ITF meta

I’ve been thinking a lot about why the fandom is so much more vocal about Gary hate than they are about, say, Bill Macy, who is imo the most despicable character in the series. 

Apart from the obvious “this fandom doesn’t care enough about Rick Macy” angle, I think it’s because Gary is the less frightening of the two. 

Think about it, what does Gary actually get done? Pretty much nothing. His attack on Amy in S1 is horrible but Amy picks herself up and carries on because she knows she’s better than him; his foul language in the pub backfires spectacularly when he ends up being choked by Simon; as close a call as the Blue Oblivion incident is, Kieren overcomes it. 

At the end of the day, our heroes are stronger than Gary. 

Bill, on the other hand, Bill is destructive. He might not achieve his ultimate goal of goading Kieren into a second suicide, but that doesn’t make the murder of his own son any less horrific. 

Kieren is the only survivor, but he certainly hasn’t won. 

So with Gary, unlike with Bill, we feel safe making joke posts about how much we hate him. We can bring it up all the time because we don’t have to think about the consequences of his actions because really… there aren’t many. But we can’t do the same with Bill because when we think about why we hate him we also have to think about what he did, and no-one really wants to think about that. 

time-turns-kittens-to-cats-deac  asked:

What do you think about how most of Amy's plot arc in s02 is centered around romantic attraction to men? Personally, I can't like Phillip. The whole brothel speech scene was great, but I still find him really creepy and slightly stalker-ish. He met a woman, slept with her and then was suddenly in love with her? That sounds more like infatuation to me. Plus, it's the whole "dorky guy gets gorgeous girl" trope which really pisses me off and is evidence of the show being written by a man. Thoughts?

Oookay, this might take a while, because you’ve managed to fit a lot into a little space. Let’s just take this a little bit at a time (though I’m gonna go out of order to get everything in order). Let’s start with Philip.

He met a woman, slept with her and then was suddenly in love with her? That sounds more like infatuation to me.

This, in my opinion, is out of order. Even without taking the original script into account, I believe that Philip met a woman (Amy), and was as instantly smitten with her as Simon was with Kieren. Yes, she is beautiful, but during their first encounter she is also bold and different and when he, acting as a member of the parish council (a position he values and sees as Important, much the same as Simon sees his position as Disciple as important and good), pushes her, she makes it very clear that she is not impressed (much the same way as Kieren does when he meets Simon). In fact, in my consideration, the only reason she bends to Philip’s will at all in that moment at the pub is because she doesn’t want to get Kieren kicked out before he can reunite with Rick (which is the whole point of them being there).

Now take into consideration what happens after Kieren and Rick reunite. Amy is stuck there with Kieren, Rick, Gary, and Philip. It’s clear that Philip is on a different page than the rest of them; he sits apart from them, something even Amy is not made to do. When Rick does talk to Philip, it is to remind Philip of a time he was injured participating in their (most likely) stupid shenanigans (most likely trying to fit in/be cool when in reality Rick and co were probably more interested in making fun of him, all things considered). Then… then Dean enters, and Bill, Rick, Gary, Dean, and Kieren are dragged off, leaving Amy and Philip alone together in the pub.

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isn’t it interesting how Simon came to his parents’ house in the night of the rising?

like, Simon probably haven’t lived with his mum and dad for years, he was a junkie so we can assume that he was kicked from the house and/or they didn’t want to see him. and as far as i understand, zombies’ actions are not motivated by logical thinking. they’re driven by their instinct. what if Simon had this hidden urge to finally come home, reunite with his parents? what if this house was the only where he felt at least a little bit less miserable? what if this urge was so strong that it pushed him to go there when he was dead, when there was no boundaries or rules for him

it’s like he was only waiting to finally come home. i am nOT CRYING YOU ARE CRYING

just in case in the flesh s3 doesn’t get picked up, which it probably will be so no worries what do you mean denial??? you’re in denial!, i’ve decided to make a list of things that is 100% likely to happen in it (trust me, it’s science):

  • lisa comes back and she and jem become girlfriends
  • amy is 100 % okay and comes back and goes on to live a long and happy life surrounded by people who love her
  • everything with the undead prophet/the ula works itself out and kieren and simon move to paris! 
  • kieren paints a lot of portraits of simon + wears his ridiculous jumpers 
  • simon plays the guitar and sings softly to kieren when he can’t sleep
  • gary falls into a ditch or something

not-much-rhymes-with-emma  asked:

Adding a point to your 'Simon staying in Amy's bungalow' meta; at the end of the script for ep 6 there's a scene where Julian goes to the bungalow and waits for Simon to return with a nasty array of bone cutters. As this didn't make the final episode there's a chance this may come up at the start of next season instead. How do you think that sort of situation would pan out?

I don’t remember if I got this last night or the night before because I went into this tailspin of excitement/worry because I haven’t made it that far into the scripts (i’m reading them as we do the podcasts, actually) and this is major.

I went and read the scene (I read the scene like 15 times and made a lot of inhuman noises and then went and set up a protective barricade around Simon, geezus) and I must say… I really hope this IS how S3 starts. I want to pick up S3 right where S2 is leaving off because we’ll get to see how it all pans out.

