youtube

When you’re not only wrong, but also citing the equivalent of an Onion Article to prove your point

I keep seeing people making claims that Grant Ward is a Nazi.

And using this as a justification to verbally abuse and harass anybody showing even a remote interest in the character in yet another round of tumblr-type purity wank.

And of all the sources that they might try to use to back up their point, they’re citing this one.

OH.MY.

O.k…..all of you sweet summer children who believe that this proves their point, gather ‘round, because it’s obvious that your teachers failed you, and I’m going to do something for your education.

For that matter, if you ever attempt to get a college degree and if you would like to work in a field that requires a minimum of scientific literacy, all of you badly need to brush up on your logical thinking skills, otherwise you’re going to end up embarrassing yourselves and your colleagues.

So, for starters, if you have a hypothesis that you’d like to prove and you have a source (in this case Skye / Daisy) who claims to have relevant data, you need to take a look at that source and judge their reliability, because you don’t want to base your paper on blatant misinformation.

Ideally, a source should have access to accurate first hand experience / data and should not be emotionally compromised.

Daisy / Skye is a BAD source of information in this case.

Why?

1. She is emotionally compromised. At this point, what she wants to do is hurt Ward (which is understandable) and discredit him, score some points, so she’s flinging the worst insults she can imagine at him. For a lot of people, that insult is “Nazi”. (Hence such things as Godwin’s law.)

2. Does she have first-hand experience or access to first-hand data where it comes to Hydra’s interna, their plans, their ideology and their goals?

No.

The whole point of CATWS and large parts of AoS is that SHIELD doesn’t know about any of this and is desperately trying to figure these out.

You’ll also note how Ward, who, unlike her, DOES have fist-hand experience with Hydra ideology and Hydra interna, pretty much goes “WTF? NO! and for good reason.

Btw, the same holds true for pretty much every other Hydra agent, e.g. the one on the aircraft carrier Iliad, who listens to the news during the Hydra uprising and is quite exasperated and pretty much rolling his eyes at all that stupid when he hears the newscaster referring to Hydra as Nazi.

The other thing that has me cringing a lot in the Skye/Ward scene is that of all things, she cites the SHIELD handbook. Because ffs….that thing got written while HYDRA was still balls-deep embedded in SHIELD, so it’s very likely they co-wrote the thing as part of their efforts to obfuscate their tracks.

Because hell, as long as you think “Nazi”, a racist ideology that is centered on the belief in the supremacy of a white, aryan race, you’re never ever going to suspect PoCs like e.g. Sunil Bakshi or Jasper Sitwell of belonging to Hydra’s upper management (Similar goes for all the other PoCs we see as part of Hydra’s troops).

The cherry on the cake though is when Skye/Daisy goes for the “Hitler Youth” insult, because it nicely showcases that she’s not only ignorant about Hydra, but apparently also knows diddly-squat about the Nazis and the Third Reich.

The typical “Hitler Youth” was blond and blue-eyed….and is Ward blond and blue-eyed?

No?

Then she is wrong and so are you.

Now….there’s this thing called “genetic fallacy”, meaning that even a bad source can be right, just like a broken clock can be right about the time twice a day.

So….the Nazi accusation is based on the fact that Ward is a member of Hydra.

The question now is in how far Hydra itself qualifies as Nazi.

Never mind the fact that both the comics version and the MCU version Hydra are millenia older than the Nazi party.

The main problem is that despite what wide-spread misinformation and cluelessness would have you believe, “Nazi” is NOT a short-hand for “really, really evil guy that I can’t stand.”

Anybody with moderately good grasp of history and socio-political sciences is aware that

a) Genocide, mass murder and massacres are global phenomena throughout history and that NONE of these is a Nazi exclusive special.

Examples?

Genocide in Rwanda, which was PoC against PoC and above all, it was the neighbours and co-workers whom the victims had known all their lives.Other ones?

Jamestown massacre. Racially integrated, utopian cult. People joined because they thought it was the cure to all of societies’ ills. Over 900 dead, a lot of them children. It’s where the expression “drinking the kool-aid” comes from.

Or hey, take a look at the My Lai massacre. Those were US soldiers, and they slaughtered and killed civilians, everybody from small children to grandmothers and they and took bloody trophies. Do you know what they cited as their defense when they were charged in a court martial? “We were just following orders” Btw, only one of them ever went to prison and he got released early, after just 3 years.

