do you think ned loved catelyn? that was the impression i very much got from the books and the show. my friend disagrees though and says while cat clearly loves ned, ned doesn't love her as much as she does him in the books.
Ned loves Catelyn very much. He’s a family man through and through (well beyond the point of political utility), and his relationship with Catelyn is absolutely essential to that.
The silence went on and on, so long that she began to grow afraid once more, but she was afraid for him now, not for herself. She found his massive shoulder with her hand. “He was no true knight,” she whispered to him. The Hound threw back his head and roared. Sansa stumbled back, away from him, but he caught her arm. “No,” he growled at her, “no, little bird, he was no true knight.”
Sansa Stark | A Game of Thrones (George R.R. Martin)
I had always been so curious about this quote… “Sometimes she would close her eyes and dream of him, but it was never Jorah Mormont she dreamed of; her lover was always younger and more comely, though his face remained a shifting shadow.” Especially because I have seen it shared on Tumblr with this gif
And today I finally realized that this is from Dany’s masturbation scene on a boat, which her handmaiden helps her out with. Context is everything & pretty awesome in this case. 😈
you're the first person to talk about how disgusting deenerys is to the slaves and freedmen. can you make like a comprehensive post about it, please? i'm rereading the books and so i don't remember well.
I don’t at all remember exactly all I have ever said on this site, but I don’t remember ever using the work ‘disgusting’, if I did, I want to take it back right now. Slavers and slavery is disgusting. The way Daenerys tried to liberate slaves wasn’t disgusting, it was just stupid and wrong with disastrous consequences… And delusional, ignorant and hypocritical.
Trust me though, I am by far not the only one, and most certainly not the first to declare Dany’s Mereen campaign all I said above and more. Loads and loads of people have criticized it and named it for what it is.
I’m not gonna make a comprehensive post aka meta, because I literally do not even have the time to update the last two chapters of my fic (sorry bout that). I’m crazy busy and I lack both the time and energy necessary to look up book quotes and everything.
I’ll give you a from the top of my head list, though, which is gonna me crazy long and detailed still. Hope that’s sufficient to give you an idea:
- It’s lovely that she wanted to free slaves, but the reasoning sucks. She is perfectly fine with Drogo collecting them to afford the ships she needs, nor does she actually ever liberate Mirri Maz Duur and the other women, she merely stops the raping. In the first two books she not once mentioned because disgusted by slavery. When she goes to Yunkai, planning on buying the Unsullied, there’s not a vessel of her brain that protests against this plan because she’s so anti slavery. The truth is that Daenerys ‘liberates’ the Unsullied because she can’t afford them. She was planning on buying them. The Human Rights Declaration 1948 part of my brain knows this makes her guilty of slavery. Her anti-slavery campaign starts cause she’s broke, which is the worst of reasonings… despite all the claps she receives for being so kind-hearted.
- The way she liberates them is stupid. She makes very different kind of mistakes in Yunkai, Mereen and Astapor, which is kinda amazing in a way, because all three cities are completely in ruins after she interfered, one more so than the other, but still. We can conclude she learns nothing as she goes, cause she keeps screwing up. Astapor may or may not be her greatest monstrosity of all. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Yunkai turning her back on her and becoming her 1# enemy was as predictable as anything (really, Dany? leaving the government and military fully intact? So odd, that they eventually rebel) and Mereen was, if anything, the prove we didn’t need to know Daenerys is a shit ruler. Dany and her anti-slavery campaigns indirectly killed many many people and brought prosperous cities to total ruin.
- Just adding this: from a superficial moral pov liberating slaves is a really really good thing, but you can’t just say ‘and now you are all free’. Very little has changed in the actual lives of these people Dany ‘freed’, which only shows how little Dany-I-know-what-it-is-like-to-be-bought-and-sold-Targaryen understands of slavery. She delcares them free and believes the issues are gone, but that’s of course not at all how it works. Being a slave doesn’t just mean you’re the property of someone else. You can’t take slavery out of society by just banning it. Slavery is part of Essosi culture, it goes very very deep. She underestimates that, because, despite her own believes, she knows nothing of what it’s like to be bought and sold. She was Drogo’s exotic trophy wife, she became his queen for crying out loud, gained power, independence and was freed of Viserys. She compares that to being the absolute scum of society? Nah. Not impressed.