As for this particular scene? It really depends on if Simon arrives home alone or not.

If Kieren accompanies him back to the bungalow at this point, then the situation could get ugly really fast, but I think that it would be better for Simon in the long run. Because there’s no way Julian doesn’t go for Kieren when he realizes that Simon brought the First right to him (because remember Julian doesn’t know Kieren’s not the First). And of course, Simon would have absolutely none of that; he would definitely best Julian in a fight if it was to protect Kieren.

However, if Simon returns alone… I can see Julian besting him in a fight because Simon doesn’t want to hurt Julian. Julian saved him. Simon owes Julian a lot, friendship at least, and Simon is probably still going to be fighting the guilt of letting down the ULA/Prophet/other undead who were counting on him to start the Second Rising and be their salvation.

But, if Simon is alone, I suspect he would be able to talk his way out of being killed by Julian. You know… ‘no, no, Julian, wait, it wasn’t him, it wasn’t Kieren, I was wrong. He’s not the First’ or something to that effect. I don’t know whether Simon would necessarily try to show he was on the same side as Julian, because that can get into tricky territory for Simon, but there are definitely verbal paths out of being killed, I think. Especially if he convinces Julian that Kieren wasn’t the First, that he didn’t fail or betray them, he was just wrong.

So, I dunno. I definitely don’t think that Julian would kill Simon. I mean I think that he WOULD kill Simon, of course he would, but storyline wise, I don’t see that being the path the story would take. But I’d be very interested to see Simon’s reaction to seeing Julian willing and ready to kill him (and apparently saw him into pieces?? JULIAN NO). I think it’d only cement Simon’s decision to turn away from the ULA.

3

I think this moment in the scene is overlooked because it’s rather subtle.

When they walk up to the GP Surgery, Simon is well behind Kieren, letting him lead their way (as will become typical).

Upon entering, Simon is looking at Kieren (first pic) for cues.

When Dr. Russo calls Kieren’s name, Simon’s attention switches to Dr. Russo and his expression hardens (second pic). Whatever Kieren thinks of this situation, Simon distrusts medical personnel (and with good reason, considering his horrific experiences with them, ESPECIALLY the ones involved with the care of PDS patients).

Simon’s reaction to Dr. Russo approaching Kieren is to move from behind Kieren to in front of Kieren, and stop moving (third pic, though it’s easier to see when they are in motion).

He doesn’t place his body between Kieren and Russo, he’s not blocking anyone from interacting or stopping Kieren from doing anything he wants to do… but he HAS placed himself in such a manner that Russo has to keep his distance from Kieren or else be weirdly in Simon’s personal space. Simon has also placed himself into a position to defend Kieren in an instant if needed, and his gaze is placed off to the side of Russo in such a way that suggests Russo doesn’t need to worry about him because he isn’t even paying attention to Russo. In fact, the rest of his body language suggests his mind’s attention is 100% on Russo.

I love, lovelovelove, this facet of Simon. He trusts Kieren to take care of himself, doesn’t restrict him from doing anything he wants to do, but Simon places himself in a position to step in if he’s needed. 

I like to suppose that when the undead rehumanize, they are healed of the injuries that would kill them (like Amy’s leukemia, or Simon’s spine wound, or Kieren’s forearm wounds).

I also like to suppose that the bullet Simon took for Kieren didn’t come out the other side (considering it didn’t hit Kieren, so it must still be in him) and that Simon will have to get it removed when he rehumanizes.

I like to suppose that the only scar Simon has left is the thin, stitched line left behind by doctors in the city after they took out that bullet, and that it reminds him that there are things in the world worth dying for and they aren’t the things that got him the first go ‘round.

Additionally, I like to imagine that Simon keeps that bullet somewhere safe, and takes it out and turns it over in his hands, and sometimes Kieren comes and sits next to him and he knows what the bullet is and what it means to Simon (and what it means to him), but he just leans against Simon’s arm and doesn’t say a word.

And I like to believe that, someday, Simon takes the bullet down to a jeweler and gets it crafted into a ring that he uses to propose to Kieren.

Because really, what’s better than the thing that almost took Kieren from Simon being the thing that symbolizes Kieren will stay with him?

anonymous asked:

I wanted to ask the super general question of what you like about Simon and Kieren's relationship. Is there something specific you enjoy about it or is it the whole thing or did it evolve (or something idk I'm bad at asking questions but I'd really like to know /0\)?

Okay I was going to answer this dayyyys ago when Greenberg did, but then I realized this is basically going to be a novel because you are, surprisingly, the very first person to ask me this so you’re going to get the full novel. So grab some tea, have a seat, and get comfortable.

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anonymous asked:

This may seem like of weird but it's always something that's kept me wondering about ITF because I don't know if it's an intentional move or not? An underlying theme is race/racism right? So why is there not more diversity in the cast? Is it because the undead are just a blank slate you could fit any injustice in the world on?

