ITF meta

As I was laying in bed, I suddenly just thought about this tweet and perhaps I’m reading too far into it but bear with me. From other tweets from Dom M, we know that Kieren and Simon on living together in the undead side of town, with only the undead, right… and at the end of series 2, we saw Kieren having tremors like Amy, which led to her returning to life. Now, why would the undead, who can’t eat or drink, living only with other undead, be using dishes? Unless… one of them wasn’t undead anymore… dun dun dun. Perhaps this was a subtle hint that series 3 could have brought Kieren back to life, hiding this new secret as he lived in East Roarton to avoid being taken away to the scientists. Because of course he would tell Simon what happened and there is no way Simon would ever let the people in the treatment centers or the ULA get their hands on him, so they would have no one to turn to and Kieren would need to keep up appearances to avoid being taken. Or its just supposed to be a cute little tweet digging on the nature of their relationship and playing with common tropes of people who eat and drink things… who knows. But I’m still so bitter that we couldn’t find out. And that we don’t have any more content of our favorite risen kiddos. :(

At the end of s2 ep4, its pretty much confirmed by Dom Mitchell that Simon was Kieren’s first kiss. This means that throughout the teenage years of secretly loving each other, Rick and Kieren didnt really kiss because of the danger that they might be found out and sheer teenage awkwardness and their own combined anxiety. 

How often, do you reckon, Kieren wanted to kiss Rick like how he kissed Simon that night. Imagine tiny fourteen year old Ren hearing about what Bill had almost done when he discovered the mix CD. Rick would’ve been so frightened, so needing of that reassurance, but but Kieren knows really that it would only make things worse. 

Slightly taller sixteen year old Kieren smiling as Rick boasts to the rest of the lads about how he got into so-and-so’s knickers and Kieren knows its not really true, because he was with him in the den that night. Then hearing the girls going on about how good Rick is and giggling behind their hands. His heart just breaks, because of course. Rick had to leave at nine. Plenty of time for a date and a shag or whatever. 

Imagine eighteen year old Kieren almost kissing Rick the night before he gets sent to basic, but he just… Doesn’t. Theyre alone. They could. But the times not right so he doesn’t. He would’ve thought that there was always tomorrow, but tomorrow never came. 

And Rick, oh dear, how from when he was old enough to think did he want to love his Ren. Did love his Ren. Wanted to kiss him half the hours in the day, and spend the other half holding his hand or stroking his hair or cuddling. Rick, no matter what age, wanting to hold Kierens hand during school, but couldn’t out of risk of people seeing and telling his dad. Wanted to smooth his cheeks and kiss his forehead when Kieren’s anxiety got bad or his seasonal depression rolled around. 

Imagine Rick fantasising for hours about a day that maybe him and his Ren would be able to kiss and stay close, without the threat of his dads fists in the back of his mind. Imagine the immense urges he got to grab Kieren and kiss him when he’s being particularly adorable or passionate about something and his wide sparkling eyes and flushed skin from getting so excited over what (in Ricks perspective) is just a pretty picture. He’d only ever say that aloud to his dad though, because nothing that made Ren that happy was ‘just’ anything. 

 Of course, Rick would just beat himself up over these thoughts of course, because his dad was there with harsh shouts and fists and expectations of masculinity. Rick suppressing this incredible love for Kieren and it tearing him up inside because its wrong. No matter what. Its sick and disgusting and he’ll go to hell for being a fairy - all explained in loud shouting from his dad, with Rick himself nodding and trying not to whimper. 

These two being so afraid of their situation and wanting and needing much more than their timid friendship with each other without ever getting it is tragic. They never kissed. They never got to show their love for each other. Kieren never got to show how much he truly needed Rick and Rick never got to show Kieren how much he honestly cared, despite everything.

anonymous asked:

I wanted to ask the super general question of what you like about Simon and Kieren's relationship. Is there something specific you enjoy about it or is it the whole thing or did it evolve (or something idk I'm bad at asking questions but I'd really like to know /0\)?

Okay I was going to answer this dayyyys ago when Greenberg did, but then I realized this is basically going to be a novel because you are, surprisingly, the very first person to ask me this so you’re going to get the full novel. So grab some tea, have a seat, and get comfortable.

Keep reading

I’ve been thinking a lot about why the fandom is so much more vocal about Gary hate than they are about, say, Bill Macy, who is imo the most despicable character in the series. 

Apart from the obvious “this fandom doesn’t care enough about Rick Macy” angle, I think it’s because Gary is the less frightening of the two. 

Think about it, what does Gary actually get done? Pretty much nothing. His attack on Amy in S1 is horrible but Amy picks herself up and carries on because she knows she’s better than him; his foul language in the pub backfires spectacularly when he ends up being choked by Simon; as close a call as the Blue Oblivion incident is, Kieren overcomes it. 

At the end of the day, our heroes are stronger than Gary. 

Bill, on the other hand, Bill is destructive. He might not achieve his ultimate goal of goading Kieren into a second suicide, but that doesn’t make the murder of his own son any less horrific. 

Kieren is the only survivor, but he certainly hasn’t won. 

So with Gary, unlike with Bill, we feel safe making joke posts about how much we hate him. We can bring it up all the time because we don’t have to think about the consequences of his actions because really… there aren’t many. But we can’t do the same with Bill because when we think about why we hate him we also have to think about what he did, and no-one really wants to think about that. 

I like to suppose that when the undead rehumanize, they are healed of the injuries that would kill them (like Amy’s leukemia, or Simon’s spine wound, or Kieren’s forearm wounds).

