tells Kieren “Yes, here is the most important thing in my life right now, and if you want nothing to do with it that’s fine. You’re important enough to set that aside. Whatever you want, that’s what we’ll do. Okay?”

We see Kieren accept that, and the request he makes is for Simon to join Kieren’s world (as opposed to Kieren joining Simon’s, which he has so far refused to do— this is important for later). And Simon does it, no questions, no fight. He puts on cover up and puts in his contacts - something he is entirely against - because that is the what Kieren asked of him. And they both know how big of a deal it is, which is (imo) the reason Kieren chose this thing… and even so, when Kieren thanks him for it, Simon says “it’s okay” like it’s not a big deal. Like it’s just natural for him to yield to Kieren in this respect… like it’s reflex.

And finally, finally, we arrive at that lunch. At this point, Kieren is under so much outside pressure from the town’s happenings and so much inside pressure has built up from everything he feels, that he is ready to break. He is holding it together remarkably well, because he thinks that he is about to make progress in lessening it.

Because look. Here is Simon, a ULA leader, sitting peacefully at the table with his father (who you remember was tense over the ULA). Simon may be able to allay some of Steve’s fears by being… well, Simon. Sue will feel better about Kieren having friends. Simon may see that wearing cover-up isn’t the Terrible, Awful, Very-bad, No Good thing Simon’s made it out to be, that it can really ease tensions between the living and the undead (and maybe Simon will stop pressing Kieren’s buttons about it, wouldn’t that be nice). I honestly think that Kieren went into this lunch expecting that it would help to start heal things that were causing him problems.

What happens is that Gary turns up and tosses a big fucking wrench into the thing. He and Jem come in wearing RPS (HVF) uniforms, and Gary immediately sets about being rude in multiple ways (I personally am ENRAGED over how he ignored his host’s requests to shut the fuck up, it’s possible I’m even more angry about this than I am about what he says). He doesn’t even realize, I think, how hard he is pressing on an overstressed Kieren, and none of them are ready for the way Kieren snaps.

Because he does snap. He is nonviolent, as is true to his character, but he does snap. He is tired of being treated as less than human. He is tired of hiding, and tired of playing along like it’s okay. Sweet, gentle, docile Kieren is sick of seeing Gary (amongst others) get praise for literally murdering people. He is sick of the deaths and plights of the undead being treated as a joke. And the very last people who should be in support of those things happening - his family - let this guy into the house and clearly aren’t going to put their foot down to stop it.

And Kieren takes another layer of cover-up off at the table. He reveals to his parents that he DID kill people, he killed them and ripped them apart and ate them like the predator he is. He tells Gary in no uncertain terms that while Gary is a hunter, Kieren was a hunter, too, and his prey was Gary’s species. Kieren’s hunt wasn’t self defense; Kieren’s hunt was a hunger for blood, a drive to seek out and consume people like Gary. And with Simon, who easily defeated Gary in a physical match, sitting docile at Kieren’s side, I’m sure Gary got the message. You may have killed us, but I killed you too. Keep pressing and find out if I’m still capable.

The major kicker here, is that Kieren gets no backup. Not from anyone, not even Simon (because Simon’s too busy having a crisis of his own). His father outright tells him that he doesn’t have a space to speak, when he was unwilling to put his foot down about Gary telling the same sort of story. It’s the last straw.

Simon was right, Kieren realizes in that moment. Simon was right all along. Things aren’t better here. Things won’t get better as long as Kieren is only pretending. Kieren still feels all the same things he felt when he met Simon - that he shouldn’t have to hide, that he shouldn’t have to be ashamed of existing, that he shouldn’t have to be driven from his home, that he should be able to live like a normal human being if he wants - except the events of the interim between meeting Simon and having this lunch have told Kieren that nothing will change unless he stops pretending.

And that, my dear, is why Kieren takes off the mousse then. Because he has spent the last 4 episodes taking off the cover-up he’d applied to his life, and the last step was wiping his face clean of the pressure the living put on him to appear like one of them. He’s not one of them; they have made that abundantly clear to him.

He takes off the mousse then because he is ready to stand up for himself and the first step is standing up to himself, and the first step toward that is accepting himself for who he really is.

Plot mistake or deliberate?!


                                But all of a sudden something’s
                               different, you feel the wind on the
                                tips of your fingers. And the rain.

