80's history

The problem with some young goths and the unintentional erasure of the goth subculture

I’ve complained enough about elitists over the years and to be perfectly honest, elitists arent the only problematic members of the goth subculture. If you were to put goth on a scale it would be be broken up into three major groups.

On one end you would find the elitist group. A group of goths who believe that there is absolutely only one way of being goth and in order to be it you must abide by their strict rules. These are the people who prefer to bully other goths than keep their opinions to themselves. This group is usually on the smaller side because most goths dont like engaging with them because of the drama that they bring. But i’ve already discussed this group many times before.

In the middle of the scale we have a very balanced group of goths. This is also the largest group. This group encompasses thousands of goths around the world of different styles and ages. These goths believe that goth is a subculture and is something that should be respected. These goths are also very aware of where and when goth started and how. This group respects the music and though not everyone in this group listens to goth music, they are still very aware of its importance to the goth subculture. This is the best place to sit on the scale. These goths often feel that goth should not dictate who they are as a person but at the same time these goths feel that the history and the music should be respected.

Now we get to the last group that unfortunately has been growing in numbers over the past few years. This is the group that poses a threat to the preservation of goth as a subculture.

First, i’m going to start with a definition for the word “subculture”

A cultural group within a larger culture, often having beliefs or interests at variance with those of the larger culture

This means that a subculture is a smaller culture within a larger one and that there are specific values, beliefs and interests that divide this culture from the larger. So in order to be a part of a subculture you must have these same beliefs, interests, and values. Of course there is a ton of wiggle room when it comes to the goth subculture. Goth does not restrict you to these interests and values, but instead allows you to include your own. You can be goth and have non goth interests. You can be goth and listen to non goth music. Also the values that are often considered more mandatory are simply based on respect. Many will say that you dont have to limit yourself to listening to only goth music but, it is important to respect the music because the subculture, fashion, etc. wouldnt exist without it.

This is where problems arise. In the modern goth subculture, we are seeing more and more goths throwing these values out the window and ditching all respect for the subculture. These people are treating goth as more of a fashion statement than a culture. Goth was never meant to be a superficial concept lacking any depth or substance. Like punk, goth was a strange and amazing phenomenon that occurred at just the right moment in time. Goth was this thing that connected people through a love of dark music and a taste for the darker, stranger side of life. The fashion sort of came after and was mostly influenced by the artists producing these dark genres of music. So no matter how you look at it, goth music is really what kick started the whole thing

But many of these young, new goths dont care about that. They believe that goth is anything they say it is. When this is just not true. You cant walk up to a member of  X subculture and tell him that his values and beliefs dont need to be respected and that X culture is completely subjective. Thats just not how subcultures work. Subcultures are not subjective. Goth as a subculture is not subjective. You can be a goth have your own views on the world. You can have your own interests and beliefs but goth is still a subculture and certain values NEED to be respected. If we dont respect these certain values than we risk losing our subculture.

By ignoring the history and beliefs of a subculture you are leading to its erasure. And if you know anything about today’s social issues, this should sound very familiar. We live in a time where all cultures, not just subcultures, run the risk of being erased due to racism, appropriation, the domination of mainstream cultures as well as other factors. So its important that we keep some of these values and continue to respect the history of goth as a subculture.

Unfortunately this is becoming harder and harder to do, with the rise in popularity of blogging and social media as an outlet for expressing one’s personal views and opinions. Many goth blogs on tumblr are getting popular for very superficial reasons such as fashion and aesthetic purposes. Its very easy for a blog that only posts goth fashion to become popular and though this isnt negative on its own when the person behind the blog starts divulging their opinions about the subculture, they already have a large follower base to listen to them.

So if this blogger who only cares about goth fashion, who doesnt respect the subculture starts pontificating on topics they know nothing about or respect, this will subsequently lead to a large number of less educated people to believe in misinformation about the subculture. If a popular blogger starts saying things like, “you dont need to respect or like goth music to be goth,” or, “you dont need to know anything about the history of goth to be goth” their followers will start to believe this, when its just not true.

If this keeps up like it is, eventually we are going to see a lot of young goths who dont care about the subculture. Who only want to be goth because “it looks cool” or “it scares my parents.” Goth will eventually become nothing more than a trend. Something a kid does for attention. This will also divide goths even more. You will start seeing a lot of older goths stop wanting anything to do with the younger generations and their lack of respect for the culture.

Yes goth should be something a person can have fun with but there is more that divides goths from the mainstream than just our look and many of us would like to keep it that way. Goth used to be about music, literature, art, philosophy and more. Goths were mature, refined and intelligent people who liked discussing topics such as philosophy and psychology.  We were a cultured breed who enjoyed history and arts. Goth is not a gimmick. Its not a trend. Its a way of life and its a culture. And many of us are tired of seeing younger people try and ruin that.

And another thing. This is something that is not said enough and its so damn important. You do not need to be goth to like goth things. You dont have to restrict yourself to a label. Its okay to like goth things and not consider yourself goth, in fact i encourage it. If goth really is right for you, you will want to know everything about it naturally. You will feel a passion for learning about its music and history and above all, you will respect it. If not, maybe goth just isnt for you and thats okay. Even if you dont fit the label, you can still follow goth blogs and have goth friends and go to goth events but if you really want to preserve goth, you need to respect it as more than just an image. You need to respect it as a subculture that is rich with history, art and very importantly, music. 