Well, Anon, here’s the thing- you’re making at least three assumptions here, one of which is wrong, one of which is right and wrong, and one of which is right. There’s a lot of explaining that goes into each of those things, so I’m going to do my best to explain what I’ve learned since trying to learn more about this, but I’m also gonna say up front I’m still nowhere close to being an expert with this.

So, the first assumption you are making, the one that is both right and wrong, is that an underlying theme is racism. This is correct, in that it is one of the possible forms of discrimination for which the whole undead situation is an allegory. However, it is also incorrect in that it isn’t The Theme, it is not the only theme or only form of discrimination that could be/is being/is intended to be represented here. I think one of the most powerful facets of ITF’s composition is that the viewer is free to see The Theme as they see fit.

You, for instance, may have watched this show and taken away that the undead situation most prominently represents discrimination against race. I watched the show and took away that the undead situation most prominently represents discrimination against mental illness/differences. My boyfriend watched this show and asked me “Is it still an allegory for discrimination against sexuality if the zombies are actually gay?” (so he was, I assume, taking away that the undead situation most prominently represents discrimination against different sexualities). I have seen others mention forms of discrimination that include things like religion, physical illness (HIV/AIDS, for example), and the like.

So, in that regard, your last assumption, that the undead are “a blank slate you could fit any injustice in the world on” is correct. I think that this is absolutely not a coincidence and is, in fact, the whole point. Everyone can, in some way, relate to this situation.

As for the final assumption (“why is there not more diversity in the cast,” which implies that there is not diversity in the cast), I was initially under this impression myself. What I learned, from the many people who messaged me and took a lot more time than they owed me to explain things (for which I’m very grateful, let’s see if I learned anything), is that the American perception of racial/ethnic diversity is actually vastly different than the British perception of racial/ethnic diversity because the types of discrimination that happen in England are vastly different than the types that happen in America.

The way that I understand it (fingers crossed that I DO understand it) is that when Americans see “minority” discrimination, it is often based on (or viewed as being based on) skin color (which is, I am aware, a very, very broad explanation). Whereas, in England the “minority” discrimination is more often based on ethnicity/culture/status (immigration status as well as financial status, I think?).

A really simple explanation that stuck with me and (I think) helped me to understand it is that, for instance, there are families of people who have been living in England for centuries that are well-off, and may happen to have a different skin color, but these families, because they have been there for so long, are not really looked down upon/discriminated against as outsiders or “minority” in the way Americans think of it. On the other side of that coin, you can have a person who has white skin but has newly immigrated to England from certain places (like maybe Ireland? or folks like the Romani?) and that person may face heavy discrimination because of their status as an immigrant. During my discussions last week, I was informed by more than one person that grouping people into “white” and “POC” outside of the American culture (and even a lot of times in our culture, but that’s another story… I was directed to a really good article about that here actually) really erases a lot of culture and struggles going on for various peoples by lumping them all together into groups that do not accurately represent them. It’s… well, taking away their representation, which is kind of the exact opposite of what the good intention was at the start, ie: to get more representation.

That’s really super simplified, and there are SO MANY other things that go along with it but I honestly believe that if I tried to get any more complex I would end up making a mess of it, so I’ll stop there for now.

What I’m trying to say, overall, is that when an American looks at ITF and the cast, we are seeing things through an American lense and we may not see the “minority” representation we are… hm, accustomed to, or desire to see, or maybe even expect (ie, we may look for skin color and when we don’t see it, or don’t see as much as we desire, we automatically assume a facet of minority representation isn’t happening). However, I’m told that looking through the cultural lense of the people living in that particular community area is a different story, and that ITF is actually doing decently in the department of representation of ethnic minorities.

If I recall correctly, the criticism I did see for it was that Lancashire (I think? gosh i don’t remember the county name and I can’t find the ask rn, so my apologies for that. I was right! Here’s a useful census page sent by one of the people that helped me) has a large population of south Asian people, and that including someone of this descent would possibly bring representation even closer to home/reality.

So, this got long again, but I hope that it answers, or starts to answer anyway, your questions!

anonymous asked:

"A part of me wishes I liked Rick more" OMG you're the only one I know who actually feels that way, too! And I can't actually explain *why* I feel that way; his situation is horrible and *very* realistic, his story was superbly well done and I can perfectly understand his motivations but I'm still kind of uncomfortable with him?

Well, I know you and I aren’t alone, because I’ve had this conversation several times in private. I wasn’t entirely honest when I said I had no idea why I felt that way about him, because I do know, and it’s because he’s violent, and he treated Kieren badly.

When he finds out Kieren is dead, his first gut reaction is to shoot the hell out of that target. When he talks to Kieren about why Kieren is undead, he flies into this short, violent rage where he beats on the dashboard of the car- and judging by the way Kieren assumes the slightly-hunched “just wait until it’s over” posture when that occurs, this isn’t the first time Rick’s reacted like that to something. I hate that. I just hate it, right down to the very core of my being, I hate that reaction and I’m 100% glad Kieren is nowhere near it anymore, especially as it was coming from someone he loved and should have been able to trust to be peaceful around him. I hate thinking about how things might have gone if Rick had lived; I hate thinking that this sort of unreasonable rage might have ever, ever been turned on Kieren someday, but I do think that, and I am incredibly over protective of Kieren Walker.