I also like to suppose that the bullet Simon took for Kieren didn’t come out the other side (considering it didn’t hit Kieren, so it must still be in him) and that Simon will have to get it removed when he rehumanizes.

I like to suppose that the only scar Simon has left is the thin, stitched line left behind by doctors in the city after they took out that bullet, and that it reminds him that there are things in the world worth dying for and they aren’t the things that got him the first go ‘round.

Additionally, I like to imagine that Simon keeps that bullet somewhere safe, and takes it out and turns it over in his hands, and sometimes Kieren comes and sits next to him and he knows what the bullet is and what it means to Simon (and what it means to him), but he just leans against Simon’s arm and doesn’t say a word.

And I like to believe that, someday, Simon takes the bullet down to a jeweler and gets it crafted into a ring that he uses to propose to Kieren.

Because really, what’s better than the thing that almost took Kieren from Simon being the thing that symbolizes Kieren will stay with him?

just in case in the flesh s3 doesn’t get picked up, which it probably will be so no worries what do you mean denial??? you’re in denial!, i’ve decided to make a list of things that is 100% likely to happen in it (trust me, it’s science):

  • lisa comes back and she and jem become girlfriends
  • amy is 100 % okay and comes back and goes on to live a long and happy life surrounded by people who love her
  • everything with the undead prophet/the ula works itself out and kieren and simon move to paris! 
  • kieren paints a lot of portraits of simon + wears his ridiculous jumpers 
  • simon plays the guitar and sings softly to kieren when he can’t sleep
  • gary falls into a ditch or something

isn’t it interesting how Simon came to his parents’ house in the night of the rising?

like, Simon probably haven’t lived with his mum and dad for years, he was a junkie so we can assume that he was kicked from the house and/or they didn’t want to see him. and as far as i understand, zombies’ actions are not motivated by logical thinking. they’re driven by their instinct. what if Simon had this hidden urge to finally come home, reunite with his parents? what if this house was the only where he felt at least a little bit less miserable? what if this urge was so strong that it pushed him to go there when he was dead, when there was no boundaries or rules for him

it’s like he was only waiting to finally come home. i am nOT CRYING YOU ARE CRYING


Zombie Mythology in Modern Television:
The Walking Dead vs. In The Flesh

Secular vs Religious

In The Walking Dead, several characters are religious, but ultimately the narration focuses on the secular causes and consequences of turning. The infectious nature of the disease takes a central role, and whether or not it was caused by God is of lesser concern than what will happen next. On the other hand, major characters of In the Flesh ascribe to a religious explanation, and the second rising mentioned in the Book of Revelations remains at the forefront of plot development.

Destroyed vs Marred

The sudden turning of a large percent of the population takes a heavy and disastrous toll on the entire world of The Walking Dead. In this universe, the apocalypse is bloody and swift. People in this world have to focus on day-to-day survival, and the the impact on personality and character is sometimes just as deadly. The world of In the Flesh, rather, manages to control the effects of The Rising. Although the world is not the same as it was, it has survived in a marred condition, to which people must learn to adjust. The changes in this world are uncomfortable, but for a large part most people have found safety again.

Opposition vs Variation

The symbolism of zombies or undead in The Walking Dead often shows opposition between two extremes: human vs monster, too far gone vs still here, powerful vs weak. What little sympathy is present for walkers is eventually abandoned (by Hershel) or represented as psychotic (Lizzie). The undead of In the Flesh, however, represent the variation in power dynamics of a society. The undead could easily be substituted by particular race, sexuality, nationality, disability, or other marginalized group. These groups have both their allies and enemies, safe spaces and areas of danger. Sympathy for Partially Deceased Syndrome sufferers is not uncommon and is a cause of controversy between characters.

Disease vs The Rising

The origin of the undead in The Walking Dead is attributed to an infectious disease that spread through a population, turning people into highly aggressive, animated yet dead corpses, motivated only by hunger. As of yet, we still don’t know exactly how, when, or where it started. The undead of In the Flesh find their origin in The Rising, in which the dead arose from their graves in a rabid state, seeking to satisfy a hunger for flesh. These undead have more complex cognitive abilities, as demonstrated by their haunting memories of the acts they committed in that state.

Infinite Population vs Fixed Population

In The Walking Dead, the population of zombies is theoretically infinite. Because all humans are infected, they turn undead after their natural death. As long as people die without others having the foresight to destroy their brain, more zombies will be created. On the other hand, there is only a certain number of undead in In the Flesh. Only those who escaped from their graves and survived the attacks by government forces and the HVF remain undead in this world. The state of being undead is not contagious, and therefore current PDS patients cannot create new undead. As of yet, there has been no Second Rising, and the population of undead remains limited to its original number.


Let me tell you why I think this scene is so important.

When I first saw this scene, I thought, “Simon’s line is so out of character.”, because I remembered the scene in the pub. I remembered Simon’s look at Kieren when Kieren tried to calm the argument between Amy and Gary. I remember his eyes saying “Oh, really? You’re going to let him say that?”

So, obviously, this “leave it”, when you have this first scene in mind, is completely out of place.

But then I realised. Simon doesn’t want Kieren to stop fighting Gary. He is, most likely, happy to see Kieren standing up for himself. If it was anywhere else, at any other moment, Simon would have been glad to see that, probably would have backed Kieren up.

But this is Kieren’s house, he made Simon act “normal” for his parents. Simon knows all about the situation in Kieren’s home, the act he has to pull, the fragile balance that exists in the family.

And even though Simon firmly believes that what Kieren is doing is right, he doesn’t want to let it happen. He doesn’t want Kieren to blow the act, to risk scaring his family, losing it maybe. He wants to protect Kieren more than he wants to protect his beliefs.

