ITF meta

As I was laying in bed, I suddenly just thought about this tweet and perhaps I’m reading too far into it but bear with me. From other tweets from Dom M, we know that Kieren and Simon on living together in the undead side of town, with only the undead, right… and at the end of series 2, we saw Kieren having tremors like Amy, which led to her returning to life. Now, why would the undead, who can’t eat or drink, living only with other undead, be using dishes? Unless… one of them wasn’t undead anymore… dun dun dun. Perhaps this was a subtle hint that series 3 could have brought Kieren back to life, hiding this new secret as he lived in East Roarton to avoid being taken away to the scientists. Because of course he would tell Simon what happened and there is no way Simon would ever let the people in the treatment centers or the ULA get their hands on him, so they would have no one to turn to and Kieren would need to keep up appearances to avoid being taken. Or its just supposed to be a cute little tweet digging on the nature of their relationship and playing with common tropes of people who eat and drink things… who knows. But I’m still so bitter that we couldn’t find out. And that we don’t have any more content of our favorite risen kiddos. :(

At the end of s2 ep4, its pretty much confirmed by Dom Mitchell that Simon was Kieren’s first kiss. This means that throughout the teenage years of secretly loving each other, Rick and Kieren didnt really kiss because of the danger that they might be found out and sheer teenage awkwardness and their own combined anxiety. 

How often, do you reckon, Kieren wanted to kiss Rick like how he kissed Simon that night. Imagine tiny fourteen year old Ren hearing about what Bill had almost done when he discovered the mix CD. Rick would’ve been so frightened, so needing of that reassurance, but but Kieren knows really that it would only make things worse. 

Slightly taller sixteen year old Kieren smiling as Rick boasts to the rest of the lads about how he got into so-and-so’s knickers and Kieren knows its not really true, because he was with him in the den that night. Then hearing the girls going on about how good Rick is and giggling behind their hands. His heart just breaks, because of course. Rick had to leave at nine. Plenty of time for a date and a shag or whatever. 

Imagine eighteen year old Kieren almost kissing Rick the night before he gets sent to basic, but he just… Doesn’t. Theyre alone. They could. But the times not right so he doesn’t. He would’ve thought that there was always tomorrow, but tomorrow never came. 

And Rick, oh dear, how from when he was old enough to think did he want to love his Ren. Did love his Ren. Wanted to kiss him half the hours in the day, and spend the other half holding his hand or stroking his hair or cuddling. Rick, no matter what age, wanting to hold Kierens hand during school, but couldn’t out of risk of people seeing and telling his dad. Wanted to smooth his cheeks and kiss his forehead when Kieren’s anxiety got bad or his seasonal depression rolled around. 

Imagine Rick fantasising for hours about a day that maybe him and his Ren would be able to kiss and stay close, without the threat of his dads fists in the back of his mind. Imagine the immense urges he got to grab Kieren and kiss him when he’s being particularly adorable or passionate about something and his wide sparkling eyes and flushed skin from getting so excited over what (in Ricks perspective) is just a pretty picture. He’d only ever say that aloud to his dad though, because nothing that made Ren that happy was ‘just’ anything. 

 Of course, Rick would just beat himself up over these thoughts of course, because his dad was there with harsh shouts and fists and expectations of masculinity. Rick suppressing this incredible love for Kieren and it tearing him up inside because its wrong. No matter what. Its sick and disgusting and he’ll go to hell for being a fairy - all explained in loud shouting from his dad, with Rick himself nodding and trying not to whimper. 

These two being so afraid of their situation and wanting and needing much more than their timid friendship with each other without ever getting it is tragic. They never kissed. They never got to show their love for each other. Kieren never got to show how much he truly needed Rick and Rick never got to show Kieren how much he honestly cared, despite everything.

I like to suppose that when the undead rehumanize, they are healed of the injuries that would kill them (like Amy’s leukemia, or Simon’s spine wound, or Kieren’s forearm wounds).

I also like to suppose that the bullet Simon took for Kieren didn’t come out the other side (considering it didn’t hit Kieren, so it must still be in him) and that Simon will have to get it removed when he rehumanizes.

I like to suppose that the only scar Simon has left is the thin, stitched line left behind by doctors in the city after they took out that bullet, and that it reminds him that there are things in the world worth dying for and they aren’t the things that got him the first go ‘round.

Additionally, I like to imagine that Simon keeps that bullet somewhere safe, and takes it out and turns it over in his hands, and sometimes Kieren comes and sits next to him and he knows what the bullet is and what it means to Simon (and what it means to him), but he just leans against Simon’s arm and doesn’t say a word.

And I like to believe that, someday, Simon takes the bullet down to a jeweler and gets it crafted into a ring that he uses to propose to Kieren.