At the pub, when Gary makes jokes directed at Kieren that are meant to be degrading, Rick just fucking laughs along with them. He doesn’t stand up for Kieren even though he could have. One “cut it out, Gary.” would have been enough to shoot Gary, who is still uncertain about where he is supposed to stand with Bill and Rick right now, down and keep him from teasing Kieren. But no. Rick laughs, and there’s no surprise on Kieren’s face when he does so, which tells me that’s typical.

And I’m sorry, I don’t care how bad of a situation he was in with his father, leaving without telling Kieren he was going, when he had to have known for weeks, is unacceptable to me. He flat-out made a decision about what Kieren could and could not handle, what Kieren did or did not feel, without ever asking. That was both selfish and wrong of him to do. Yeah, that conversation sucks, having to tell someone bad news sucks, I get it, but you fucking do it if you care about them. You don’t abandon them without a word and you definitely don’t do it “for their own good,” which is basically what Rick’s shitty excuse amounted to.

And I get it, I do- I get that he came from a bad situation (a terrible situation, one I would never wish upon anyone), was raised in a bad situation. I get that his father was shitty (unimaginably shitty, and I hate Bill the most out of everyone on the show), and he was scared of his father and conflicted about what to do, and raised to believe things that were shitty, and I feel bad for that, I do.

But there’s a difference between having an understandable past and trying to excuse your current shitty behavior. Yes, I understand his past and feel bad that those things happened to him. No, I do not think it excuses some of his behavior.

You know what would be great, though?

If people sympathized with Maxine and called her misunderstood and woobified her.

You know, like other antagonists.

She’s not a poorly written stereotypical character.

Is the problem really that a black woman was cast as an antagonist with a tragic past (as if fandom doesn’t LOVE this type of character), or is it that fans don’t treat her the way they would if an attractive white male actor got the role?

Predicition: Connie Furness is the first risen

Reasons why I believe it:

  • Sandra was not willing to share the night of the rising. Something happened. Something important. 
  • Connie is the most prominent tertiary character, always visible on the periphery but never with clear focus. Nonetheless, the audience knows her, without actually knowing much about her.
  • No backstory is given. No one is even asking her. 
  • Connie lives in the same house as Maxime. Maybe Connie is aware of her intentions, so she is hiding very cleverly in plain sight.
  • She seems to be the oldest zombie in Roarten. Might be a reason. 
  • Connie is absent from both the ULA and Maxime. 

Finally, it would be a great surprise for the audience, as everyone is expecting Kieren which I still believe is a red herring. 

trypie5  asked:

So i recently finished watching In The Flesh and I'm still trying to figure out how I feel about somethings. So to help me I was wondering what you would say about what made Kieren decide to stop wearing makeup/contacts. Like obvious he thought that what happened at "the lunch" it was unfair, but it just doesn't make sense to me. Hopefully that wasn't too confusing, thanks :)

Hello there! I would be tickled to attempt to help sort some of those feelings out with you! I have a lot of feels about Kieren taking off his mousse, so if we get lost in them, at least we are in good company!

Kieren taking off his mousse doesn’t start at his family lunch, even though it seems like that is the case. Kieren taking off his mousse starts… well, it starts the moment - the ONLY moment - Kieren is openly impressed with Simon. That small, short moment, when Kieren finds a handsome… hot… striking guy perched atop his gravestone, a guy who is decidedly unimpressed with the cover up mousse and contacts Kieren wears, as well as the epitaph on his headstone, a guy who immediately recites a bit of beautiful poetry the moment Kieren suggests he would have preferred poetry. For that little, bitty moment, Kieren sees Simon; a proud, undead man with a soft, dry wit,  a patient, careful demeanor, and a taste for artful words. The guy he meets in that moment is a guy that piques Kieren’s interest, someone Kieren wants to be around (and arguably, someone Kieren wants to be a match for in terms of strength of character and as a person, not necessarily a love match).

This illusion is shattered quite forcibly in the next moment, when Amy arrives to announce Simon is not only a member of the ULA, but the 12th disciple of the Undead Prophet. In Kieren’s words: “Not ideal.”

However, this is also the man who brought Amy back to Roarton. This is the man who, after what Gary did to Amy, played a part in her return to her proud, beautiful “au naturale” appearance. This is the man who stands in front of Kieren and starts plucking at Kieren’s chords, saying all the things Kieren has worked to forget, about how he shouldn’t have to run, how he should be able to live here openly, how he should be able to be himself, etc. Those are all things Kieren feels (and probably feels doubly so, as these are the same things affecting his first life), and Simon isn’t letting them stay buried. He finds Kieren’s buttons, and presses them like an obnoxious, suave, terrible-sweater-wearing child.