There’s what he believes, and then there’s Kieren.

Gary Kendal is a dickhead (and I feel sorry for him)

I hate Gary. He’s cruel and bigoted and generally a dickhead. He represents every awful thing about white patriarchy but damn it, sometimes I can’t help but feel sorry for him.

I grew up with lads like Gary who believed that if they just got through school they’d fall into a job. But that’s not what happened. The industries the North relied on are gone and skilled labour isn’t needed any more. Young men are taught that employment (and the ability to support a family that it brings) is the measure of their masculinity. When they can’t find employment working-class men (and women) are portrayed by the media as lazy failures, as if economic depression and the dismantling of the North from Thatcher onwards was somehow their fault. It’s toxic.

 When you’re poor, frustrated and feeling persecuted it’s very easy for the government (with the help of the media) to turn you against other marginalised groups. It’s a distraction tactic. If you’re busy blaming your under/unemployment on ‘the Polish’, the government don’t have to get off their arses and do anything about banning zero hour contracts, instituting a working wage that is a living wage, or creating real economic growth.

 The thing is, even though Gary is a white male, he is an outsider in British society because he’s not the right kind of white male. He is Northern and working-class which perhaps doesn’t sound like a big deal, but if you’re British, it really is. The UK has a history of class division and people are so attuned to observing minute class differences it’s unreal. I know I categorise new people I meet by things as small as what shop they buy their food from, their accent and what word they call their grandmother. I’m not proud of it, but at this point it’s such an ingrained behaviour I can’t stop it.

 The Walkers are coded as being middle-class or at least aspiring to be so. Their house is spacious compared to the Macy’s (which looks like ex-council house stock to me, maybe the Macys bought it as part of the right-to-buy scheme?). They have a blu-ray player and a vestibule on their house, and Steve Walker works as a supervisor for the railways. To me, it seems as if Gary hates Kieren for his class difference, his artistic talent and the perceived lack of traditional working-class masculinity those things point to, as well as his identity as a “rotter”. Even if Kieren wasn’t queer he would still be regarded suspiciously because of those things. When Gary asks Kieren whether he went to the “girls’ grammar”, he’s both making fun of his lack of masculinity/queerness and his middle class aspirations to better himself. His artistic ability is something that will take him further, something to be jealous of - Gary crumpling Kieren’s drawing of Simon is an expression of that jealousy.

(Side note: Jem seems to be excused from the class distrust that Kieren evokes because she proved her worth by joining the HVF.)

 In the world of ‘In the Flesh’ the government’s Give Back scheme seems to be a way of providing free labour for business owners. Maxine promises Sandra Furness to send someone round from the Give Back team to help out at the B&B as a bribe, showing it is easily corruptible, and not really for the benefit for the community as it was advertised. Instead, it’s just taking paid work away from the community. For the PDS sufferers it seems like a kind of public punishment to atone for things they did whilst rabid, and for daring to need support from the government for their medication.

 The fact that Kieren is a PDS sufferer who is in paid employment at the Legion, when Gary doesn’t seem to have any steady employment at all, is salt in the wound for a ‘hero’ who saved his community and now can’t even get a free pint. Gary is reduced to hunting rabids alone for for 80 quid a throw, something most wouldn’t dare do no matter how tight their funds were. When Kieren points out the rabid Gary has brought in is wounded Gary’s rage seems almost justifiable if you think that half of Gary’s wage has just been lost because Kieren grassed him up (the working-class do not grass people up, it’s an unwritten rule).

 Basically Gary is adrift with no employment. He’s not back in education like Jem who has a chance, PTSD aside, to move forward and to grow up. Unlike everyone around him Gary is stationary and unable to evolve. I sometimes wonder whether he did what Jem couldn’t and killed a relative, and clinging on to his belief that all rotters are evil is a way of pushing away guilt.


I think this moment in the scene is overlooked because it’s rather subtle.

When they walk up to the GP Surgery, Simon is well behind Kieren, letting him lead their way (as will become typical).

Upon entering, Simon is looking at Kieren (first pic) for cues.

When Dr. Russo calls Kieren’s name, Simon’s attention switches to Dr. Russo and his expression hardens (second pic). Whatever Kieren thinks of this situation, Simon distrusts medical personnel (and with good reason, considering his horrific experiences with them, ESPECIALLY the ones involved with the care of PDS patients).

Simon’s reaction to Dr. Russo approaching Kieren is to move from behind Kieren to in front of Kieren, and stop moving (third pic, though it’s easier to see when they are in motion).

He doesn’t place his body between Kieren and Russo, he’s not blocking anyone from interacting or stopping Kieren from doing anything he wants to do… but he HAS placed himself in such a manner that Russo has to keep his distance from Kieren or else be weirdly in Simon’s personal space. Simon has also placed himself into a position to defend Kieren in an instant if needed, and his gaze is placed off to the side of Russo in such a way that suggests Russo doesn’t need to worry about him because he isn’t even paying attention to Russo. In fact, the rest of his body language suggests his mind’s attention is 100% on Russo.

I love, lovelovelove, this facet of Simon. He trusts Kieren to take care of himself, doesn’t restrict him from doing anything he wants to do, but Simon places himself in a position to step in if he’s needed. 

The First Risen: Flashbacks and Inconsistencies

Ok, let’s talk about the mess that is Kieren’s description of his rising vs. the 1x02 flashback. Because it doesn’t make sense.

SPOILERS below, proceed at your own risk. 

According to the transcript of Kieren’s speech, it was raining when he rose, and he was alone. 

Kieren: […] you’re pushing through, and then all this stuff at once - the moon, and this incredible storm blowing. And the clock chiming midnight and you’re just standing there. Nobody else around and all of it pushing into me.