Because really, what’s better than the thing that almost took Kieren from Simon being the thing that symbolizes Kieren will stay with him?

I’ve been thinking a lot about why the fandom is so much more vocal about Gary hate than they are about, say, Bill Macy, who is imo the most despicable character in the series. 

Apart from the obvious “this fandom doesn’t care enough about Rick Macy” angle, I think it’s because Gary is the less frightening of the two. 

Think about it, what does Gary actually get done? Pretty much nothing. His attack on Amy in S1 is horrible but Amy picks herself up and carries on because she knows she’s better than him; his foul language in the pub backfires spectacularly when he ends up being choked by Simon; as close a call as the Blue Oblivion incident is, Kieren overcomes it. 

At the end of the day, our heroes are stronger than Gary. 

Bill, on the other hand, Bill is destructive. He might not achieve his ultimate goal of goading Kieren into a second suicide, but that doesn’t make the murder of his own son any less horrific. 

Kieren is the only survivor, but he certainly hasn’t won. 

So with Gary, unlike with Bill, we feel safe making joke posts about how much we hate him. We can bring it up all the time because we don’t have to think about the consequences of his actions because really… there aren’t many. But we can’t do the same with Bill because when we think about why we hate him we also have to think about what he did, and no-one really wants to think about that. 

anonymous asked:

I wanted to ask the super general question of what you like about Simon and Kieren's relationship. Is there something specific you enjoy about it or is it the whole thing or did it evolve (or something idk I'm bad at asking questions but I'd really like to know /0\)?

Okay I was going to answer this dayyyys ago when Greenberg did, but then I realized this is basically going to be a novel because you are, surprisingly, the very first person to ask me this so you’re going to get the full novel. So grab some tea, have a seat, and get comfortable.

Keep reading


Let me tell you why I think this scene is so important.

When I first saw this scene, I thought, “Simon’s line is so out of character.”, because I remembered the scene in the pub. I remembered Simon’s look at Kieren when Kieren tried to calm the argument between Amy and Gary. I remember his eyes saying “Oh, really? You’re going to let him say that?”

So, obviously, this “leave it”, when you have this first scene in mind, is completely out of place.

But then I realised. Simon doesn’t want Kieren to stop fighting Gary. He is, most likely, happy to see Kieren standing up for himself. If it was anywhere else, at any other moment, Simon would have been glad to see that, probably would have backed Kieren up.

But this is Kieren’s house, he made Simon act “normal” for his parents. Simon knows all about the situation in Kieren’s home, the act he has to pull, the fragile balance that exists in the family.

And even though Simon firmly believes that what Kieren is doing is right, he doesn’t want to let it happen. He doesn’t want Kieren to blow the act, to risk scaring his family, losing it maybe. He wants to protect Kieren more than he wants to protect his beliefs.

There’s what he believes, and then there’s Kieren.

just in case in the flesh s3 doesn’t get picked up, which it probably will be so no worries what do you mean denial??? you’re in denial!, i’ve decided to make a list of things that is 100% likely to happen in it (trust me, it’s science):

  • lisa comes back and she and jem become girlfriends
  • amy is 100 % okay and comes back and goes on to live a long and happy life surrounded by people who love her
  • everything with the undead prophet/the ula works itself out and kieren and simon move to paris! 
  • kieren paints a lot of portraits of simon + wears his ridiculous jumpers 
  • simon plays the guitar and sings softly to kieren when he can’t sleep
  • gary falls into a ditch or something

Zombie Mythology in Modern Television:
The Walking Dead vs. In The Flesh

Secular vs Religious

In The Walking Dead, several characters are religious, but ultimately the narration focuses on the secular causes and consequences of turning. The infectious nature of the disease takes a central role, and whether or not it was caused by God is of lesser concern than what will happen next. On the other hand, major characters of In the Flesh ascribe to a religious explanation, and the second rising mentioned in the Book of Revelations remains at the forefront of plot development.

Destroyed vs Marred

The sudden turning of a large percent of the population takes a heavy and disastrous toll on the entire world of The Walking Dead. In this universe, the apocalypse is bloody and swift. People in this world have to focus on day-to-day survival, and the the impact on personality and character is sometimes just as deadly. The world of In the Flesh, rather, manages to control the effects of The Rising. Although the world is not the same as it was, it has survived in a marred condition, to which people must learn to adjust. The changes in this world are uncomfortable, but for a large part most people have found safety again.

Opposition vs Variation

The symbolism of zombies or undead in The Walking Dead often shows opposition between two extremes: human vs monster, too far gone vs still here, powerful vs weak. What little sympathy is present for walkers is eventually abandoned (by Hershel) or represented as psychotic (Lizzie). The undead of In the Flesh, however, represent the variation in power dynamics of a society. The undead could easily be substituted by particular race, sexuality, nationality, disability, or other marginalized group. These groups have both their allies and enemies, safe spaces and areas of danger. Sympathy for Partially Deceased Syndrome sufferers is not uncommon and is a cause of controversy between characters.