And he doesn’t stop. The next time Kieren sees Simon is when Amy and Simon arrive at the Legion to make a point. Now, originally when I watched this scene, I thought that Simon and Amy where there to test the townsfolk, and I still believe that is why Amy went. But not Simon. Simon knew Kieren would be there, and that entire display was ONLY about pressing Kieren’s buttons, to try to get him to see that the cover-up he’s applied to his view of the entire town is just that- a lie. Below the surface, the town is a different creature than the one Kieren is pretending it is. In that entire exchange, Simon says only one word- Kieren’s name. The rest of the time, he watches Kieren. They enter and he watches Kieren’s reaction (which is basically >:| no, simon. bad simon. what have you done, simon. I’m not up for this bullshit tonight, simon.), he seats himself and lets the world react around him. When Gary starts in on them, Simon simply raises his eyebrows at Kieren, who is glaring MIGHTY daggers at him by then. Simon has got his thumb on Kieren’s buttons, and those eyebrows are saying “I’ll follow your lead, Kieren. What are you going to do, Kieren? You told me this place had moved on, Kieren. Ready to admit I was right, Kieren?”

Which, of course, Kieren gets angry about. He doesn’t like being put into this position. He had thought he was FINE just pretending to get along here, and that if he moved elsewhere everything would be better, and now he’s being put on the spot by both Simon and Gary, and if he has to choose a side to lash out at, Gary’s had the longer run of it. And that moment, the one where he stands up to Gary and tells him to get out, is the first phase of taking off his cover-up. That’s the first instance where Kieren yields to Simon’s button pushing and agrees that something is wrong. He doesn’t like it, he’s very pissed about it, but he does agree.

After that, it’s just one thing after another, to be honest. Kieren is, as Jem says and as we see, gentle. He doesn’t want to fight. There is an amount of shit he’s willing to take to keep things cool, keep from having to fight. There’s an amount of being a scapegoat, getting walked upon by others, that Kieren is willing to take, but we watch throughout the season as everything around Kieren starts scratching at that tolerance threshold.

We see Kieren get blocked from escaping to where he thinks it will be better for him. We see a member of Victus start taking over his town’s council. We see the PDS Give-Back Scheme start up, and we see both Simon and Amy protest it or outright refuse it. We see Simon turning up and, once again, getting between Gary and Kieren, when Gary starts to get pissy about them taking a break. We see Kieren resigning himself to the Give-Back work, because it’s only 6 months (okay, only 6 months, Kieren tells himself. I can put up with this that long if it means getting away at the end) and then we see Simon turn up and press the button that shatters that illusion as well. We see Kieren and Simon bickering in the hospital, where Kieren sees that the rabids are being mistreated (even if he’s unconvinced the treatment center is bad). We see Kieren’s dad getting a little weird about him and Amy and the ULA, in particular we see Kieren have a moment of panic when his dad admits he doesn’t think Kieren killed anyone when Kieren knows he did.

We see Kieren stressing out because Simon is trying to find some way to connect, and Kieren doesn’t want to be a part of the cult, and then Simon does The Thing. He does the thing no one else is doing; he puts Kieren first. He tells Kieren “Yes, here is the most important thing in my life right now, and if you want nothing to do with it that’s fine. You’re important enough to set that aside. Whatever you want, that’s what we’ll do. Okay?”

We see Kieren accept that, and the request he makes is for Simon to join Kieren’s world (as opposed to Kieren joining Simon’s, which he has so far refused to do— this is important for later). And Simon does it, no questions, no fight. He puts on cover up and puts in his contacts - something he is entirely against - because that is the what Kieren asked of him. And they both know how big of a deal it is, which is (imo) the reason Kieren chose this thing… and even so, when Kieren thanks him for it, Simon says “it’s okay” like it’s not a big deal. Like it’s just natural for him to yield to Kieren in this respect… like it’s reflex.

And finally, finally, we arrive at that lunch. At this point, Kieren is under so much outside pressure from the town’s happenings and so much inside pressure has built up from everything he feels, that he is ready to break. He is holding it together remarkably well, because he thinks that he is about to make progress in lessening it.

Because look. Here is Simon, a ULA leader, sitting peacefully at the table with his father (who you remember was tense over the ULA). Simon may be able to allay some of Steve’s fears by being… well, Simon. Sue will feel better about Kieren having friends. Simon may see that wearing cover-up isn’t the Terrible, Awful, Very-bad, No Good thing Simon’s made it out to be, that it can really ease tensions between the living and the undead (and maybe Simon will stop pressing Kieren’s buttons about it, wouldn’t that be nice). I honestly think that Kieren went into this lunch expecting that it would help to start heal things that were causing him problems.

What happens is that Gary turns up and tosses a big fucking wrench into the thing. He and Jem come in wearing RPS (HVF) uniforms, and Gary immediately sets about being rude in multiple ways (I personally am ENRAGED over how he ignored his host’s requests to shut the fuck up, it’s possible I’m even more angry about this than I am about what he says). He doesn’t even realize, I think, how hard he is pressing on an overstressed Kieren, and none of them are ready for the way Kieren snaps.