This is nothing like the 1x02 flashback. The flashback clearly shows Kieren was not alone when he rose from the grave:

We see people walking behind him as he emerges (unless these were not zombies for some reason, but again, he’s not alone). We also see a general chaos at the graveyard. People emerging from their graves, walking around. Definitely not “other graves were fine”:

Not to mention there’s no rain nor storm he described in 2x04.

And then we have:

That’s Amy! She seems to be emerging from her grave at this point (?) So it seems she’s not the First Risen either; she’s definitely not alone when she rose (unless it was a camera trick or something, but it would mean she rose and just… stood there watching others rising before she tried to walk out of the grave). 

So, ugh, how to interpret all of this? There is a clear difference/inconsistency between the flashback and Kieren’s speech. The flashback clearly shows he’s not the First Risen (same goes for Amy and it shatters my hopes of her being the First Risen). 

There are several explanations for this, the most obvious ones being:

  • Kieren is an unreliable narrator and doesn’t remember the events correctly. (But in this case, which version should we trust? The 1x02? The 2x04? None?)
  • It’s a retcon.
  • There is a very clever explanation for this and we’ll learn about it later.

Not sure which one seems to be the most likely option. I don’t hide the fact that I wouldn’t want Kieren to be the First Risen, so I might be nitpicking here, but the differences between two versions of the Rising bug me to no end.

Oh, and I leave you with another tidbit from the transcript:

Kieren: […] And you’re just standing there. Nobody else around and all of it pushing into me. 
Simon: No one else? Are you sure?
Kieren: No. But you know what I felt?

No. Not sure. 

anonymous asked:

Since you write such fantastic posts, I was wondering your opinion. Do you think Simon and Kieren are in love (or nearly) by the end of series 3? I'm never quite sure, since a lot of intense stuff goes down in such a short space of time, and everything seems a bit of a whirlwind. Simon seems more infatuated than in love at the moment, and Kieren is still grieving Rick, all the other issues that've been going on. They seem to be on the edge of something that could potentially grow into love?

As a writer, I tend to take a writer’s word about what happens in a story as word-of-god truth (excepting situations where I think what the writer says and what I see on screen is SO dissonant that the actors may have been making some choices about their characters that disagree). As such, Dom Mitchell said in an interview:

With Kieren and Simon’s relationship, it’s just beginning really, they’re not in love with each other I don’t think. I think Simon is much more into Kieren than Kieren is into Simon. I think he’s intrigued and I think he fancies Simon (x)

So of course I’m going to take that into consideration when I am thinking about Kieren and Simon.

That being said, what I see on screen is Simon being smitten with Kieren. Fascinated. Absorbed by. In awe of. Confused by. Interested in. Possibly even in love with the idea of Kieren. What I do not see is Simon being in love with Kieren. This is for two main reasons.

The first reason is that Simon flat-out does not know Kieren. He knows what Amy has told him about Kieren (and we’ve seen Amy have slightly different beliefs about what is going on in the world as opposed to what is really going on in the world). He knows what he has seen of Kieren in their handful of encounters — the graveyard, the Legion, the Give Back fence work, the GP Surgery, their first kiss, the bungalow/lunch day (more on this in a moment), and the day Simon both goes to kill Kieren and ends up saving Kieren’s life.

I think my original mapping of this time period ended up being, like, less than 3 weeks (I have it stuck in my head that we see the date being Dec. 6th early in S2 and then Dec 12th is the fete, but don’t quote me, I’m still doing the timeline project). That’s not a lot of time to get to know someone and definitely not enough time to take off the rose-tinted glasses.

Which leads to my second reason, and that is that Simon’s vision of Kieren gets severely colored in a different light when he thinks he learns Kieren is the First. He already had Kieren on a bit of a pedestal, enraptured by how different he was, how beautiful he was (inside as well as out), but this? Finding out that Kieren is the savior of his people?

I just… you have to understand that this is really cute but REALLY bad for them because as long as Simon sees him as such, I don’t think he can really love Kieren. Not the least of which reasons is because Kieren isn’t actually the First anyway, but because putting him up there as something more than human, something better than everyone else, does two things.

One, it puts him someplace where he doesn’t belong. After all, Kieren really is just a person like he says, and his desire to be treated as a person should be respected by not just Simon, but everyone. That door goes both ways; he shouldn’t be treated as less than a person or more than a person.

Two, it puts him someplace that no one else has to strive to reach. If there is something inherently better about Kieren which sets him apart from others, if Kieren is something that others literally cannot be, then there’s no reason to try to get there. That’s not good. Kieren is a normal person and the good things that he does, anyone can do those things.

So, no, I don’t think that Simon is in love with Kieren— YET. I think he’s going to learn who Kieren really is, though. We know that Kieren doesn’t have a problem voicing how he wants to be treated, and we know that Simon wants to treat Kieren how Kieren wants to be treated, so I think we’ll see that develop along the way.

As for Kieren, well, Dom’s quote says pretty much exactly how I feel about Kieren toward Simon. I think Kieren’s got some learning to do as well, learning how to treat Simon, and learning that Simon won’t necessarily speak up about how he wants to be treated. But, I definitely think that Kieren’s gonna come to love Simon- they’re gonna learn how to love each other, and then they’re gonna do exactly that.

They’re gonna love each other so freaking much our hearts will explode with happiness for them.

anonymous asked:

what do you think are the biggest flaws in the kieran/simon relationship if any

“If any” haaaaa ohmygod where do I even start on the flaws?? How do you define biggest? Let’s go with favorite instead~

My favorite Simon “flaw” (really it’s the things about the relationship which are, in my view, unhealthy) for their relationship spawns from when Simon says “Tell me what you want… I’ll do anything I can to give it to you.” This, on a surface level, seems really sweet aww ohmygosh he loves Kieren so much he’s trying to make him happyyyy- NO.