Disease vs The Rising

The origin of the undead in The Walking Dead is attributed to an infectious disease that spread through a population, turning people into highly aggressive, animated yet dead corpses, motivated only by hunger. As of yet, we still don’t know exactly how, when, or where it started. The undead of In the Flesh find their origin in The Rising, in which the dead arose from their graves in a rabid state, seeking to satisfy a hunger for flesh. These undead have more complex cognitive abilities, as demonstrated by their haunting memories of the acts they committed in that state.

Infinite Population vs Fixed Population

In The Walking Dead, the population of zombies is theoretically infinite. Because all humans are infected, they turn undead after their natural death. As long as people die without others having the foresight to destroy their brain, more zombies will be created. On the other hand, there is only a certain number of undead in In the Flesh. Only those who escaped from their graves and survived the attacks by government forces and the HVF remain undead in this world. The state of being undead is not contagious, and therefore current PDS patients cannot create new undead. As of yet, there has been no Second Rising, and the population of undead remains limited to its original number.

isn’t it interesting how Simon came to his parents’ house in the night of the rising?

like, Simon probably haven’t lived with his mum and dad for years, he was a junkie so we can assume that he was kicked from the house and/or they didn’t want to see him. and as far as i understand, zombies’ actions are not motivated by logical thinking. they’re driven by their instinct. what if Simon had this hidden urge to finally come home, reunite with his parents? what if this house was the only where he felt at least a little bit less miserable? what if this urge was so strong that it pushed him to go there when he was dead, when there was no boundaries or rules for him

it’s like he was only waiting to finally come home. i am nOT CRYING YOU ARE CRYING

Welcome to the master list of links to my In the Flesh meta. I’ll try to keep it updated but if I’ve missed something or a link doesn’t work, feel free to let me know. Additionally, if there’s something you would like to see discussed, my askbox and submit are always open.

Please note that everything here is my opinion and thoughts only. It’s 100% okay to disagree. I encourage you to have your own thoughts and open discussion about any and all of these topics.

Meta I’ve Written

Is In the Flesh a show I should invest in?” (Spoiler: the answer is yes)

Kieren Walker

On Kieren” (ITF Appreciation Week Entry Day 1)

Why did Kieren decide to stop wearing cover-up/contacts?

Kieren talking about wanting to have been cremated” (ITF Appreciation Week Entry Day 7)

On Kieren asking Simon where he went

How would Kieren react to knowing Amy was his feral hunting partner?

Why did the scene where Kieren attacks Gary get cut?

On Kieren taking Blue Oblivion

On Kieren’s sexuality

Simon Monroe

On Simon’s character

On Simon at the Walker lunch(Related Tags)(Related Ask)(Related Ask/Meta)
On Simon at the Walker Lunch (part 2)

On Simon having/not having feeling in his fingertips

On Simon going home after rising as a rabid + The Feral Undead

On Simon leading Amy on

How will Simon acquire neurotriptyline now that his ties to the ULA are severed?“ (submission by allthoselostsocks + response)(Related Ask)

Simon and childhood depression

Will Simon be worried about relapse into depression/destructive behaviors as he rehumanizes/becomes a “normal” human?

What happens if the Living take blue oblivion? Re: Simon’s depression returning“ (Related Ask)(Related Meta/Response)

Will Simon stay at Amy’s post series 2?“ (Related Ask)(Related Meta - re: Julian waiting at the bungalow for Simon in script)

Response to Simon’s manipulation techniques with Amy/Kieren

Will Simon’s father return in series 3?“ (Related Ask)


What I like about Kieren and Simon together“ (spoiler: it’s everything)

What are the flaws in Kieren and Simon’s relationship?
What are the flaws in Kieren and Simon’s relationship? (part 2)

Is Simon in love with Kieren (and vice versa) at the end of S2?

On Simon wearing cover up for Kieren“ (ITF Appreciation Week Entry Day 2)

Is Simon putting pressure on Kieren to save him?“ (earlier related ask)(later related reply)

Will Simon tell Kieren what his mission was?
Will Simon tell Kieren what his mission was (part 2)

Do Kieren’s parents know Simon is part of the ULA?

On Kieren requesting help from Simon to leave Roarton

On where Kieren and Simon’s relationship is headed
Where do you WANT to see Kieren and Simon’s relationship go?

Will Kieren ever leave Simon [how will their relationship change])
Will Kieren leave Simon to handle the ULA backlash alone?