Because he does snap. He is nonviolent, as is true to his character, but he does snap. He is tired of being treated as less than human. He is tired of hiding, and tired of playing along like it’s okay. Sweet, gentle, docile Kieren is sick of seeing Gary (amongst others) get praise for literally murdering people. He is sick of the deaths and plights of the undead being treated as a joke. And the very last people who should be in support of those things happening - his family - let this guy into the house and clearly aren’t going to put their foot down to stop it.

And Kieren takes another layer of cover-up off at the table. He reveals to his parents that he DID kill people, he killed them and ripped them apart and ate them like the predator he is. He tells Gary in no uncertain terms that while Gary is a hunter, Kieren was a hunter, too, and his prey was Gary’s species. Kieren’s hunt wasn’t self defense; Kieren’s hunt was a hunger for blood, a drive to seek out and consume people like Gary. And with Simon, who easily defeated Gary in a physical match, sitting docile at Kieren’s side, I’m sure Gary got the message. You may have killed us, but I killed you too. Keep pressing and find out if I’m still capable.

The major kicker here, is that Kieren gets no backup. Not from anyone, not even Simon (because Simon’s too busy having a crisis of his own). His father outright tells him that he doesn’t have a space to speak, when he was unwilling to put his foot down about Gary telling the same sort of story. It’s the last straw.

Simon was right, Kieren realizes in that moment. Simon was right all along. Things aren’t better here. Things won’t get better as long as Kieren is only pretending. Kieren still feels all the same things he felt when he met Simon - that he shouldn’t have to hide, that he shouldn’t have to be ashamed of existing, that he shouldn’t have to be driven from his home, that he should be able to live like a normal human being if he wants - except the events of the interim between meeting Simon and having this lunch have told Kieren that nothing will change unless he stops pretending.

And that, my dear, is why Kieren takes off the mousse then. Because he has spent the last 4 episodes taking off the cover-up he’d applied to his life, and the last step was wiping his face clean of the pressure the living put on him to appear like one of them. He’s not one of them; they have made that abundantly clear to him.

He takes off the mousse then because he is ready to stand up for himself and the first step is standing up to himself, and the first step toward that is accepting himself for who he really is.

Plot mistake or deliberate?!

                                                 KIEREN

                                But all of a sudden something’s
                               different, you feel the wind on the
                                tips of your fingers. And the rain.

Okay, I currently rewatched S2x4 (which is still an amazing episode and the dinner scene deserves all the awards!). However I noticed this part of Kieren’s speech. Which confuses me…:

We know PDS sufferers cannot feel anything (which TBH, is in my my opinion not the smartest idea in general, as it only leads to confusion). BUT Kieren felt the wind and the rain during the rising.

One episode later, the rain is used to show Amy is turning human again. It is a big, emotional, intense moment. But for all intense and purposes, Kieren either should not have felt the rain during his rising OR Amy should not be surprised to feel it in the tent scene.

As both scenarios are talked/shown in two follow-up episodes, it cannot be a mistake. Or if it is a mistake, it is a rather glaring one. 

So what does this mean? What is the purpose of this tiny dialogue? Kieren is showing the same symptoms as Amy at the end of S2. Is he turning human again? (I really do not hope so!) Are they turning into something else? Do they actually become a “superior human race”?! 

Any ideas?!

I’ve seen a few people debating what to make of Amy’s “I know you’re not like that” line. Here’s what I think:

We’ve seen basically every conversation Amy and Kieren have ever had up to that point. He’s never mentioned his sexual orientation to her, but it was obvious he was into Rick. Amy probably assumed from that that he was gay, because, well, for one thing, a lot of people forget that orientations other than gay and straight exist. But also, Amy has (or at least had) a crush on Kieren. The script for episode 1x03 says she would have rather gone home with Kieren than with Philip. So that probably further cemented her assumption that Kieren’s gay, because if he isn’t…well, that would mean he chose Rick over her. And that hurts. 

As for why Kieren didn’t correct her…first of all, it was loud at that rave, and he seemed kind of overwhelmed. And right after that was when his thing with Simon started. So what could he have said to Amy then? “Actually, I’m not gay, I’m attracted to women too, just not you. Also, I kissed your boyfriend.”? Somehow, I don’t think that would have gone over well! It was easier for everyone involved for Kieren to just keep letting Amy think he’s gay.

So I don’t see that line as the writers erasing Kieren’s orientation, so much as showing that, even though Amy and Kieren are close and have known each other for a long time, there’s still a lot they don’t know about each other, and things they hide from each other. And that, at least at that point in his character development, Kieren would rather lie by omission than upset his loved ones.

anonymous asked:

the second rising is actually just the risen's bodies healing so they can feel, touch, hurt, and eat again. their bodies are returning to the way they were prior to death. this was confirmed by dominic mitchell in an interview.

okay so upon hearing this i have just come up with a very good theory about rising and the first risen okay hear me out

so I know that all the of first to rise were meant to be in roarton but we don’t necessarily know that - it’s just what was rumoured/said in the pds community. so if the second rising was meant to be all of the pds sufferers coming back to life amy would be the first second risen (which wouldn’t be contradicting anything confirmed by dom because he said she was the first risen but didnt specify in which rising) meaning that the first to rise originally had already died (again) or been killed. this technically could be any pds sufferer (like i said before, it was never actually a fact that the first risen was from roarton) but i’d guess its someone we already know (unless some new character was going to be introduced which is unlikely since they have to be dead) so who does that point to? rick. 

