do you celebrate the Tridentine Latin Mass along with the Novus Ordo Mass? And what are your opinion on those who argue one over the other? God bless! +
I used to celebrate the Tridentine Mass every Sunday when I was in charge of a community which had weekly Extraordinary Form Mass. I love the Latin, the gestures, and the “old rite” very much.
However, in my last two assignments, I have so much work in the Ordinary Form that I don’t have the ability to continue offering the Tridentine Mass at this time.
As far as the arguing, it is based on a false premise. The false premise is that the “form” of the liturgy IS THE LITURGY.
But the sacred liturgy IS NOT TO BE EQUATED WITH ITS OUTWARD FORM (sorry for shouting lol). So, saying that “The better the form, the better the liturgy” is also a false premise that does not take into account the totality of what a “Mass experience” is religiously and in the order of God’s grace.
The sacred liturgy is not just exterior rituals and outward signs. The sacred liturgy is interior acts of receiving the Father’s love through Jesus, growing in love for Jesus, and experiencing mysterious encounters with His holy Presence.
From this variety of encounters with God during different parts of the Mass and in different settings, we each experience the outpouring of God’s grace which comes not only from the Sacrifice’s outward form, but from the INTERIOR experience of being “touched” or “moved” or “sanctified”.
The Catholic Church celebrates the sacred liturgy according to various outward forms, both Western and Eastern, because the experience of what actually “makes” beautiful and sanctifying worship is different according to different people and places. God bless and take care, Fr. Angel
Father Murdock helps Steve adjust to the OF Mass and hears his confessions!
Steve would prefer his confession to be anonymous, but when he opens with “It’s been sixty-six years since my last confession, and in that time I’ve…well, most of it I was unconscious…”, it’s a bit of a giveaway.
Father Murdock is used to older people calling him “father”, but it’s still something else when a ninety-year-old living legend does it.
Steve still prefers going to the EF Mass, but he’s not always near a parish that offers it. Tired of feeling lost during the OF Mass, he finally asks Father Murdock if he can walk him through it and explain everything.
At some point they have the “Can aliens be baptized?” conversation.
Steve also asks whether you need to confess sins you committed while you were brainwashed. For a friend, just in case.
if someone tries to tell you that The Latin Mass is wanted by the people and that’s why we offer it, that’s a lie. in a church that can fill 500 ppl, only 17 are in attendance. this is how it is most churches. don’t believe their lies. it is being forced upon us by ‘traditionalists’ and conservatives to further a political objective–a regression to pre-VII times. we must say no, we must fight back
if you don’t support female altar servers than you aren’t ‘traditional’ you’re just a misogynist and honestly if you support The Latin Mass’ ban on woman/girl altar servers you have way more problems than just your typical misogyny
Images of continuity .. of being in respect of those that give it .. of the Sunday that astonishes .. of the mass that comes to the open environs each week and stops and pauses by the gates of Jalsa .. the magnanimous gesture of love and cheer wills me to effort and to accomplish all that may give satisfaction to you .. you the Ef and you the mass ..
Folded in respect to all of you that give me respect .. folded to them that cherish the efforts for the multiple years put in .. folded in gratitude for the love and affection …
Nothing else matters ..
Social moral and service for the State or Nation, has been given great impetus and has given me opportunity to delve into the issues that commonly occur, and to find suitable resolve to resolve the malaise, if at all there is any ..
It comes as a natural call, to be in the midst of all the many campaigns that come to me .. but the gratitude shown is pseudo ism .. do not show me gratitude .. in doing so ,you convey to others that I be an alien to, not just my inner self but, to all around .. do the job, do the work, see its effects for improvement, see it progress, feel the passion for the cause, indulge in its execution and effect .. and leave .. ignoring all the protocol that follows - smiling faces, flower bouquets, mementoes, … and …. countless ‘SELfies’ -
‘Selfies’ … the national pastime of the day today - passengers at airport, in the aircraft, passers by, security personnel, wash room managers .. yes they too, even if you are in a compromising ‘position’ .. the lot .. even those that .. well never mind ..
We are now, proven without doubt, the most documented universe … each act movement and spoken word, recorded for personal posterity ; that is if it does not find value in the media or the other media .. !!
No conversation or meeting is ever complete without that ‘recorded’ picture - face it ( pun not intended ) and move on .. or move on to the next .. errr , selfie !