How old is Simon and how does it impact his relationship with Kieren?” - (with added commentary from greenbergsays)(also the answer is Simon is 27 according to a graphic BBC3 released via Twitter)(related ask - redeemed-from-the-earth

How the Kieren/Simon relationship affects Kieren” (Related Ask)

Will Kieren move in with Simon + Consequences of Simon’s betrayal

How will Simon feel about Kieren not being The First Risen?

What happened the night Kieren kissed Simon the first time?

On the way Simon positions himself to protect Kieren at the GP surgery

Was Simon manipulating Kieren?

Why didn’t Simon intervene when he saw Gary kidnapping Kieren?

Did Simon change his mind about killing Kieren because Gary stopped him?

Kieren/Simon - who is the top and who is the bottom?” (spoiler: the answer is yes)

Kieren/Simon - who is more affected by jealousy?” (spoiler: they aren’t)

What Simon does with the bullet

Amy Dyer

Was Amy the First Risen?” (Related Ask)(Related Ask - Re: Simon’s perception)

On the music at Amy’s funeral” (ITF Appreciation Week Entry Day 6)

On Amy and Neurotriptyline” (Related Reply - Re: Amy as First Risen)

Why does Amy have bruising/injuries on her belly?

What would Kieren have told Amy about him and Simon?

Amy and Philip

On Amy and Philip’s storylines in S2

Oh Philip admitting he likes Amy” (ITF Appreciation Week Entry Day 5)

The Walkers

On Jem” (ITF Appreciation Week Entry Day 3)

On Jem and Kieren
On Jem and Kieren (part 2)
On Jem and Kieren (part 3)” (ITF Appreciation Week Entry Day 4)

On the Walker family in series 2
On the Walker family in series 2 (part 2)

Why did Sue and Steve name their children Jemima and Kieren?

On the awkward pause after Simon asked how Sue and Steve met” (Related Ask)

Rick | Rick/Kieren

Why I do not like/am uncomfortable about Rick” (Response by fiveyearmission)

On Kieren and Rick never kissing”(Related Ask)(Related Ask)(Related Ask [+Siren])(Related Ask)
On Kieren and Rick never kissing (part 2: Kieren’s first kiss is Simon?)” (Related Ask/Meta - re: Simon’s first serious relationship)(Related Ask)

On Rick returning | On Siren

Kieren in the truck with Rick” (reblog response)

Who wrote ‘Ren + Rick 4ever’ on the cave wall?

If Rick had lived, would Gary be different?

Minor Characters

On Maxine Martin
On Maxine Martin (part 2)” (Addition by bluspero (missing account))

On Dr. Russo

Let’s talk about Gary Kendal

Let’s talk about Shirley Wilson

Let’s talk about Charlotte

Why did Maxine say 'You are the first and the last’ to Amy?” (reblogged response +did Maxine know Amy was Living again)


If the undead are in danger of becoming rabid and thus actually dangerous, does it negate the message of treating the minority groups the PDS suffers represent well?” (Addition by greenbergsays)

Diversity/minorities on In the Flesh

On names

Shirley’s gloves

Where are the local police? Why are the HVF/RPS policing the town?

Cross-Fandom Meta

Cross-show discussion and why to have it

We Aren’t Replacing Sterek; We’re Leaving a Shitty Show for a Better One: the novel

Undead Boner Discussion (and other undead biology)

Can undead with penises have erections?” - the beginning
Response by kittyisnotahappybunny (Related [to response] Ask)(Related Ask)

Biology of the Undead + The Rising Results

Were there males at the undead brothel?

On Amy and Philip having sex

Are the undead unfeeling?
Are the undead unfeeling (part 2)”(Related Ask re: sedation of rabids)(Related Ask - re: taste/smell)

On the biology of the feral undead re:Simon going home/Kieren recognizing Jem

Do the undead need to breathe?

Can the undead cry?

Why does undead eye appearance vary?

On the ages of characters and undead aging

If the undead become living, will they retain their injuries/cause of death?” (Related Ask)(Related Ask)(Related Ask)(Related Ask)(Related Ask - re: Simon’s back wound)(Related Ask - re: Mental States)

Will PDS children develop mentally or remain the same age?” (Related Reply)

On Kieren’s walk” (Related Ask - re: Rigor Mortis)(Related Interview with Luke Newberry)

(Related Ask)(Related Ask)(Related Ask)(Related Ask - Re: The solution)

Tags Meta/Headcanon

Simon at the Legion

Simon awaiting the Prophet’s private message to him

Simon staying

Simon’s face at Amy’s wake

Kieren realizing his father is scared of him

Gary and Kieren in the future

Praise for In the Flesh and its characters

Timeline bullshit I’m still sorting out

Meta I Like Written By Others

Should I watch In The Flesh? - by ChucknRaleigh

On Rick’s military uniform/decorations meanings - by theundeadsiren

Interview Masterlist - by theundeadsiren (It’s not meta, but if you want “behind the scenes” information, this is a great place to look. I linked to the reblog on my own blog, since I know I won’t take it down or change URL, but here is the [Original Post] link as well, hopefully with updates)