While we’re at it…..Abu Ghraib anyone? The Genocide of the Armenian minority by the Ottoman government?   ISIS / Daesh?  The atrocities comitted by the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia? Remember when white settlers in the US slaughtered the Indians, under the guise of “Manifest Destiny”? And let’s not forget what was done to slaves shipped to the Americas….

For unethical medical experimentation try Japan’s Unit 731, who were BIG on vivisection and the Tuskegee experiment and Project 4.1 in the USA.

For other examples of totalitarian regimes, see here.

Really, in order to commit atrocities like Hydra does in the MCU, you really don’t have to be a Nazi.

Never mind that e.g. in CATWS Hydra served as a stand-in for the NSA and the US drone strike policy, neither of which is Nazi.

To quote Joe Russo :

“So we said [to Marvel] if you want to make a political thriller, all the great political thrillers have very current issues in them that reflect the anxiety of the audience…That gives it an immediacy, it makes it relevant. So [Anthony] and I just looked at the issues that were causing anxiety for us, because we read a lot and are politically inclined. And a lot of that stuff had to do with civil liberties issues, drone strikes, the president’s kill list, preemptive technology.”

Other people have noticed this as well, within fandom, as well as outside of it.

(Well….obviously not everybody in fandom. Some people apparently didn’t get the memo and were too limited in their education to recognize the glaringly obvious parallels by themselves.)

b) Does Hydra follow Nazi ideology?

Well, what ARE the core tenets of Nazi ideology? Hm?

According to the the Centre for Holocaust and Genocide studies, you have to be racist and antisemitic to qualify as a Nazi and you need to believe in the supremacy of a white, aryan race.

So the current version of Hydra….are they racist?

No.

I believe I already mentioned the high amount of PoC within their ranks, a lot of them in really high, leading positions, which is something the Nazis would never have tolerated.

There is no mention in the MCU whatsoever of them believing in a “white, aryan master-race” either.

Nope.

They were created to bring back some Inhuman jerkwad from outer-space and their goal is to establish a totalitarian regime via genocide, because they think that humanity as a whole is too chaotic and dangerous if left to their own devices and their own free will.

So what about anti-semitism?

Well, in the prequel comics to CATFA, the Red Skull EXPLICITLY states that he does NOT follow the Nazi ideology, and that he thinks racism and antisemistim are “racist superstition masquerading as junk science”.

So yeah, they’re not anti-semitic either.

TL;DR:

Hydra are evil scumbags and pretty much Marvel’s go-to stand-in for whatever harmful political ideology they currently want to take pot-shots at…..but they are NOT Nazis.

And neither is Grant Ward.

- - - - - - - -

P.S.:

That said, here’s another little something for you to think about:

Just because a character has done bad things, this doesn’t justify or excuse the abuse that they suffered at the hands of others. And yes, such abuse can factor into the judgement of their crimes. It’s why courts of justice and the law recognize the existence of extenuating factors.

And if a person did bad things and regrets them, the right thing to do is to offer them a way to redeem themselves and the possibility to to re-integreate into society. It’s why good prisons have rehabilitation and re-integration programs.

Also, you might want to consider that YES, fans are ARE allowed to be upset over what they perceive as bad characterisation and bad writing on part of the writers and to point them out publicly. Otherwise movements such as #saynotohydracap would have no point and would have to be shut down too.

8

In light of the recent horrifying Cap twist, I have seen far too many “stop saying they made him a nazi, HYDRA aren’t nazis!!!11!1″ so I thought I would bring back this scene to remind everyone that yes they are

Jack Kirby, born Jacob Kurtzberg, and Joe Simon were two Jewish men in a dangerous time who did something extraordinary. They created a true American hero who stood up for the little guy, like them. They created a political statement by putting Captain America on the cover of their comic knocking Hitler out with one good punch. Because the US was not even in the war yet, this led to the two men receiving death threats. Both men served in World War II, fighting against the Nazi regime.

It is so incredibly disrespectful to these two men to write this new story line of Captain America. The writers have already said it isn’t a Skrull, or a LMD, or brainwashing… this is the new direction they are choosing to take the character in. In light of this new development I encourage everyone to remember the men behind the incredible Cap we have had for all these years and to take a stand against the new series. Don’t buy it, don’t reblog it, do not show anything but opposition to it.

And always, Remember Jack Kirby and Joe Simon

#SayNoToHYDRACap: What You Can Do

In the past 36 hours or so, a lot of us have felt like we’ve had the rug pulled out from under us and that someone we have loved and trusted–some of us for all our lives–has been used against us to cause us pain. All for the sake of shock value and money.