Sophisticated monitoring is the other selfie derivative. The rehab at 6 am , the work out for the morning hours, the cardio the strength the stretch the yoga breathing .. all now documented scientifically and graphically with faultless detail, which can be shared the world over at the press of a button ..
So the obvious question coming next - “how do I ( you ) get access to it ..?”
Answer : ‘you don’t ..!!’
Would one really like to share optimum heart rates, calorie burns, dips and spikes, duration, and regions covered within the times calculated, on a daily basis ..
If it is a yes from you .. its a NO from me .. and one does not have to delve too far to understand the ultimate revolutionary TAG of the decade, or perhaps many decades : NO means NO .. !!
Suffice to say that regulations are apt and conducive to condition .. give and take a bit ..
Father, my name is Marie. I've seen you defend the Catholic faith in these complicated issues that involve tradition. I know the TLM and the NO are both valid. Some traditionalists hold the belief that neither Padre Pio, nor St Josemaría Escrivá, liked the NO, and that the latter said "What is this shit?" when he first was told about it. I know that saints are not free from error but that seems too much! What do you know? I think it's bad to pit saints against the Church. Thanks and God Bless!
I wholeheartedly agree with you. Saints are holy because they journey with the Church, in union with the Church, and call the Church their holy Mother, no matter what they like, or do not like, within the Church.
Maybe there are great saints who did not like the liturgical changes after Vatican II. That is fine. The 1960′s were days of great controversy about Catholic teachings of just war, Catholic involvement in colonialism, the Catholic response to environmental concerns, social justice for laborers, Catholic practice regarding race relations, birth control, abortion, the role of women, and the Catholic ability to reach the modern world with a message which made sense.
The changes of the Mass are a “Latin rite” problem. The Eastern rite Catholics did not change their liturgy at that time. Within the Latin rite, the practice was to focus on the Tridentine Mass as THE Catholic Mass and ignore the other rites and customs, for instance, of the Oriental churches. So, when changes were made to the Tridentine Mass, many Catholics assumed “the Church changed” or “the Church was no longer the same Church.”
And yet, these fights and hatreds deal with a problem in the Latin rite, which is our propensity to think that the Latin rite is THE ONLY (or the MOST important) expression of Catholic Faith. Latin rite Catholics have often believed that if Catholics attended the Latin, Tridentine form of Mass, that this is what mattered most. Also, we Latin rite Catholics have often believed that if we are not happy, then the rest of the Catholic Church is sinking to the bottom of the ocean LOL.
Not only that, but western European and Western nations (U.S., Canada) have, within the Latin rite, focused on their issues. So, if Padre Pio is angry, that means the whole Church should be angry–who cares if the Africans, Asians, and Latin Americans are doing fine. Or if Josemaria Escrivá was angry, the whole Church should take this as a sign that something is wrong–who cares what is happening in the Philippines or in Eastern Europe!
So, yes, I do not like people trying to pit certain saints against the entire Church, in order to discredit the liturgical reforms of the Vatican Council II.
That is one approach to putting your question in perspective. The other approach is our hagiography, or the way we study the saints. Is there anything wrong with a saint getting angry, or cussing? Does that “unsanctify” them? Are they less than human? The fact of the matter is that saints in the Church are holy, but they are still sinners. They sin with venial sins to the end of their lives.
Padre Pio never spoke out against the Ordinary Form Mass. In fact, Padre Pio died on September 23, 1968, which is over a year before the “novus ordo” was even promulgated! So much for that rumor. How could Pio celebrate, or say no to a Mass, which did not even exist yet??
If you see the videos of Saint Pio’s last Mass, you will see that he incorporated the style of offering a Mass that is facing the people. So, Padre Pio was not against all liturgical change, as long as it came from the Church.
Finally, Padre Pio went on record to write Pope Paul VI and to defend him and pledge prayer for him. Just a few weeks before he died, Padre Pio wrote these words to Paul VI, who would promulgate the new Mass a year later:
I know that Your heart suffers much these days on account of the happenings in the Church: for peace in the world, for the great needs of its peoples; but above all, for the lack of obedience of some, even Catholics, to the lofty teachings which You, assisted by the Holy Spirit and in the name of God, have given us. I offer Your Holiness my daily prayers and sufferings, the insignificant but sincere offering of the least of your sons, asking the Lord to comfort you with His grace to continue along the direct yet often burdensome way—in defense of those eternal truths which can never change with the times. (https://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/PIOPOPE.HTM)
Those words put to the lie the impression made by some traditionalists that St. Pio somehow did not like Paul VI or resisted his pontificate.