rick could still be called the first risen from roarton - just not risen in roarton. and it would really fit what happened.

the first risen had to die to trigger the second rising of the risen’s bodies healing: rick could be a completely undocumented first risen because he he died while missing in action (hence how they (the army, janet and bill) only knew where he was when he was found rabid) and people would have found him with his head blown open but going about trying to eat people and sewn him up and gotten him treated. there would be no way of knowing at what time his limp body suddenly came back to (sort of) life.

then bill kills rick and about a year later pds sufferers begin to come back to life.

(this last part is going off on a tangent) you know that theory about how the symptoms amy experienced when coming back to life were the same as the symptoms of going rabid which could mean the scientists wanted to keep track of who was coming back to life and when? yeah so what if neurotriptyline was the scientists’ way of prolonging the period of time between the first rising and the second because they wanted to look into the pds sufferers conditions more and maybe figure out how to properly bring back the dead. so possibly the second rising theories made by the prophet and pds sufferers were bullshit and nothing at all triggered it apart from the increasing rejection of administered neurotriptyline in certain pds sufferers.

basically, either way, everything that happened to do with the rising and what has happened since was probably all a risky scientific experiment.

greenchesedragon  asked:

Hi! So I have recdntly finished watching In the Flesh. love it! Anyways that is beside the point, sooooo I know that Simon is madly in love with Kieren (and I totally ship them) but if it weren't for the things Simon said and Kieren's intamacy I wouldn't have seen them as two people in love. So essentially my question is- can you explain to me how Simon falls for him in the first place and how their feelings develop and how they show it because I see it but I don't See it

Hiii! Sorry for the late reply ^__^”

Okay wow, I am flattered that you thought I have enough knowledge of the show to actually explain things about it! Thank you so much! I will try my best to express my point of view :) 

I have to say that the first time I watched the show I didn’t really get it either. I mean I did see it, but not really. And then I watched the show again and again and again like a million times and I started to see things differently. I empathise deeply with the characters I love, so that helps, I guess. The way I see it, Simon and Kieren are not really madly in love. I mean, of course they love each other deeply, but there’s nothing mad about it - it’s not a “let’s spend the rest of our forevers together, get married, start a family, live happily ever after” kind of love. Their feelings are deeper than that. I think, in a way, they saved each other. They both had their ideas and convictions about the world and how it is towards people like them, and they both thought they would have to change things in order to finally be okay. To really understand them and their relationship I think we need to understand them individually, and to do that we need to understand their past.

Keep reading

anonymous asked:

If simon cared so much about kieran why didn't he intervene when Gary was shoving a tied up kieran into a truck?

Honestly? Because Simon was being a coward.

As shitty as the situation is in Roarton with the PDS sufferers, as shitty a human being as Gary is, Kieren is alive. As Gary tied him up, he’s probably not looking to kill Kieren and there’s no way Simon knew that Kieren or Gary had obtained any blue oblivion. It looks like Kieren is being arrested (or something) forcibly… but remember what Simon is there for.

Simon is there to kill Kieren.

You have to remember that Simon was ordered to kill Kieren by the guy/organization which saved him. The ULA gave him a home when he had nowhere to go. They showed him love when no one else would. They took care of him and they gave him a place in the world, and they taught him to believe things would get better (when he’d spent his entire first life thinking the only better was for it to end).

Then he finds this beautiful soul, this kind, gentle, no-nonsense guy and he trips over himself to get closer, and Kieren lets him in despite the horrible things Kieren has been through. Kieren demands to be separated from this wonderful thing Simon is a part of, and Simon attempts to convince him otherwise but when Kieren doesn’t budge, he separates Kieren and the ULA.

The problem is that when he tells the ULA (the prophet) about Kieren, thinking that Kieren is special, thinking that Kieren will finally accept the ULA once he finds out how special he is and how much he will be able to do to save people (kieren likes saving people, after all)… only to have the prophet order him to kill Kieren.

This order literally sends Simon into an emotional tailspin, an anxiety attack that takes him back to all the awful things he experienced before the ULA. He forces himself to remember all that the ULA saved him from, all that he OWES the ULA. He eventually resolves that he must put the needs of all these other people before his own, and returns to Roarton.

But the thing is… he gets there, he goes to Kieren’s house… and he sees Gary going in, and returning dragging Kieren. Gary may be roughing Kieren up, may have bound him and may be carting him off, but Kieren is safer with Gary than with Simon in that moment.

Because Simon? Simon thinks he has to kill Kieren if he can get close enough. He has to. He owes too much.

But if Gary has Kieren, and Simon can’t get to Kieren in time… well, oops! Too bad. Sorry, I couldn’t kill Kieren because I was unable to get to him. Sorry I went to kill Kieren and he wasn’t home.