Okay, I currently rewatched S2x4 (which is still an amazing episode and the dinner scene deserves all the awards!). However I noticed this part of Kieren’s speech. Which confuses me…:

We know PDS sufferers cannot feel anything (which TBH, is in my my opinion not the smartest idea in general, as it only leads to confusion). BUT Kieren felt the wind and the rain during the rising.

One episode later, the rain is used to show Amy is turning human again. It is a big, emotional, intense moment. But for all intense and purposes, Kieren either should not have felt the rain during his rising OR Amy should not be surprised to feel it in the tent scene.

As both scenarios are talked/shown in two follow-up episodes, it cannot be a mistake. Or if it is a mistake, it is a rather glaring one. 

So what does this mean? What is the purpose of this tiny dialogue? Kieren is showing the same symptoms as Amy at the end of S2. Is he turning human again? (I really do not hope so!) Are they turning into something else? Do they actually become a “superior human race”?! 

Any ideas?!

I’ve seen a few people debating what to make of Amy’s “I know you’re not like that” line. Here’s what I think:

We’ve seen basically every conversation Amy and Kieren have ever had up to that point. He’s never mentioned his sexual orientation to her, but it was obvious he was into Rick. Amy probably assumed from that that he was gay, because, well, for one thing, a lot of people forget that orientations other than gay and straight exist. But also, Amy has (or at least had) a crush on Kieren. The script for episode 1x03 says she would have rather gone home with Kieren than with Philip. So that probably further cemented her assumption that Kieren’s gay, because if he isn’t…well, that would mean he chose Rick over her. And that hurts. 

As for why Kieren didn’t correct her…first of all, it was loud at that rave, and he seemed kind of overwhelmed. And right after that was when his thing with Simon started. So what could he have said to Amy then? “Actually, I’m not gay, I’m attracted to women too, just not you. Also, I kissed your boyfriend.”? Somehow, I don’t think that would have gone over well! It was easier for everyone involved for Kieren to just keep letting Amy think he’s gay.

So I don’t see that line as the writers erasing Kieren’s orientation, so much as showing that, even though Amy and Kieren are close and have known each other for a long time, there’s still a lot they don’t know about each other, and things they hide from each other. And that, at least at that point in his character development, Kieren would rather lie by omission than upset his loved ones.

anonymous asked:

Hi! I asked ked the same question and realised I'd love to hear your answer, too, if you don't mind. :) I'm interested to know what you like about Simon and Kieren's relationship. Is there something specific you enjoy about it or is it the whole thing or that you can relate to it or like, anything really?

Oh man. That is s u c h a loaded question but okay, I’m going to try to answer it as best as possible.

The first thing, I think, is that from a story-telling perspective, it’s beautifully done. It’s subtle in the beginning and the first kiss kind of takes you by surprise but when you go back and watch it again, it’s all there; everything you need to know that no, it actually wasn’t a surprise.

It feels organic, like a real love story. Fumbling and tentative and one person’s falling faster than the other but they’re both still falling. They’re two people who have had entire lives without each other and they don’t know what to do, what to say, how to act around each other yet but they’re both trying. 

You can see that they both have baggage, that they don’t want to walk away from whatever this could be but they also don’t want to be hurt again.

They make mistakes with each other at first - because every relationship will have its mistakes in the beginning, you’re virtual strangers - but then those mistakes are corrected.

At that point, Simon still - to some degree - wants Kieren to be part of the ULA but when Kieren makes it clear that he’s not gonna put up with that shit, Simon’s also quick to make a distinction, to put Kieren in a separate category from his missionary work; there’s his faith and then there’s Kieren and the two don’t have to intermingle for Simon to be happy.

Kieren pushes Simon to wear the cover-up for his family but then he realizes how wrong that was and takes it off him in probably one of the most intimate moments between an OTP ever.

I also like the matter of consent between them, which I’m sure kedreeva will go into great detail about because it’s one of her favorites.

Whatever is happening in their relationship, they’re both on the same page. When Simon goes to kiss Kieren in the kitchen and Kieren tells him no, Simon doesn’t try again, he doesn’t push the matter. They have a discussion about it and then Simon’s basically like, “yeah, okay, you’re right.” He wants to kiss Kieren (a LOT) but he’s willing to wait until Kieren’s comfortable with it because Kieren’s comfort is really fucking important to Simon.

I like that it’s not a perfect relationship; that they have issues to work through but it’s not the silly ones like miscommunication or oblivious pining or a whole plethora of other tropes that we use in fic and that bleed over into television.