- Let’s be real, Dany’s real, main and true goal is the Iron Throne. She’s not planning on staying, she’s in no way planning on dedicating her life to it. Odd right? To think freeing a society is something that doesn’t have to be someone’s life’s work. Liberating slaves, their freedom, is a stop along the way to her. She takes it so seriously that she didn’t even come up with a long term plan. She’s using this as a way to ‘learn’ how to rule. Think of that… liberating thousands and thousands of people is not something she sees as her life’s goal, it’s just a learning process to Daenerys before she goes for the real price.
- Daenerys doesn’t pay the unsullied. Where were they supposed to go after she ‘liberated’ them? They were eunuchs who killed infants babies as part of their training, an inhumane training, with no family, no loved ones, no nothing. They had nowhere else to go but to follow their blonde princess. It looks like they choose her because she’s their mother Theresa, but honestly, it was the only option for them… And she doesn’t pay them. They’re slaves who’re ‘allowed’ to leave whenever they want. Ha. What exactly has changed for them, I ask?
- Daenerys uses unpaid labor for public work projects in Mereen, something with beans it was, I think. *cough* slavery *cough*.
- Daenerys allows freed slaves to sell themselves back into slavery because the ‘freedom’ she offered them is worse. She also keeps part of the bargain. Ha.
- She crucifies over a hundred people who may or may not be guilty of any crime, doesn’t care to check their guilt. It disgusts me how people shrug this off with ‘they were slavers’. I personally don’y believe in fighting cruelty with cruelty, especially not when that cruelty comes from anger about a certain thing that the executed may or may not have been guilty off. And she allows them to choose themselves who among them gets killed. That’s one way not to get the guilty ones punished.
- I can come up with a million things of what she does wrong in Mereen, really. She’s too cruel when she needs to be soft, and too naive when she should be wary. One example that I’ve always ‘loved’ because it’s so ironic, is when a rich woman comes to her, asking for help. The woman has lost her son and husband during the sack and fled her house to hide with family. When the woman returned to her house, she found it taken over by prostitutes, who were all wearing her jewelry and dresses. The woman pleads for Daenerys to help her get her home back. Dany’s judgement? The woman gave up her rights to her home the moment she fled… can you feel it? Remember who else fled her home and now wants it back? Exactly. Oh George.. the irony.
- Daenerys uses torture. People always use that example of the minors, and of course this was especially horrifying, but no one can deny she’s guilty of systemic torture
- Daenerys believes her way of living is better than that of the Mereneese. She’s right kind of, about slavery and all, but not everything about the Mereneese culture is curel and savage. She complains about the fighting pits, she complains about people eating dogs, she complains about the way people dress… oh right, she actually has teenage boys murdered solely because of their choice of dress.
- While Mereen starves and bleeds and suffers and nothing of Astapor remains except ‘Hell on earth’- Quintyn Martell, she sits in the tip of her fancy Pyramid, eating sweet fruit and drinking wine, looking down on her ‘free’ subjects, complaining about her many burdens as self-declared queen, dreaming about when to find a moment alone with her dear dear handsome Daario- who’s, obviously to everyone but Daenerys, using her. I can’t.
- Have I mentioned she doesn’t care about Mereneese culture? She doesn’t put much time into learning about it, and all that she learns she waves away and deems inferior to her own.
Oh RIGHT! She’s just a girls… she’s just learning! She’s trying! She wants to be good, she wants to do the right thing, she… means well.