Why Teen Wolf fans are switching to In the Flesh” by greenbergsays

On Simon loving Kieren - by hellasterek

On Kieren being called a monster - by mercuryphoenix

On Simon still having feeling in his fingertips - by fuckdatveiltho (missing account)

On how Simon reacts to Kieren’s kisses - by alsowizardry

On Simon looking at Kieren - by poesyy

Undead Sex Ed - by greenbergsays

On Amy’s change in epitaphs - by theundeadsiren

On Gary Kendal - by theundeadsiren

Why do you like Jem and not Gary? - by autisticsimon

On Kieren’s reaction to Rick’s second death - by billybr0wn

On the rabid undead - by keiirenwalkr

Isolation and Otherness in ITF - by rise-excalibur

On Teddy Bears in ITF - by garykendal 

On Symbolism in Scenery - by punk-kieren-walker

On Rick and Kieren - by punk-kieren-walker

On Kieren and Anxiety - by punk-kieren-walker

Dominic Mitchell on Maxine Martine (via Twitter) - by witchcloak

Dominic Mitchell on Janet Macy S2 (via Twitter) - by pieofthelord

On the way Simon says Kieren’s name just before they kiss - By chasingshhadows (ok it’s not really meta but you need to read it)

Other References

Season 1 Character Ages (script) - by @theundeadsiren

Gary Kendal is a dickhead (and I feel sorry for him)

I hate Gary. He’s cruel and bigoted and generally a dickhead. He represents every awful thing about white patriarchy but damn it, sometimes I can’t help but feel sorry for him.

I grew up with lads like Gary who believed that if they just got through school they’d fall into a job. But that’s not what happened. The industries the North relied on are gone and skilled labour isn’t needed any more. Young men are taught that employment (and the ability to support a family that it brings) is the measure of their masculinity. When they can’t find employment working-class men (and women) are portrayed by the media as lazy failures, as if economic depression and the dismantling of the North from Thatcher onwards was somehow their fault. It’s toxic.

 When you’re poor, frustrated and feeling persecuted it’s very easy for the government (with the help of the media) to turn you against other marginalised groups. It’s a distraction tactic. If you’re busy blaming your under/unemployment on ‘the Polish’, the government don’t have to get off their arses and do anything about banning zero hour contracts, instituting a working wage that is a living wage, or creating real economic growth.

 The thing is, even though Gary is a white male, he is an outsider in British society because he’s not the right kind of white male. He is Northern and working-class which perhaps doesn’t sound like a big deal, but if you’re British, it really is. The UK has a history of class division and people are so attuned to observing minute class differences it’s unreal. I know I categorise new people I meet by things as small as what shop they buy their food from, their accent and what word they call their grandmother. I’m not proud of it, but at this point it’s such an ingrained behaviour I can’t stop it.

 The Walkers are coded as being middle-class or at least aspiring to be so. Their house is spacious compared to the Macy’s (which looks like ex-council house stock to me, maybe the Macys bought it as part of the right-to-buy scheme?). They have a blu-ray player and a vestibule on their house, and Steve Walker works as a supervisor for the railways. To me, it seems as if Gary hates Kieren for his class difference, his artistic talent and the perceived lack of traditional working-class masculinity those things point to, as well as his identity as a “rotter”. Even if Kieren wasn’t queer he would still be regarded suspiciously because of those things. When Gary asks Kieren whether he went to the “girls’ grammar”, he’s both making fun of his lack of masculinity/queerness and his middle class aspirations to better himself. His artistic ability is something that will take him further, something to be jealous of - Gary crumpling Kieren’s drawing of Simon is an expression of that jealousy.

(Side note: Jem seems to be excused from the class distrust that Kieren evokes because she proved her worth by joining the HVF.)

 In the world of ‘In the Flesh’ the government’s Give Back scheme seems to be a way of providing free labour for business owners. Maxine promises Sandra Furness to send someone round from the Give Back team to help out at the B&B as a bribe, showing it is easily corruptible, and not really for the benefit for the community as it was advertised. Instead, it’s just taking paid work away from the community. For the PDS sufferers it seems like a kind of public punishment to atone for things they did whilst rabid, and for daring to need support from the government for their medication.

 The fact that Kieren is a PDS sufferer who is in paid employment at the Legion, when Gary doesn’t seem to have any steady employment at all, is salt in the wound for a ‘hero’ who saved his community and now can’t even get a free pint. Gary is reduced to hunting rabids alone for for 80 quid a throw, something most wouldn’t dare do no matter how tight their funds were. When Kieren points out the rabid Gary has brought in is wounded Gary’s rage seems almost justifiable if you think that half of Gary’s wage has just been lost because Kieren grassed him up (the working-class do not grass people up, it’s an unwritten rule).