No, that’s not what this is about. It might have been about that, if the scene were not followed by an example of what it IS about, and that is that Simon was 100% dead serious (lolll i hate myself) when he said he would do anything- including sacrificing his own happiness. And that’s not hypothetical, it’s not theoretical… Literally in the next scene Kieren asks Simon to apply cover-up and put in contacts, something which is against Simon’s beliefs, something which clearly makes him very uncomfortable, something he does not want to do, and Simon does it because that’s what Kieren wants. That’s so unhealthy and we need to be shown that Simon is as functional as Kieren is when it comes to making decisions about and for Kieren.

Now, granted, we see Kieren apologize for his choice by cleaning off Simon’s face first later that night, which is fantastic, but just because Kieren realized he did something wrong doesn’t mean he realizes how to change, and it doesn’t mean Simon’s mindset has changed. Kieren may have realized it was wrong to ask Simon to wear cover-up because it is wrong to hide who they are, because it made Simon uncomfortable, because Simon was right to not want to hide himself… but Kieren may not realize it was wrong to ask Simon to compromise his own happiness, and he may not realize the extent to which he holds power over Simon in this respect.

Another major flaw in their relationship, on Kieren’s side, is the way Kieren treats Simon’s (for lack of a better word) religion. We, as viewers, are aware that the ULA is a cult, and that there are bad things happening, that it has bad intentions. Kieren has gauged some of this himself (the ULA is giving out blue oblivion, which has gotten people hurt and/or killed, for starters), but we have to remember he doesn’t know the full extent.

I view the ULA kind of like how I view PETA. It’s an extremist group and they do some really shitty things, but the people who don’t know all the shitty things that they do may follow them for good-intention reasons. PETA, for all the wrong ways it goes about things and bad things it does, is supposed to stand for animal rights in the same way that the ULA, for all the wrong ways it goes about things and bad things it does, is supposed to stand for PDS sufferer rights.

The people who believe in the ULA, like Simon, believe in the message of fighting for PDS sufferer rights. They want to work for better conditions for PDS sufferers. They want freedom for PDS sufferers, want them all to be treated as equals. That’s not wrong, that message is not wrong. What’s wrong is blindly supporting the organization in charge of the fight, without asking if they are doing questionable things, without investigating for yourself what methods are being used.

Kieren, however, outright rejects all of it (which is fine, that is his prerogative) in a pretty rude way (which is not so cool). As much as I love Kieren’s ability to not put up with “cult bullshit,” the way he scoffs at, dismisses, and looks down upon Simon’s beliefs (which, may I remind you, are not ill-intentioned, Simon’s beliefs are that the PDS deserve to be treated better than they are, that they do not deserve to be persecuted or hurt for being what they are) doesn’t really sit well with me.

I want respect in this relationship. On the one hand we have Simon who is currently blinded to Kieren’s flaws and thus incapable of actual respect (which stems from more than just liking someone, liking someone and respecting them are two different things) and on the other hand you have Kieren who only respects Simon when Simon is doing what Kieren wants. Even at the wake, when Kieren stays quiet to let Simon decide whether to stay or go, we have no proof Kieren would have been accepting and respectful of Simon’s decision if he’d chosen to leave instead.

Outside of those two major flaws, there are problems the two of them are going to have.

For one, Simon has yet to tell Kieren about what he was doing in the graveyard (which I 100% think he will do, there just hasn’t been an appropriate chance yet). That’s going to be a HUGE issue, and I really need Kieren to ask Simon “what if you’d thought it was Amy?” because that answer is going to be SUPER IMPORTANT. Like, the wrong answer to that question could end them.

We also have the fact that Simon has an addictive personality; he seeks out something and loses himself to it. In his first life, it was drugs. In this second life, it was the ULA. When he severed those ties, he was set adrift and I have concerns that the next addiction he will suffer is Kieren. As excellent and awesome as it was that he was willing to give up the ULA and take that bullet for Kieren, I need to see that he hasn’t given himself up to Kieren instead now, that Simon can be Simon apart from Kieren.

I talked a little about this before, but Simon is in an uncomfortable situation in regards to his entire fucking life right now. He has chosen to stay in Roarton (to be with/protect Kieren), but he doesn’t actually have anywhere else to go. He can’t go to his family. He can’t go to the ULA or their communes. He doesn’t have a place of his own (it’s possible Amy left the bungalow to him, of course, but that doesn’t give him anywhere “else” to go still). He’s severed his only friendly ties in order to save Kieren’s life… which is something Kieren does not know yet. I think it will be important to see Kieren retain his ability to make sound decisions in light of that information.

I personally think all of the above are surmountable problems/flaws, and I think that they would get addressed in future seasons if we’re granted that much more, and I would THOROUGHLY enjoy watching them work through all this.

I’m sure I missed things, but it’s been a very long day, so hopefully this is a good starting point for you :)

Welcome to the master list of links to my In the Flesh meta. I’ll try to keep it updated but if I’ve missed something or a link doesn’t work, feel free to let me know. Additionally, if there’s something you would like to see discussed, my askbox and submit are always open.

Please note that everything here is my opinion and thoughts only. It’s 100% okay to disagree. I encourage you to have your own thoughts and open discussion about any and all of these topics.

Meta I’ve Written

Is In the Flesh a show I should invest in?” (Spoiler: the answer is yes)

Kieren Walker

On Kieren” (ITF Appreciation Week Entry Day 1)

Why did Kieren decide to stop wearing cover-up/contacts?