I like the fact that we know that Simon is clearly more in love with Kieren than Kieren is with him and yet we see him struggle through episode five and six over what to do with the orders he’s been given.

Because he loves Kieren, yes, but the Undead Prophet, Julian, and the ULA literally saved his life. They helped put things in perspective for him so that he wasn’t just a toy for John & Victor and they took him in when his father kicked him out. They gave him a sense of family again, they have him hope, and yeah, they’ve manipulated him the same way he’s been manipulated before, but Simon doesn’t yet realize that.

I like that he struggled with his decision; that he didn’t immediately and blindly choose one way or the other out of love or loyalty or guilt.

I like their age gap but I also like that Simon treats Kieren as an equal instead of patronizing him.

I like the fact that it’s a canon queer relationship at the forefront of a supernatural/science fiction genre show. Because those genres are my favorite and I hate the fact that I’m only ever given the same bland hetero love story with it. Don’t get me wrong, there’s nothing wrong with straight/hetero relationships and I do find some of them adorable but I don’t want that to be the only relationship I’m fed on television.

I want to see people of all sorts fall in love on screen because then it will be a true reflection of life. Art is supposed to imitate life but right now, “art” is only imitating one specific flower when there’s a whole field of flowers being ignored around it.

So yeah, those are the basics on why I love Simon & Kieren. XD I’ll probably remember more stuff when I post this but hopefully Ked will have picked up my slack on a few points.

anonymous asked:

the second rising is actually just the risen's bodies healing so they can feel, touch, hurt, and eat again. their bodies are returning to the way they were prior to death. this was confirmed by dominic mitchell in an interview.

okay so upon hearing this i have just come up with a very good theory about rising and the first risen okay hear me out

so I know that all the of first to rise were meant to be in roarton but we don’t necessarily know that - it’s just what was rumoured/said in the pds community. so if the second rising was meant to be all of the pds sufferers coming back to life amy would be the first second risen (which wouldn’t be contradicting anything confirmed by dom because he said she was the first risen but didnt specify in which rising) meaning that the first to rise originally had already died (again) or been killed. this technically could be any pds sufferer (like i said before, it was never actually a fact that the first risen was from roarton) but i’d guess its someone we already know (unless some new character was going to be introduced which is unlikely since they have to be dead) so who does that point to? rick. 

rick could still be called the first risen from roarton - just not risen in roarton. and it would really fit what happened.

the first risen had to die to trigger the second rising of the risen’s bodies healing: rick could be a completely undocumented first risen because he he died while missing in action (hence how they (the army, janet and bill) only knew where he was when he was found rabid) and people would have found him with his head blown open but going about trying to eat people and sewn him up and gotten him treated. there would be no way of knowing at what time his limp body suddenly came back to (sort of) life.

then bill kills rick and about a year later pds sufferers begin to come back to life.

(this last part is going off on a tangent) you know that theory about how the symptoms amy experienced when coming back to life were the same as the symptoms of going rabid which could mean the scientists wanted to keep track of who was coming back to life and when? yeah so what if neurotriptyline was the scientists’ way of prolonging the period of time between the first rising and the second because they wanted to look into the pds sufferers conditions more and maybe figure out how to properly bring back the dead. so possibly the second rising theories made by the prophet and pds sufferers were bullshit and nothing at all triggered it apart from the increasing rejection of administered neurotriptyline in certain pds sufferers.

basically, either way, everything that happened to do with the rising and what has happened since was probably all a risky scientific experiment.

I like to suppose that when the undead rehumanize, they are healed of the injuries that would kill them (like Amy’s leukemia, or Simon’s spine wound, or Kieren’s forearm wounds).

I also like to suppose that the bullet Simon took for Kieren didn’t come out the other side (considering it didn’t hit Kieren, so it must still be in him) and that Simon will have to get it removed when he rehumanizes.

I like to suppose that the only scar Simon has left is the thin, stitched line left behind by doctors in the city after they took out that bullet, and that it reminds him that there are things in the world worth dying for and they aren’t the things that got him the first go ‘round.

Additionally, I like to imagine that Simon keeps that bullet somewhere safe, and takes it out and turns it over in his hands, and sometimes Kieren comes and sits next to him and he knows what the bullet is and what it means to Simon (and what it means to him), but he just leans against Simon’s arm and doesn’t say a word.

And I like to believe that, someday, Simon takes the bullet down to a jeweler and gets it crafted into a ring that he uses to propose to Kieren.