 Basically Gary is adrift with no employment. He’s not back in education like Jem who has a chance, PTSD aside, to move forward and to grow up. Unlike everyone around him Gary is stationary and unable to evolve. I sometimes wonder whether he did what Jem couldn’t and killed a relative, and clinging on to his belief that all rotters are evil is a way of pushing away guilt.

The First Risen: Flashbacks and Inconsistencies

Ok, let’s talk about the mess that is Kieren’s description of his rising vs. the 1x02 flashback. Because it doesn’t make sense.

SPOILERS below, proceed at your own risk. 

According to the transcript of Kieren’s speech, it was raining when he rose, and he was alone. 

Kieren: […] you’re pushing through, and then all this stuff at once - the moon, and this incredible storm blowing. And the clock chiming midnight and you’re just standing there. Nobody else around and all of it pushing into me.

This is nothing like the 1x02 flashback. The flashback clearly shows Kieren was not alone when he rose from the grave:

We see people walking behind him as he emerges (unless these were not zombies for some reason, but again, he’s not alone). We also see a general chaos at the graveyard. People emerging from their graves, walking around. Definitely not “other graves were fine”:

Not to mention there’s no rain nor storm he described in 2x04.

And then we have:

That’s Amy! She seems to be emerging from her grave at this point (?) So it seems she’s not the First Risen either; she’s definitely not alone when she rose (unless it was a camera trick or something, but it would mean she rose and just… stood there watching others rising before she tried to walk out of the grave). 

So, ugh, how to interpret all of this? There is a clear difference/inconsistency between the flashback and Kieren’s speech. The flashback clearly shows he’s not the First Risen (same goes for Amy and it shatters my hopes of her being the First Risen). 

There are several explanations for this, the most obvious ones being:

  • Kieren is an unreliable narrator and doesn’t remember the events correctly. (But in this case, which version should we trust? The 1x02? The 2x04? None?)
  • It’s a retcon.
  • There is a very clever explanation for this and we’ll learn about it later.

Not sure which one seems to be the most likely option. I don’t hide the fact that I wouldn’t want Kieren to be the First Risen, so I might be nitpicking here, but the differences between two versions of the Rising bug me to no end.

Oh, and I leave you with another tidbit from the transcript:

Kieren: […] And you’re just standing there. Nobody else around and all of it pushing into me. 
Simon: No one else? Are you sure?
Kieren: No. But you know what I felt?

No. Not sure. 


I think this moment in the scene is overlooked because it’s rather subtle.

When they walk up to the GP Surgery, Simon is well behind Kieren, letting him lead their way (as will become typical).

Upon entering, Simon is looking at Kieren (first pic) for cues.

When Dr. Russo calls Kieren’s name, Simon’s attention switches to Dr. Russo and his expression hardens (second pic). Whatever Kieren thinks of this situation, Simon distrusts medical personnel (and with good reason, considering his horrific experiences with them, ESPECIALLY the ones involved with the care of PDS patients).

Simon’s reaction to Dr. Russo approaching Kieren is to move from behind Kieren to in front of Kieren, and stop moving (third pic, though it’s easier to see when they are in motion).

He doesn’t place his body between Kieren and Russo, he’s not blocking anyone from interacting or stopping Kieren from doing anything he wants to do… but he HAS placed himself in such a manner that Russo has to keep his distance from Kieren or else be weirdly in Simon’s personal space. Simon has also placed himself into a position to defend Kieren in an instant if needed, and his gaze is placed off to the side of Russo in such a way that suggests Russo doesn’t need to worry about him because he isn’t even paying attention to Russo. In fact, the rest of his body language suggests his mind’s attention is 100% on Russo.

I love, lovelovelove, this facet of Simon. He trusts Kieren to take care of himself, doesn’t restrict him from doing anything he wants to do, but Simon places himself in a position to step in if he’s needed. 

anonymous asked:

This may seem like of weird but it's always something that's kept me wondering about ITF because I don't know if it's an intentional move or not? An underlying theme is race/racism right? So why is there not more diversity in the cast? Is it because the undead are just a blank slate you could fit any injustice in the world on?

Well, Anon, here’s the thing- you’re making at least three assumptions here, one of which is wrong, one of which is right and wrong, and one of which is right. There’s a lot of explaining that goes into each of those things, so I’m going to do my best to explain what I’ve learned since trying to learn more about this, but I’m also gonna say up front I’m still nowhere close to being an expert with this.

So, the first assumption you are making, the one that is both right and wrong, is that an underlying theme is racism. This is correct, in that it is one of the possible forms of discrimination for which the whole undead situation is an allegory. However, it is also incorrect in that it isn’t The Theme, it is not the only theme or only form of discrimination that could be/is being/is intended to be represented here. I think one of the most powerful facets of ITF’s composition is that the viewer is free to see The Theme as they see fit.