Do thousands of people have to die cause she means well? Me don’t think so. Kinda odd, isn’t it, that sacrifices like that must be made to make someone suitable to rule, when about every character in ASOIAF is more suitable to rule. Why does Daenerys gets to make these sacrifices? Cause she’s her mad daddy’s daughter? She’s not even the actual rightful ruler. In the books there’s Aegon, who’s going to turn Daenerys in a real usurper (the one she learned to hate all her life) and in the show there’s Jon. She’s not even the rightful ruler. She’s just a girl with too much power. That said, after all the experience she’s had and all the learning moments that have come her way, she’s learned fairly little. She continues to be delusional and ignorant and constantly makes mistakes she’s made before.
To quote my favorite quoran: Dany ostensibly means well, yet destroys about everything she touches, cities, people and complete societies… yet people want her to be queen of Westeros? I think they have suffered enough.
That’s all I can come up with without picking up the books. Hope you kinda understand my pov better now. If you don’t, that’s fine. Most Daenerys stans can’t be turned away from the dark side anymore, not after all that. What I mean is… if you can still support Daenerys and believe she should rule the world after all the crap she’s done… well, there’s nothing she can do to change your mind.
The inn was a shadow of what it once was. She could see that. The paint was chipped and faded, but underneath it had beautiful bones. She could imagine her father here, before she was born, the summer before he married her mother, when he was living in the shadow of his own war. It would have been easy for anyone to fall in love here, she didn’t blame him.
Reading that Unsullied sales pitch scene from Dany’s POV was really hard with all the baby & puppy killing stories, torture porn & misogyny. It was interesting to know why Dany felt so deeply about doing something about slavery instead of just leaving Astapor because she finally acknowledges that her brother sold her to Drogo. But what I loved most was Dany bitch slapping Jorah for forcing himself on her & bringing her to Astapor to buy an army of slaves…
What's your take on Pycelle? Is he like Ser Arys, genuinely trying to fulfill his vocation, but partisan due to personal preferences & legit admiration? Corrupt and bought? A guy with a secret agenda, like Varys? A guy out for self-aggrandizement, like LF, going along with the faction that offers the best chance? Some other? WoI&F shows he gave props to Tywin in his reports to the Citadel, possibly influencing the pro-Lannister slant of the narrator. What does that suggest about him?
Pycelle is a genuine Tywin fanboy, and believing Tywin is the bestest ever, serves the agenda he believes Tywin would want.
Of all the mourners, Grand Maester Pycelle had seemed the most distraught. “I have served six kings,” he told Jaime after the second service, whilst sniffing doubtfully about the corpse, “but here before us lies the greatest man I ever knew. Lord Tywin wore no crown, yet he was all a king should be.”
- Jaime I, AFFC
Not a Lannister fanboy, as becomes clearer the more he interacts with Tyrion and Cersei. A Tywin fanboy. And a completely transparent one as well. Look at how he maintains implausible denial when Gregor Clegane starts raiding the Riverlands.
Grand Maester Pycelle rose ponderously from the council table, his chain of office clinking.
“Ser Marq, with respect, you cannot know that this outlaw was Ser Gregor. There are many large
men in the realm.”
“Why should Ser Gregor turn brigand?” Pycelle asked. “By the grace of his liege lord, he holds
a stout keep and lands of his own. The man is an anointed knight.”
“A false knight!” Ser Marq said. “Lord Tywin’s mad dog.”
“My lord Hand,” Pycelle declared in a stiff voice, “I urge you to remind this good knight that
Lord Tywin Lannister is the father of our own gracious queen.”
- both from Eddard XI, AGoT
Pycelle’s proposed solutions are either having the complaining Riverlords and Tywin sort it out themselves, or Ned sitting on his hands and waiting for Robert to get back from his hunt. Both solutions favour Tywin over anyone else. It’s painfully obvious. So obvious even Ned starts snarking about it.
Then we get into material with Tyrion.
“As you command. How many men should I take?”
“Why, all of them.”