As for St. Josemaria, you know as well as I, that he was a Spaniard. With all respects to Spain, our “Madre Patria” (speaking as a Hispanic), the Spaniards cuss a lot, and they often use the word “mierda” (shit) when they are cussing. Even priests and nuns in Spain will protest anger or disgust by saying at times “Que mierda es esto?” (”what crap is this?”).
No, this is not very proper behavior. It can be shocking in certain contexts. But we cannot condemn all Spaniards and all of Spain because they use more cuss words than we do. In their nation, in their country, in their culture, they express their passions and their emotions as best they know how. I think they are kind of strong in their language, but at least they are upfront, frank, and tell you what they think, unlike certain parts of the world where people smile at you but they are sneaky and passive aggressive when you turn your back.
Did St. Josemaria say, “Que mierda?” (what crap) when he saw the rubrics, the vernacular, the changes of the Ordinary Form Mass? I seriously doubt it. If he did use that phrase, it was probably anger at something very specific, at that moment. That, I can believe. If he had an outburst of anger, it would not have been at the entire Mass, but at something concerning the Mass which he felt was not for the good of the Church.
Which does not mean he is not a saint. It means that St. Josemaria wanted the good of the Church in all things. Most importantly, let’s not forget that St. Josemaria instructed the priests of Opus Dei to be loyal and obedient to the Pope in all things, to never, ever preach against the Church, and to guide people to make peace with the trials of their life in the world–which means if the new Mass is the only one available, to accept that and attend with devotion.
I do not believe at all that St. Josemaria was against the new Mass, for the simple reason that practically all the Opus Dei priests switched in 1969 immediately to offering the Ordinary Form, not the traditional Latin Mass, and the Saint never criticized them and never told them to stop, “because the new Mass is bad.” To this day, the Opus Dei priests mostly all offer the present Mass of the Ordinary Form.
A birthday a birthday a birthday to celebrate .. a wish and a phiss and another tish phish .. happy birthday :
Rakhi Malik and Rima Sukhadia … Ef live long ..
Themasses and the well wishers were in excess and in voice .. there is now an apprehension in going out to meet them .. wonder what they will think, what they shall say, how they shall behave … just so much to do and think .. at times I wish I could be just away from all and alone ..
But the screams and wild shouts of joy that I see in the faces each Sunday, changes my mind .. changes my perception, changes my opinion .. it is love and only love at every Sunday sight … !!!
Who are these people .. where do they come from .. what do they want .. and why .. I am in intrigue as ever always … the laughter and the expressions of excitement would melt any heart .. they are the true admirers and one can only give them my reciprocal love and wave and the odd autograph ..
Time utilisation is an asset that can very well be misinterpreted .. many that have the feel of attention to themselves, wonder why they are not in the vision of attention .. others feel the same .. but time is ever moving .. it cannot and will not be stable and still .. those that practice the art of following should never be in disillusionment .. I follow because I will it .. will shall only be replaced by another will of your own doing .. my doing is to be in the correctness of behaviour .. your correctness shall be in just the fact of being there with me .. dictat is not that one shall get from me .. my dictat is continuity of my presence here and elsewhere … this is a dictat that I follow diligently .. and always shall …
As you clear your cupboard, your desk your shelves of books and papers, you feel that the mind clears as well … I wonder why .. but it does. A cluttered environ perhaps, creates a cluttered mind … but a good rest a good sleep is known to have repaired all that may have got disturbed and in disarray .. I need that now .. but this is not a classic way of ending our thoughts for today .. we must speak some more ..
I wish to change the Blog responses .. they come in short numbers and then you have to log in again to get the rest of them and again for them to be seen more .. it is so tedious and frustrating .. and also the reason why I am unable to respond to so many that I wish to .. my back end Digital team if you read this do something .. my Ef they suffer … !!!
At times when I sit with people, staff, professionals .. one gets into the routine of recital .. not a recital of poetry or music or ballet .. but a recital of matters gone by of the past incident of a stream of thought unknown to many .. and those that listen in advise me to write more and write in detail and disclose all those stories that I possess, for time they say shall wait for no one and as I get older I shall be failing my memories and that would be tragic if details and incidents were to be forgotten ..