You, for instance, may have watched this show and taken away that the undead situation most prominently represents discrimination against race. I watched the show and took away that the undead situation most prominently represents discrimination against mental illness/differences. My boyfriend watched this show and asked me “Is it still an allegory for discrimination against sexuality if the zombies are actually gay?” (so he was, I assume, taking away that the undead situation most prominently represents discrimination against different sexualities). I have seen others mention forms of discrimination that include things like religion, physical illness (HIV/AIDS, for example), and the like.

So, in that regard, your last assumption, that the undead are “a blank slate you could fit any injustice in the world on” is correct. I think that this is absolutely not a coincidence and is, in fact, the whole point. Everyone can, in some way, relate to this situation.

As for the final assumption (“why is there not more diversity in the cast,” which implies that there is not diversity in the cast), I was initially under this impression myself. What I learned, from the many people who messaged me and took a lot more time than they owed me to explain things (for which I’m very grateful, let’s see if I learned anything), is that the American perception of racial/ethnic diversity is actually vastly different than the British perception of racial/ethnic diversity because the types of discrimination that happen in England are vastly different than the types that happen in America.

The way that I understand it (fingers crossed that I DO understand it) is that when Americans see “minority” discrimination, it is often based on (or viewed as being based on) skin color (which is, I am aware, a very, very broad explanation). Whereas, in England the “minority” discrimination is more often based on ethnicity/culture/status (immigration status as well as financial status, I think?).

A really simple explanation that stuck with me and (I think) helped me to understand it is that, for instance, there are families of people who have been living in England for centuries that are well-off, and may happen to have a different skin color, but these families, because they have been there for so long, are not really looked down upon/discriminated against as outsiders or “minority” in the way Americans think of it. On the other side of that coin, you can have a person who has white skin but has newly immigrated to England from certain places (like maybe Ireland? or folks like the Romani?) and that person may face heavy discrimination because of their status as an immigrant. During my discussions last week, I was informed by more than one person that grouping people into “white” and “POC” outside of the American culture (and even a lot of times in our culture, but that’s another story… I was directed to a really good article about that here actually) really erases a lot of culture and struggles going on for various peoples by lumping them all together into groups that do not accurately represent them. It’s… well, taking away their representation, which is kind of the exact opposite of what the good intention was at the start, ie: to get more representation.

That’s really super simplified, and there are SO MANY other things that go along with it but I honestly believe that if I tried to get any more complex I would end up making a mess of it, so I’ll stop there for now.

What I’m trying to say, overall, is that when an American looks at ITF and the cast, we are seeing things through an American lense and we may not see the “minority” representation we are… hm, accustomed to, or desire to see, or maybe even expect (ie, we may look for skin color and when we don’t see it, or don’t see as much as we desire, we automatically assume a facet of minority representation isn’t happening). However, I’m told that looking through the cultural lense of the people living in that particular community area is a different story, and that ITF is actually doing decently in the department of representation of ethnic minorities.

If I recall correctly, the criticism I did see for it was that Lancashire (I think? gosh i don’t remember the county name and I can’t find the ask rn, so my apologies for that. I was right! Here’s a useful census page sent by one of the people that helped me) has a large population of south Asian people, and that including someone of this descent would possibly bring representation even closer to home/reality.

So, this got long again, but I hope that it answers, or starts to answer anyway, your questions!

I’m not saying you aren’t a clever little shit, Dom, but you named the main character of a zombie show Kieren Walker. Kieren-fucking-Walker. Don’t think I didn’t notice what you did there. I know Kieren means dark.

You named your zombie MC dark walker.

You named your zombie MC “zombie” in namespeak.

anonymous asked:

Since you write such fantastic posts, I was wondering your opinion. Do you think Simon and Kieren are in love (or nearly) by the end of series 3? I'm never quite sure, since a lot of intense stuff goes down in such a short space of time, and everything seems a bit of a whirlwind. Simon seems more infatuated than in love at the moment, and Kieren is still grieving Rick, all the other issues that've been going on. They seem to be on the edge of something that could potentially grow into love?

As a writer, I tend to take a writer’s word about what happens in a story as word-of-god truth (excepting situations where I think what the writer says and what I see on screen is SO dissonant that the actors may have been making some choices about their characters that disagree). As such, Dom Mitchell said in an interview:

With Kieren and Simon’s relationship, it’s just beginning really, they’re not in love with each other I don’t think. I think Simon is much more into Kieren than Kieren is into Simon. I think he’s intrigued and I think he fancies Simon (x)

So of course I’m going to take that into consideration when I am thinking about Kieren and Simon.