Kieren talking about wanting to have been cremated” (ITF Appreciation Week Entry Day 7)

On Kieren asking Simon where he went

How would Kieren react to knowing Amy was his feral hunting partner?

Why did the scene where Kieren attacks Gary get cut?

On Kieren taking Blue Oblivion

On Kieren’s sexuality

Simon Monroe

On Simon’s character

On Simon at the Walker lunch(Related Tags)(Related Ask)(Related Ask/Meta)
On Simon at the Walker Lunch (part 2)

On Simon having/not having feeling in his fingertips

On Simon going home after rising as a rabid + The Feral Undead

On Simon leading Amy on

How will Simon acquire neurotriptyline now that his ties to the ULA are severed?“ (submission by allthoselostsocks + response)(Related Ask)

Simon and childhood depression

Will Simon be worried about relapse into depression/destructive behaviors as he rehumanizes/becomes a “normal” human?

What happens if the Living take blue oblivion? Re: Simon’s depression returning“ (Related Ask)(Related Meta/Response)

Will Simon stay at Amy’s post series 2?“ (Related Ask)(Related Meta - re: Julian waiting at the bungalow for Simon in script)

Response to Simon’s manipulation techniques with Amy/Kieren

Will Simon’s father return in series 3?“ (Related Ask)


What I like about Kieren and Simon together“ (spoiler: it’s everything)

What are the flaws in Kieren and Simon’s relationship?
What are the flaws in Kieren and Simon’s relationship? (part 2)

Is Simon in love with Kieren (and vice versa) at the end of S2?

On Simon wearing cover up for Kieren“ (ITF Appreciation Week Entry Day 2)

Is Simon putting pressure on Kieren to save him?“ (earlier related ask)(later related reply)

Will Simon tell Kieren what his mission was?
Will Simon tell Kieren what his mission was (part 2)

Do Kieren’s parents know Simon is part of the ULA?

On Kieren requesting help from Simon to leave Roarton

On where Kieren and Simon’s relationship is headed
Where do you WANT to see Kieren and Simon’s relationship go?

Will Kieren ever leave Simon [how will their relationship change])
Will Kieren leave Simon to handle the ULA backlash alone?

How old is Simon and how does it impact his relationship with Kieren?” - (with added commentary from greenbergsays)(also the answer is Simon is 27 according to a graphic BBC3 released via Twitter)(related ask - redeemed-from-the-earth

How the Kieren/Simon relationship affects Kieren” (Related Ask)

Will Kieren move in with Simon + Consequences of Simon’s betrayal

How will Simon feel about Kieren not being The First Risen?

What happened the night Kieren kissed Simon the first time?

On the way Simon positions himself to protect Kieren at the GP surgery

Was Simon manipulating Kieren?

Why didn’t Simon intervene when he saw Gary kidnapping Kieren?

Did Simon change his mind about killing Kieren because Gary stopped him?

Kieren/Simon - who is the top and who is the bottom?” (spoiler: the answer is yes)

Kieren/Simon - who is more affected by jealousy?” (spoiler: they aren’t)

What Simon does with the bullet

Amy Dyer

Was Amy the First Risen?” (Related Ask)(Related Ask - Re: Simon’s perception)

On the music at Amy’s funeral” (ITF Appreciation Week Entry Day 6)

On Amy and Neurotriptyline” (Related Reply - Re: Amy as First Risen)

Why does Amy have bruising/injuries on her belly?

What would Kieren have told Amy about him and Simon?

Amy and Philip

On Amy and Philip’s storylines in S2

Oh Philip admitting he likes Amy” (ITF Appreciation Week Entry Day 5)

The Walkers

On Jem” (ITF Appreciation Week Entry Day 3)

On Jem and Kieren
On Jem and Kieren (part 2)
On Jem and Kieren (part 3)” (ITF Appreciation Week Entry Day 4)

On the Walker family in series 2
On the Walker family in series 2 (part 2)

Why did Sue and Steve name their children Jemima and Kieren?

On the awkward pause after Simon asked how Sue and Steve met” (Related Ask)

Rick | Rick/Kieren

Why I do not like/am uncomfortable about Rick” (Response by fiveyearmission)

On Kieren and Rick never kissing”(Related Ask)(Related Ask)(Related Ask [+Siren])(Related Ask)
On Kieren and Rick never kissing (part 2: Kieren’s first kiss is Simon?)” (Related Ask/Meta - re: Simon’s first serious relationship)(Related Ask)

On Rick returning | On Siren

Kieren in the truck with Rick” (reblog response)

Who wrote ‘Ren + Rick 4ever’ on the cave wall?

If Rick had lived, would Gary be different?

Minor Characters

On Maxine Martin
On Maxine Martin (part 2)” (Addition by bluspero (missing account))

On Dr. Russo

Let’s talk about Gary Kendal

Let’s talk about Shirley Wilson

Let’s talk about Charlotte

Why did Maxine say 'You are the first and the last’ to Amy?” (reblogged response +did Maxine know Amy was Living again)


If the undead are in danger of becoming rabid and thus actually dangerous, does it negate the message of treating the minority groups the PDS suffers represent well?” (Addition by greenbergsays)

Diversity/minorities on In the Flesh

On names

Shirley’s gloves

Where are the local police? Why are the HVF/RPS policing the town?

Cross-Fandom Meta

Cross-show discussion and why to have it

We Aren’t Replacing Sterek; We’re Leaving a Shitty Show for a Better One: the novel

Undead Boner Discussion (and other undead biology)

Can undead with penises have erections?” - the beginning
Response by kittyisnotahappybunny (Related [to response] Ask)(Related Ask)

Biology of the Undead + The Rising Results

Were there males at the undead brothel?