Vylarr stood like a man made of stone. It was Grand Maester Pycelle who rose, gasping, “My lord Hand, that cannot… your father, Lord Tywin himself, he sent these good men to our city to
protect Queen Cersei and her children…”
- Tyrion VI, ACoK
If Tywin sent those men, how could anyone even think to dispose of them otherwise? The most damning bit of information comes out in that chapter too.
Pycelle’s breathing was rapid and shallow. “All I did, I did for House Lannister.” A sheen of
sweat covered the broad dome of the old man’s brow, and wisps of white hair clung to his
wrinkled skin. “Always… for years… your lord father, ask him, I was ever his true servant…
‘twas I who bid Aerys open his gates…”
I mean, holy crap. Pycelle’s there to advise Aerys, and he here admits to a flagrant violation of that vow - with that phrasing, it’s clear he didn’t think Tywin was there to help Aerys. So when he says things like this…
Grand Maester Pycelle cleared his throat, a process that seemed to take some minutes. “My order serves the realm, not the ruler. Once I counseled King Aerys as loyally as I counsel King Robert now[.]”
- Eddard VIII, AGoT
…laughing bitterly seems like the appropriate response.
Politically, Pycelle is nothing but toxic. About the best you can say for him is that he seems to be a skilled doctor.
The Grand Maester spread his hands in a gesture of helpless sorrow. “[Jon Arryn] came to me one day
asking after a certain book, as hale and healthy as ever, though it did seem to me that something
was troubling him deeply. The next morning he was twisted over in pain, too sick to rise from
bed. Maester Colemon thought it was a chill on the stomach. The weather had been hot, and the
Hand often iced his wine, which can upset the digestion. When Lord Jon continued to weaken, I
went to him myself, but the gods did not grant me the power to save him.”
“I have heard that you sent Maester Colemon away.”
The Grand Maester’s nod was as slow and deliberate as a glacier. “I did, and I fear the Lady
Lysa will never forgive me that. Maybe I was wrong, but at the time I thought it best. Maester
Colemon is like a son to me, and I yield to none in my esteem for his abilities, but he is young,
and the young ofttimes do not comprehend the frailty of an older body. He was purging Lord
Arryn with wasting potions and pepper juice, and I feared he might kill him.”
- Eddard V, AGoT
But even that skill is turned towards Tywin’s service. Pycelle, suspecting Cersei had Jon Arryn poisoned, called a halt to purging and let Jon Arryn die. If Cersei did it, it was probably what her father would want, and Tywin’s never wrong about what’s best for the realm. Perfectly consistent.
“Well,” Arya said, “my hair’s messy and my nails are dirty and my feet are all hard.” Robb wouldn’t care about that, probably, but her mother would. Lady Catelyn always wanted her to be like Sansa, to sing and dance and sew and mind her courtesies. Just thinking of it made Arya try to comb her hair with her fingers, but it was all tangles and mats, and all she did was tear some out. “I ruined that gown that Lady Smallwood gave me, and I don’t sew so good.” She chewed her lip. “I don’t sew very well, I mean. Septa Mordane used to say I had a blacksmith’s hands.”
Gendry hooted. “Those soft little things?” he called out. “You couldn’t even hold a hammer.”
“I could if I wanted!” she snapped at him.
i take no joy in mead nor meat, and song and laughter have become suspicious strangers to me. i am a creature of grief and dust and bitter longings. there is an empty place within me where my heart was once.
“As he stood outside the armory looking up, Jon felt almost as overwhelmed as he had that day on the Kingsroad, when he’d seen it for the first time. The Wall was like that. Sometimes he could almost forget that it was there, the way you forgot about the sky or the earth underfoot, but there were other times when it seemed as if there was nothing else in the world. It was older than the Seven Kingdoms, and when he stood beneath it and looked up, it made Jon dizzy. He could feel the great weight of all that ice pressing down on him, as if it were about to topple, and somehow Jon knew that if it fell, the world fell with it.” - Jon Snow (A Game of Thrones)