As long as Gary has Kieren, Simon can plausibly excuse himself for not killing Kieren. If the First must be killed at a specific time, all Simon has to do is accidentally keep Kieren alive until after that. The ULA might turn their backs on him if he outright refused to follow the order, but if he “did his best” and failed, well, then maybe they won’t. Simon, at this point, still thinks he can keep both Kieren and the ULA, somehow.

The important thing is that when Simon was forced to choose one or the other… he chose Kieren.

there’s probably a really simple answer to this but I’m dumb and I’ve been thinking about this for literally months

so since the rising it’s common knowledge that everyone who is pds can only be killed by something going in/through their brain, so why did maxine stab amy in the heart instead of her head?

because the only people who knew that amy was alive at that point were the people at the fete (and even they might not have realised properly) and philip. maxine wasn’t there and was stalking about in the graveyard.

if maxine was trying to kill amy she would not have known she was alive yet and logically she should have tried to stab her in the head and not the heart ???

all I can think is that she overheard amy and philip talking about how she’s alive but I doubt that

does anyone know anything about it?

anonymous asked:

What's your take on the fact that Simon "came home" while he was rabid? Everything else we learned about rabids indicated that they don't really have the kind of higher cognitive function to even recognize their loved ones, let alone remember where they live and go there.

You know, I’m not 100% sure that everything we’ve learned indicates they don’t have higher cognitive function. I think we’d be treading into “doesn’t think like a human/normal human so doesn’t think at all” territory.

I personally see a lot of indication that the rabids (I prefer “feral” to rabid just because rabies is a disease and I don’t think the unmedicated zombies are diseased, they are just… wild? but we’ll stay with rabid for now) are thinking creatures.

Let’s take the first instance we see- Kieren and Amy. By Kieren’s admission in episode 1, they hunted together. They joined up, into a two-person pack, and they hunted down prey together and, perhaps more important, shared in the eating of the prey. This indicates, to me, a level of thought. In a world where human brains are a potentially limited and/or very dangerous commodity to acquire, the act of sharing a kill would suggest that they are interested in more than just staying alive (which, if you recall, is what Julian tells us is the sole purpose of human life… just trying to stay alive as long as possible). We can also assume that, as Amy and Kieren are both seen rising from the grave during the same time period, that they were together from the start, meaning that some kind of bond was formed so that they did not wander off with another of their kind instead.

Let’s take another instance; we see in Kieren’s flashbacks that he turns and sees Jem standing behind him. She has her gun out, which is a very threatening display, and yet… both she and Kieren survive the encounter. Kieren, who is (as we saw earlier in he flashback) an adept hunter of the living and who is accompanied by a second adept hunter of the living (Amy), appears to recognize Jem. At the very least, we see no indication that he attacked her, and she gives no indication in all of her yelling at him, that he attacked her. This leads me to believe that he did, in fact, recognize her on some level, and did not attack her as he might have attacked another living.

And then there’s those two rabids in the woods in episode 2, the father and the daughter. The father had killed (and moved) a sheep to the Den where his daughter was. A mindless creature bent on killing and eating would have killed and eaten the sheep on the spot. Instead, we see another instance where a rabid zombie is acting as a predator; he made a kill and brought it back for his young to ensure the child’s survival. When Dean attacks the girl, the father then attacks him - however, it is of note that Dean made it back to the town alive and well after encountering the father rabid. And I don’t mean “spotted him a distance away” I mean that rabid was RIGHT THERE lording over Dean in the mud. He could have killed Dean, and he didn’t. He chose the sheep instead. He didn’t attack Dean until Dean threatened his child, and afterward he shielded the child with his own body while they were in the net. That doesn’t speak of mindlessness to me.

Then we also have the fact that they recognize their own. We see so many instances of this, every time Kieren rubs off makeup and takes out a contact. When Simon reaches fingers through the bars of the cage in the hospital and plays undead-whisperer. When Zoe and Brian release those rabids from the hospital later and she says “we’re like you!” she is clearly speaking like she knows this will have an effect.

What I think we are seeing is that the rabids are functioning on a level where they have become a species of predators. They are not “rabid” or diseased humans. They are feral predators and they just don’t see humans as… well, equals. Humans are food, they are prey.

So to answer your original question, my take on Simon “going home” is that I see no reason why he wouldn’t. Kieren stayed near his home (he was picked up in the town’s supermarket, so he didn’t go far). There’s a good chance that Simon woke up, rose, and started moving toward where it felt right to go (home), and when he arrived he was probably ravenous (Kieren, when he encountered Jem, had probably been feeding with Amy that day), and there was practically willing prey (because I can only imagine his mother came right to him when she saw him, she was his damn mom, and I believe she loved him). If he was close enough to come home the actual night of the Rising (which his father seems to indicate was the case), then there wouldn’t have been enough warning to say “hey your dead loved ones might come knocking, DO NOT LET THEM IN THEY WILL EAT YOUR BRAINS.” Simon’s father probably caught him at it and chased him off, and that was that.

And that’s about what I think of it. Poor Simon. Every time I think about him I just get sadder for him :|