On Amy and Philip having sex

Are the undead unfeeling?
Are the undead unfeeling (part 2)”(Related Ask re: sedation of rabids)(Related Ask - re: taste/smell)

On the biology of the feral undead re:Simon going home/Kieren recognizing Jem

Do the undead need to breathe?

Can the undead cry?

Why does undead eye appearance vary?

On the ages of characters and undead aging

If the undead become living, will they retain their injuries/cause of death?” (Related Ask)(Related Ask)(Related Ask)(Related Ask)(Related Ask - re: Simon’s back wound)(Related Ask - re: Mental States)

Will PDS children develop mentally or remain the same age?” (Related Reply)

On Kieren’s walk” (Related Ask - re: Rigor Mortis)(Related Interview with Luke Newberry)

(Related Ask)(Related Ask)(Related Ask)(Related Ask - Re: The solution)

Tags Meta/Headcanon

Simon at the Legion

Simon awaiting the Prophet’s private message to him

Simon staying

Simon’s face at Amy’s wake

Kieren realizing his father is scared of him

Gary and Kieren in the future

Praise for In the Flesh and its characters

Timeline bullshit I’m still sorting out

Meta I Like Written By Others

Should I watch In The Flesh? - by ChucknRaleigh

On Rick’s military uniform/decorations meanings - by theundeadsiren

Interview Masterlist - by theundeadsiren (It’s not meta, but if you want “behind the scenes” information, this is a great place to look. I linked to the reblog on my own blog, since I know I won’t take it down or change URL, but here is the [Original Post] link as well, hopefully with updates)

Why Teen Wolf fans are switching to In the Flesh” by greenbergsays

On Simon loving Kieren - by hellasterek

On Kieren being called a monster - by mercuryphoenix

On Simon still having feeling in his fingertips - by fuckdatveiltho (missing account)

On how Simon reacts to Kieren’s kisses - by alsowizardry

On Simon looking at Kieren - by poesyy

Undead Sex Ed - by greenbergsays

On Amy’s change in epitaphs - by theundeadsiren

On Gary Kendal - by theundeadsiren

Why do you like Jem and not Gary? - by autisticsimon

On Kieren’s reaction to Rick’s second death - by billybr0wn

On the rabid undead - by keiirenwalkr

Isolation and Otherness in ITF - by rise-excalibur

On Teddy Bears in ITF - by garykendal 

On Symbolism in Scenery - by punk-kieren-walker

On Rick and Kieren - by punk-kieren-walker

On Kieren and Anxiety - by punk-kieren-walker

Dominic Mitchell on Maxine Martine (via Twitter) - by witchcloak

Dominic Mitchell on Janet Macy S2 (via Twitter) - by pieofthelord

On the way Simon says Kieren’s name just before they kiss - By chasingshhadows (ok it’s not really meta but you need to read it)

Other References

Season 1 Character Ages (script) - by @theundeadsiren

In the Flesh Appreciation Week (Day Five: Favorite Scene)

“Who’s there? Who is it?”
“A zombie! Worse than a zombie!”
What’s worse than a zombie? … Two?
"A drunk zombie!!”

I’m incredibly hard pressed to choose a favorite scene- I’m actually pretty certain the entire series is my favorite scene. I was going to go with Kieren’s rising story scene because I have a serious Kieren Walker problem right now and I can’t seem to shut up about him send help because it’s so powerful, but I think that this particular scene is just as powerful in different ways, and I want to give it a little bit of love.

To understand why I appreciate this scene so much, you have to understand Philip Wilson. Philip is a young man who strove so hard to find a solid place to be in his life. He wanted to be a part of the political leadership of the town because he would be important. His opinion would not only matter, it would be a voice of influence, if not change. When Maxine Martin arrived, he was even willing (or thought he was willing) to compromise his beliefs in right and wrong in order to get there. He came from a place in season one where he was being manipulated by Vicar Oddie, lied to by his mother, and was put into the uncomfortable position of playing peacekeeper at the bar when he had to try to ask Rick and then Kieren/Amy to sit in the back, and then had to sit by while Rick and company basically made fun of him (implying heavily that it had been that way in his childhood, and I’d guess this was partially responsible for Philip’s desire to be in a position of power instead).

In season 1, he met Amy Dyer. She walked through the door of the pub, and he was instantly enamored of her. She’s beautiful, and sassy, and strong, and she doesn’t want listen to a damn word he says (as if he could speak very coherently to her at the time, smitten as he was), but she does so because she doesn’t want to get Kieren kicked out of the pub. She is also, I think, a little vulnerable at this stage.

In the end, he goes home with her that night, and Philip isn’t a mean person. He’s not a bad guy. He’s kind of a coward, in the start here, but he’s not mean. They probably had a lovely time that night, if the state of their undress in the morning is anything to go by.

The thing is, as smitten as Philip is with Amy, the town’s position on “rotters” is very, very clear, and what he just did with Amy - despite how awesome it was and the fact that in a whole year he won’t get over her - could lead to him being demoted or removed from political council, and Philip, for lack of a better word, panics. He says some nasty things which Amy, because she is wounded in that moment, responds to in kind.

They make a complete fucking MESS of themselves.

And then Amy leaves. For a year, she is gone figuring herself out. She attaches to Simon because Simon won’t do what Philip did; he can’t do what Philip did, because Simon, as much as he loves Amy, never loves Amy like that.

