When you’re not only wrong, but also citing the equivalent of an Onion Article to prove your point
I keep seeing people making claims that Grant Ward is a Nazi.
And using this as a justification to verbally abuse and harass anybody showing even a remote interest in the character in yet another round of tumblr-type purity wank.
And of all the sources that they might try to use to back up their point, they’re citing this one.
O.k…..all of you sweet summer children who believe that this proves their point, gather ‘round, because it’s
obvious that your teachers failed you, and I’m going to do something for
For that matter, if you ever attempt to get a college degree and if you would like to work in a field that requires a minimum of scientific literacy, all of you badly need to brush up on your logical thinking skills, otherwise you’re going to end up embarrassing yourselves and your colleagues.
So, for starters, if you have a hypothesis that you’d like to prove and you have a source (in this case Skye / Daisy) who claims to have relevant data, you need to take a look at that source and judge their reliability, because you don’t want to base your paper on blatant misinformation.
Ideally, a source should have access to accurate first hand experience / data and should not be emotionally compromised.
Daisy / Skye is a BAD source of information in this case.
1. She is emotionally compromised. At this point, what she wants to do is hurt Ward (which is understandable) and discredit him, score some points, so she’s flinging the worst insults she can imagine at him. For a lot of people, that insult is “Nazi”. (Hence such things as Godwin’s law.)
Does she have first-hand experience or access to first-hand data where
it comes to Hydra’s interna, their plans, their ideology and their
The whole point of CATWS and large parts of AoS is that SHIELD doesn’t know about any of this and is desperately trying to figure these out.
also note how Ward, who, unlike her, DOES have fist-hand experience
with Hydra ideology and Hydra interna, pretty much goes “WTF? NO!” and
for good reason.
Btw, the same holds true for pretty much every other
Hydra agent, e.g. the one on the aircraft carrier Iliad, who listens to
the news during the Hydra uprising and is quite exasperated and pretty
much rolling his eyes at all that stupid when he hears the newscaster
referring to Hydra as Nazi.
The other thing that has me
cringing a lot in the Skye/Ward scene is that of all things, she cites
the SHIELD handbook. Because ffs….that thing got written while HYDRA was still balls-deep embedded in SHIELD, so it’s very likely they co-wrote the thing as part of their efforts to obfuscate their tracks.
Because hell, as long as you think “Nazi”, a racist ideology that is centered on the belief in the supremacy of a white, aryan race, you’re never ever going to suspect PoCs like e.g. Sunil Bakshi or Jasper Sitwell of belonging to Hydra’s upper management (Similar goes for all the other PoCs we see as part of Hydra’s troops).
The cherry on the cake
though is when Skye/Daisy goes for the “Hitler Youth” insult, because it
nicely showcases that she’s not only ignorant about Hydra, but
apparently also knows diddly-squat about the Nazis and the Third Reich.
The typical “Hitler Youth” was blond and blue-eyed….and is Ward blond and blue-eyed?
Then she is wrong and so are you.
Now….there’s this thing called “genetic fallacy”, meaning that even a bad source can be right, just like a broken clock can be right about the time twice a day.
So….the Nazi accusation is based on the fact that Ward is a member of Hydra.
The question now is in how far Hydra itself qualifies as Nazi.
Never mind the fact that both the comics version and the MCU version Hydra are millenia older than the Nazi party.
The main problem is that despite what wide-spread misinformation and
cluelessness would have you believe, “Nazi” is NOT a short-hand for “really, really evil guy
that I can’t stand.”
Anybody with moderately good grasp of history and socio-political sciences is aware that
Genocide in Rwanda,
which was PoC against PoC and above all, it was the neighbours and
co-workers whom the victims had known all their lives.Other ones?
Jamestown massacre. Racially integrated, utopian cult. People joined because they thought it was the cure to all of societies’ ills. Over 900 dead, a lot of them children. It’s where the expression “drinking the kool-aid” comes from.
Or hey, take a look at the My Lai massacre. Those were US soldiers, and they slaughtered and killed civilians, everybody from small children to grandmothers and they and took bloody trophies. Do you know what they cited as their defense when they were charged in a court martial? “We were just following orders” Btw, only one of them ever went to prison and he got released early, after just 3 years.
While we’re at it…..Abu Ghraib anyone? The Genocide of the Armenian minority by the Ottoman government? ISIS / Daesh? The atrocities comitted by the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia? Remember when white settlers in the US slaughtered the Indians, under the guise of “Manifest Destiny”? And
let’s not forget what was done to slaves shipped to the Americas….
For other examples of totalitarian regimes, see here.
Really, in order to commit atrocities like Hydra does in the MCU, you really don’t have to be a Nazi.
Never mind that e.g. in CATWS Hydra served as a stand-in for the NSA and the US drone strike policy, neither of which is Nazi.
we said [to Marvel] if you want to make a political thriller, all the
great political thrillers have very current issues in them that reflect
the anxiety of the audience…That gives it an immediacy, it makes it
relevant. So [Anthony] and I just looked at the issues that were causing
anxiety for us, because we read a lot and are politically inclined. And
a lot of that stuff had to do with civil liberties issues, drone
strikes, the president’s kill list, preemptive technology.”
(Well….obviously not everybody in fandom. Some people apparently didn’t get the memo and were too limited in their education to recognize the glaringly obvious parallels by themselves.)
b) Does Hydra follow Nazi ideology?
Well, what ARE the core tenets of Nazi ideology? Hm?
According to the the Centre for Holocaust and Genocide studies, you have to be racist and antisemitic to
qualify as a Nazi and you need to believe in the supremacy of a white, aryan race.
So the current version of Hydra….are they racist?
I believe I already mentioned the high amount of PoC within their ranks, a lot of them in
really high, leading positions, which is something the Nazis would never have tolerated.
There is no mention in the MCU whatsoever of them believing in a “white, aryan master-race” either.
were created to bring back some Inhuman jerkwad from outer-space and
their goal is to establish a totalitarian regime via genocide, because they think that humanity as a whole is too chaotic and dangerous if left to their own devices and their own free will.
So what about anti-semitism?
Well, in the prequel comics to CATFA, the Red Skull EXPLICITLY states
that he does NOT follow the Nazi ideology, and that he thinks racism and
antisemistim are “racist superstition masquerading as junk science”.
So yeah, they’re not anti-semitic either.
Hydra are evil scumbags and pretty much Marvel’s go-to stand-in for whatever harmful political ideology they currently want to take pot-shots at…..but they are NOT Nazis.
And neither is Grant Ward.
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That said, here’s another little something for you to think about:
Just because a character has done bad things, this doesn’t justify or excuse the abuse that they suffered at the hands of others. And yes, such abuse can factor into the judgement of their crimes. It’s why courts of justice and the law recognize the existence of extenuating factors.
And if a person did bad things and regrets them, the right thing to do is to offer them a way to redeem themselves and the possibility to to re-integreate into society. It’s why good prisons have rehabilitation and re-integration programs.
Also, you might want to consider that YES, fans are ARE allowed to be upset over what they perceive as bad characterisation and bad writing on part of the writers and to point them out publicly. Otherwise movements such as #saynotohydracap would have no point and would have to be shut down too.