Because really, what’s better than the thing that almost took Kieren from Simon being the thing that symbolizes Kieren will stay with him?

greenchesedragon  asked:

Hi! So I have recdntly finished watching In the Flesh. love it! Anyways that is beside the point, sooooo I know that Simon is madly in love with Kieren (and I totally ship them) but if it weren't for the things Simon said and Kieren's intamacy I wouldn't have seen them as two people in love. So essentially my question is- can you explain to me how Simon falls for him in the first place and how their feelings develop and how they show it because I see it but I don't See it

Hiii! Sorry for the late reply ^__^”

Okay wow, I am flattered that you thought I have enough knowledge of the show to actually explain things about it! Thank you so much! I will try my best to express my point of view :) 

I have to say that the first time I watched the show I didn’t really get it either. I mean I did see it, but not really. And then I watched the show again and again and again like a million times and I started to see things differently. I empathise deeply with the characters I love, so that helps, I guess. The way I see it, Simon and Kieren are not really madly in love. I mean, of course they love each other deeply, but there’s nothing mad about it - it’s not a “let’s spend the rest of our forevers together, get married, start a family, live happily ever after” kind of love. Their feelings are deeper than that. I think, in a way, they saved each other. They both had their ideas and convictions about the world and how it is towards people like them, and they both thought they would have to change things in order to finally be okay. To really understand them and their relationship I think we need to understand them individually, and to do that we need to understand their past.

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anonymous asked:

I've been thinking about s/t re: the First Risen and characters' knowledge (or not) of it: when Philip arrives with Amy at the GP's in 2.06 he recounts Maxine "saying s/t about Amy being the first and the last" and the camera is on Simon while he says that. He has this really incredulous look on his face and I wonder if he's starting to believe that he was actually wrong about Kieren being the first? Granted, that's not backed up further by later interaction but I thought it was interesting. :3

Yeah, I’d definitely like more exploration of that in S3 and the beauty of that is that if there is an S3, I know the writers will address it. It won’t just be forgotten. *______*

I think that moment held a couple of realizations for Simon. The first being that he had no guarantees beyond Kieren’s dramatic retelling of his Rising to shock the living present at their lunch; any person could find similar evidence and become convinced - with the same certainty that Simon had - that someone else was The First.

There were no guarantees and he almost killed Kieren over an uncertainty.

The second realization would be that in that moment, Simon was witnessing - and feeling - firsthand the total devastation of losing a loved one to someone else’s “insane beliefs,” to use Kieren’s phrase.

Simon experienced what he would’ve been the cause of had he gone through with it and killed Kieren and he’s maybe, possibly understanding for the first time the real world ramifications of following the Prophet blindly.

He didn’t kill Kieren because in the end, he couldn’t hurt the person he was in love with; Kieren was too important to give up to the Prophet. But what if it had been someone else? What if it had been someone that Simon didn’t know? Would he have still done it? Would he have caused someone else this pain that he now experiences?

Whether or not he realizes right then that Amy actually was the First, I think that moment is important for Simon’s character arc. Because when we first meet Simon, he talks about the casualties of war as though it’s par for the course; tit for tat. “They killed some of ours, so we’ll kill some of theirs,” but Simon’s never lost anyone close to him in this war he now rages.

He has, up until Amy’s death, experienced war at a distance. Now that he realizes exactly what’s at stake, what his past actions and decisions have wrought, it leads him to choosing a different path. Because Simon is neither callous nor heartless and in the deepest parts of his soul, all he truly wants is to be accepted for who he is; for all of the undead to be accepted.

He doesn’t want death and pain for his people and neither, I think, does he want it for the living. He just wants peace and an equal share in the world.

He thought that the ULA gave him a platform to fight for equal rights but he realizes now that he was wrong.

Kieren has been showing him this, bit by bit, and then came the moment when Simon thought he had to kill Kieren and he refused. His unwillingness to do that turned him towards that alternate path but I think Amy’s death cemented everything for him and finally put things into perspective.

Episode five put him at a crossroads and it wasn’t until the very end of episode six that I think he really knew in his bones what he would do.

anonymous asked:

I wanted to ask the super general question of what you like about Simon and Kieren's relationship. Is there something specific you enjoy about it or is it the whole thing or did it evolve (or something idk I'm bad at asking questions but I'd really like to know /0\)?

Okay I was going to answer this dayyyys ago when Greenberg did, but then I realized this is basically going to be a novel because you are, surprisingly, the very first person to ask me this so you’re going to get the full novel. So grab some tea, have a seat, and get comfortable.

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