Meanwhile in Roarton, Philip just has an absolute Amy meltdown, to the point of hiring an undead sex worker to dress and talk like Amy, and to cuddle and watch movies with him. This later gets him into MAJOR TROUBLE as Maxine Martin tries to blackmail him into compromising his morals rather than having his secret outed.

And just prior to this scene, we see Philip put his foot down. We see this guy who previously such a coward decide that enough is goddam enough. He is through taking Maxine’s shit. He’s through hiding. He’s just DONE. So he tells the town about his sexcapades escapades with the sex worker, in front of Amy no less, and then trots off to get quietly drunk at a bus stop. He has clearly seen Amy there at the protest, walks past her even if I recall correctly, but he has not done this for her. He has done this for him, whether or not she forgives him for what he did. He has no expectation that she will- in fact, I think he accepts that she won’t, and he stands up and does all of it anyway. That’s IMPORTANT to me. It’s important that he didn’t do it to try to win her over; he did it because he realized he’d done something wrong in sitting by and letting injustice happen around him without trying to stop it.

And finally, we have the scene above. We have Amy, who has gone and obtained a bottle of booze out of solidarity. She has witnessed so many things tonight (Kieren and Simon kissing, her own shaking/seizures etc are getting worse, Philip standing up for lots of people including himself, etc) and though she can’t actually be drunk with him, she sits in the bus stop area with him, and injects a little humor into his admittedly terrible situation.

And how does Philip react? Well, he’s certainly not going to make the same mistake twice, that’s for sure. He softly tells Amy that he doesn’t fancy people because they have PDS. He fancies certain people that happen to have PDS… he tells her he fancies… her, actually.

And after all the trauma, all the dreadful things going on in Amy’s life that she’s tried to gloss over, Philip just hands her his heart, knowing quite well that she could decide to do exactly what he did a year ago.

And Amy, being Amy, sits back silently against the bus stop building, and she doesn’t. She does not break his heart. She does not tell him off, she doesn’t yell, she doesn’t bring up the past. She silently accepts his admission, and whatever passes between them in that moment, he is happy to see her again when she shows up at his house later.

I just… This scene is SUCH a huge turning point for them. Watching Philip take his priorities and shift love to the forefront of them… the way Amy treats their respectively tragic days with humor and a certain amount of plainness that strips them of their gravity and makes the burden easier to bear. Finally seeing this old wound have a chance to heal, and for someone to so blatantly offer themselves up to her rather than the other way around…

I love these two a lot, and watching them develop apart has always been a pleasure. Watching them develop together like this is doubly a pleasure, for sure.

I need a season 3 so that Amy can come back for more.

#SaveInTheFlesh bbcthree bbcamerica

anonymous asked:

"A part of me wishes I liked Rick more" OMG you're the only one I know who actually feels that way, too! And I can't actually explain *why* I feel that way; his situation is horrible and *very* realistic, his story was superbly well done and I can perfectly understand his motivations but I'm still kind of uncomfortable with him?

Well, I know you and I aren’t alone, because I’ve had this conversation several times in private. I wasn’t entirely honest when I said I had no idea why I felt that way about him, because I do know, and it’s because he’s violent, and he treated Kieren badly.

When he finds out Kieren is dead, his first gut reaction is to shoot the hell out of that target. When he talks to Kieren about why Kieren is undead, he flies into this short, violent rage where he beats on the dashboard of the car- and judging by the way Kieren assumes the slightly-hunched “just wait until it’s over” posture when that occurs, this isn’t the first time Rick’s reacted like that to something. I hate that. I just hate it, right down to the very core of my being, I hate that reaction and I’m 100% glad Kieren is nowhere near it anymore, especially as it was coming from someone he loved and should have been able to trust to be peaceful around him. I hate thinking about how things might have gone if Rick had lived; I hate thinking that this sort of unreasonable rage might have ever, ever been turned on Kieren someday, but I do think that, and I am incredibly over protective of Kieren Walker.

At the pub, when Gary makes jokes directed at Kieren that are meant to be degrading, Rick just fucking laughs along with them. He doesn’t stand up for Kieren even though he could have. One “cut it out, Gary.” would have been enough to shoot Gary, who is still uncertain about where he is supposed to stand with Bill and Rick right now, down and keep him from teasing Kieren. But no. Rick laughs, and there’s no surprise on Kieren’s face when he does so, which tells me that’s typical.

And I’m sorry, I don’t care how bad of a situation he was in with his father, leaving without telling Kieren he was going, when he had to have known for weeks, is unacceptable to me. He flat-out made a decision about what Kieren could and could not handle, what Kieren did or did not feel, without ever asking. That was both selfish and wrong of him to do. Yeah, that conversation sucks, having to tell someone bad news sucks, I get it, but you fucking do it if you care about them. You don’t abandon them without a word and you definitely don’t do it “for their own good,” which is basically what Rick’s shitty excuse amounted to.

And I get it, I do- I get that he came from a bad situation (a terrible situation, one I would never wish upon anyone), was raised in a bad situation. I get that his father was shitty (unimaginably shitty, and I hate Bill the most out of everyone on the show), and he was scared of his father and conflicted about what to do, and raised to believe things that were shitty, and I feel bad for that, I do.

But there’s a difference between having an understandable past and trying to excuse your current shitty behavior. Yes, I understand his past and feel bad that those things happened to him. No, I do not think it excuses some of his behavior.

You know what would be great, though?

If people sympathized with Maxine and called her misunderstood and woobified her.

You know, like other antagonists.

She’s not a poorly written stereotypical character.

Is the problem really that a black woman was cast as an antagonist with a tragic past (as if fandom doesn’t LOVE this type of character), or is it that fans don’t treat her the way they would if an attractive white male actor got the role?