There has been a lot of pain and suffering and we know Cap would want better for us and he would rather die than let anyone down like this.

Especially his Jewish fans.

What has happened with Steve Rogers Captain America #1 is horrifically antisemitic and spits on the legacy of the two Jewish men who created him to get the American population to care about Jewish lives in a time when no one really did. A genocide was happening and America did nothing. Around the world, antisemitism is on the rise again and Marvel is now having its own hand at it. If this enrages you–and it should–then you must want to do something.

Nick Spencer and Marvel Executives want you to think that since this has already been published and has apparently been years in the making (which is a stretch, to say the least, they said this started in 2014), the conversation on this is over and our anger is meaningless. I’m here tell you, this isn’t true–as a collective, we can force Marvel to change.This conversation is not over until we let it die out.

We may not be able to stop this run of Steve Rogers Captain America from completing but we can influence Marvel in two meaningful ways: we can make sure that no matter what, this is not permanent, and we can make Marvel consider what will happen if they continue this trend of antisemitism and bigotry, of ignoring the important legacy and impact of their characters.

Marvel is afraid of what we do and don’t spend our money on. Marvel is afraid of what we say to our friends, what we encourage our social groups to read and not read. Marvel is afraid of irrelevance

Marvel is afraid us.

Here is What You Can Do:

Most importantly, stay angry. Don’t let this moment pass.

We, as a fandom, are not powerless. We may not have superpowers, we may not have the individual wealth or social power to make a difference on our own, but we have the power to come together and let Marvel know we won’t stand for this. We will not passively stand by, Joe Simon and Jack Kirby would not want us to.

Captain America would not want us to stand by and let this happen.

why is #GiveCaptainAmericaABoyfriend less likely to happen because it would “destroy a 75 year-old character development” and because the “creators didn’t intend on making him queer” but it’s totally fucking ok to make Steve Grant fucking Rogers a nazi even though he was literally made by two jewish men who I’m pretty fucking sure didn’t intend on making him a part of hydra?

Steve Rogers

Steve: *has been against Hydra for like 70 years* 

  Steve: *is a symbol of hope and freedom* 

  Steve: *is worthy of holding Mjolnir* 

  Steve: *is literally one of the greatest superheros ever* 

  Marvel: NOPE HE’S HYDRA!!! BECAUSE THAT TOTALLY MAKES SENSE!!!! HE’S TOTALLY BEEN HYDRA THE WHOLE TIME!!!!! 

  Fandom:

Originally posted by queenpessimistic

dailydot.com
Marvel's latest plot twist: Steve Rogers was a HYDRA agent all along.
According to the new Captain America comic, Steve Rogers is a Nazi. And no, he's not an evil clone or an imposter.

Captain America: Steve Rogers #1 follows two storylines, the first of which is about Steve Rogers battling a modern-day HYDRA cell. The second story is a flashback to Steve’s childhood in 1926, in which his mother is seemingly recruited to HYDRA.

In the present day, the issue ends with Steve pushing one of his sidekicks out of a plane and uttering the phrase “Hail HYDRA.” The implication is that Steve Rogers has been HYDRA since childhood, a plot twist that the comic’s creators promoted in a series of interviews.

Speaking to USA Today, Marvel executive editor Tom Brevoort confirmed that this is the real Steve Rogers, saying, “We knew it would be like slapping people in the face.”

While you could argue that the post-Secret Wars Marvel Universe exists in a new continuity, the idea of a HYDRA Steve Rogers makes no sense in the context of any previous canon. There’s really no way to align this plot twist with the character’s 70-year history of fighting against HYDRA. 

[READ MORE]

(Pasting a couple of tweets here because I think they cover my opinion of this deeply stupid plot twist.)

People who inspired Steve Rogers:

Sarah Rogers, his mother who worked hard to give them a good life

Dr. Abraham Erksine, the Jewish scientist who escaped persecution in Nazi Germany and worked tirelessly to create the super-soldier serum to fight the Nazi oppression and paid for it with his life.

Bucky Barnes, his sidekick and best friend who risked his life to fight alongside Steve despite having no powers of his own.

Peggy Carter, the love of his life who taught him honor, respect, and inspired him and his passion to end bullies, no matter where they are. Who fought sexism both local and abroad and proved women are worthy of the same respect as any man.

People who did not inspire Steve Rogers:

FUCKING HYDRA!!!