That being said, what I see on screen is Simon being smitten with Kieren. Fascinated. Absorbed by. In awe of. Confused by. Interested in. Possibly even in love with the idea of Kieren. What I do not see is Simon being in love with Kieren. This is for two main reasons.

The first reason is that Simon flat-out does not know Kieren. He knows what Amy has told him about Kieren (and we’ve seen Amy have slightly different beliefs about what is going on in the world as opposed to what is really going on in the world). He knows what he has seen of Kieren in their handful of encounters — the graveyard, the Legion, the Give Back fence work, the GP Surgery, their first kiss, the bungalow/lunch day (more on this in a moment), and the day Simon both goes to kill Kieren and ends up saving Kieren’s life.

I think my original mapping of this time period ended up being, like, less than 3 weeks (I have it stuck in my head that we see the date being Dec. 6th early in S2 and then Dec 12th is the fete, but don’t quote me, I’m still doing the timeline project). That’s not a lot of time to get to know someone and definitely not enough time to take off the rose-tinted glasses.

Which leads to my second reason, and that is that Simon’s vision of Kieren gets severely colored in a different light when he thinks he learns Kieren is the First. He already had Kieren on a bit of a pedestal, enraptured by how different he was, how beautiful he was (inside as well as out), but this? Finding out that Kieren is the savior of his people?

I just… you have to understand that this is really cute but REALLY bad for them because as long as Simon sees him as such, I don’t think he can really love Kieren. Not the least of which reasons is because Kieren isn’t actually the First anyway, but because putting him up there as something more than human, something better than everyone else, does two things.

One, it puts him someplace where he doesn’t belong. After all, Kieren really is just a person like he says, and his desire to be treated as a person should be respected by not just Simon, but everyone. That door goes both ways; he shouldn’t be treated as less than a person or more than a person.

Two, it puts him someplace that no one else has to strive to reach. If there is something inherently better about Kieren which sets him apart from others, if Kieren is something that others literally cannot be, then there’s no reason to try to get there. That’s not good. Kieren is a normal person and the good things that he does, anyone can do those things.

So, no, I don’t think that Simon is in love with Kieren— YET. I think he’s going to learn who Kieren really is, though. We know that Kieren doesn’t have a problem voicing how he wants to be treated, and we know that Simon wants to treat Kieren how Kieren wants to be treated, so I think we’ll see that develop along the way.

As for Kieren, well, Dom’s quote says pretty much exactly how I feel about Kieren toward Simon. I think Kieren’s got some learning to do as well, learning how to treat Simon, and learning that Simon won’t necessarily speak up about how he wants to be treated. But, I definitely think that Kieren’s gonna come to love Simon- they’re gonna learn how to love each other, and then they’re gonna do exactly that.

They’re gonna love each other so freaking much our hearts will explode with happiness for them.

time-turns-kittens-to-cats-deac  asked:

What do you think about how most of Amy's plot arc in s02 is centered around romantic attraction to men? Personally, I can't like Phillip. The whole brothel speech scene was great, but I still find him really creepy and slightly stalker-ish. He met a woman, slept with her and then was suddenly in love with her? That sounds more like infatuation to me. Plus, it's the whole "dorky guy gets gorgeous girl" trope which really pisses me off and is evidence of the show being written by a man. Thoughts?

Oookay, this might take a while, because you’ve managed to fit a lot into a little space. Let’s just take this a little bit at a time (though I’m gonna go out of order to get everything in order). Let’s start with Philip.

He met a woman, slept with her and then was suddenly in love with her? That sounds more like infatuation to me.

This, in my opinion, is out of order. Even without taking the original script into account, I believe that Philip met a woman (Amy), and was as instantly smitten with her as Simon was with Kieren. Yes, she is beautiful, but during their first encounter she is also bold and different and when he, acting as a member of the parish council (a position he values and sees as Important, much the same as Simon sees his position as Disciple as important and good), pushes her, she makes it very clear that she is not impressed (much the same way as Kieren does when he meets Simon). In fact, in my consideration, the only reason she bends to Philip’s will at all in that moment at the pub is because she doesn’t want to get Kieren kicked out before he can reunite with Rick (which is the whole point of them being there).

Now take into consideration what happens after Kieren and Rick reunite. Amy is stuck there with Kieren, Rick, Gary, and Philip. It’s clear that Philip is on a different page than the rest of them; he sits apart from them, something even Amy is not made to do. When Rick does talk to Philip, it is to remind Philip of a time he was injured participating in their (most likely) stupid shenanigans (most likely trying to fit in/be cool when in reality Rick and co were probably more interested in making fun of him, all things considered). Then… then Dean enters, and Bill, Rick, Gary, Dean, and Kieren are dragged off, leaving Amy and Philip alone together in the pub.

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