ID #71712

Name: Maeve
Age: 18
Country: Northern Ireland

I’m a cis bi girl who is (hopefully) about to go to uni to study english lit and art history :-) obvs I love reading and art in all forms, + I’m constantly drawing, some other things I like are: plants+animals, 80’s movies, drinking, exploring/ghost hunting and taking photos of basically everything I do lol. I also love having ~deep~ existential convos with people haha. I listen to music of p much any genre, + I’m currently anxiously awaiting vampire weekend’s return, tho the beatles are the faves tbh. I’d love to try snail mail (although online is cool too) n it would be fun to trade music/book recs or even lil drawings n stuff :-)

Preferences: 17+ please n it’s not essential but it would be nice to talk to other LGBT people :-)


Gonna drive him to school in the mornings? Are you even gonna be alive by the time the kid goes to school? 
You don’t even know how to be a husband!
Do we ever go anywhere without having 600 thugs hanging around all the time!?
I have Nick “The Pig” as a friend. What kind of life is that? 
Can’t you see? What we’re becoming, Tony? We’re losers. We’re not winners, we’re losers. 

anonymous asked:

Do you think Bill knew/knows that Hillary deserves a better partner? Do you think Hillary ever recognized that she deserved and could have better?

Well… I think the answer to this question depends on the answer to the “Big Question” about the two of them. I’m not going to put this under a cut, but I guess I’ll prepare for a bit of a shit-storm for diving into this. [I should have, this is very long].

I’ll preface this (I do that a lot) with a few points. (1) This won’t be cited with sources and references, so you can basically throw it all away if you want to. I’d respect that. I’ll likely write up another post with some of the same points, but with some citations for each scenario if there’s any interest. (2) There are a lot of feelings about this on all sides from folks in this “fandom”. That’s fine. But, while there are feelings, we need to acknowledge that, (3) aside from the information we all have access to, there is no one who really knows the answer to this question - the heart of the heart of it, all the depth and nuance - except Bill and Hillary. I myself have made a decision to (generally) accept reality as they present it. Generally. But I will discuss things contrary to that below, so… brace yourself.

Skip to the end for the actual answer to this anon’s question, if you’d like.

So, before I can answer whether Bill thinks Hillary “deserved better” than him, or if Hillary believes the same, you have to decide on your own answer to the question: What is the true nature of their relationship? 

And let’s be clear here, just one more time. Aside from interpreting the words of HRC and WJC, and the outside observations of both friends and critics, no one knows the answer to this any more than anyone else looking from the outside in. We all have access to (most of) the same information, but I must emphasize that truly, only Bill and Hillary can ever answer these questions to the absolute nth degree of certainty. We are outside observers, and our knowledge is based on the whims of the storytellers, and the story they want to present to their audience - for good and for evil.

So. There are a few “ranges” to consider when you form your own opinion on “The Big Question”:

  1. Does Bill Clinton love his wife - including romantically? 
  2. Does Hillary Clinton love her husband - including romantically?
  3. Did they marry out of love or as a political partnership?
  4. Did Hillary permit his infidelity, or forgive it?

On any of the above - is the answer to that question at the beginning of their relationship the same as it is today? Additionally, each of these questions are not a black and white, yes or no. There’s a spectrum. It’s up to outside observers to review the evidence, and then formulate an opinion.

Let’s walk through some possible scenarios. For the record - I believe #1. Don’t burn me at the stake for this, okay?

The possibilities:

#1. Hillary and Bill have a conventional marriage, and they love each other deeply - a romantic love included within that. While Bill has cheated on her, likely beginning in the 1980′s (it’s worth noting that Hillary does not mention anything about his infidelity in the 80′s, even in Living History - despite that fact that at the time of her writing it, the truth about his affair with Flowers had been exposed), it was relatively rare and not “meaningful”. Rumors about vast numbers of sexual partners are overstated/lies, and the cheating that did occur was due to some personal issues for Bill (how he was raised, issues in his childhood, self-control issues, sexual addiction, etc.), and not due to a lack of love, affection, or attraction to his wife. These instances of infidelity caused significant pain in their marriage, and they may have come close to divorcing over it in the late 80′s, but ultimately worked through it together. Hillary was genuinely shocked and devastated by the truth that came to light about Monica - not just because of the bad publicity, but because she was personally betrayed. They have since been through therapy together and Bill dealt with his demons, and has remained faithful since.

This is the closest to what has expressed as reality by both Hillary and Bill - aside from the general exclusion of commentary by both of them regarding his infidelity in the 1980′s in their memoirs and in general (not surprising, even though the Flowers’ affair was something he ultimately admitted to, etc.). There is plenty of evidence to support this version of reality.

#2.  All the same as above, but his cheating was as often as has been rumored by their critics and some supporters (i.e. Trooper-gate, hundreds of women, allegations of affairs post-Monica, etc.), either due to personal demons, or because he lacks romantic attraction and affection for his wife, or some combination thereof. Hillary was personally hurt and betrayed by this, but has chosen to stay with him because she loves him and forgives him. She may or may not know the extent of his infidelity.

There is some evidence to support this. There is also a lot of extremely unreliable sources which muddy the water. Some allegations have been proved false outright. Hillary’s reason for staying is as she has presented it. To rationalize this reality, you must believe that either (1) She didn’t know the extent of the cheating and forgave him for what she did know, or (2) she knew the extent of the cheating and forgave him anyways.

#3.  All the same as above, but Hillary has chosen to stay at some point for political optics and not love. 

Some supporters and critics alike have suggested this is the reason she stays with him. It is contrary to the reason Hillary herself has presented for staying with him, as noted above. To rationalize this reality, you must believe that Hillary herself is lying about why she remained in her marriage.

#4. They have a purely political relationship. While they may have had some attraction early on, they ultimately decided to marry for a partnership of minds rather than romance or romantic love. Hillary agreed that Bill was free to seek sexual relationships outside of their marriage.

This is contrary to what has been presented by both Bill and Hillary, as well as their close associates. Anonymous sources have suggested this is the case. To rationalize this reality, you must believe that Hillary has lied about… basically her entire adult life, on every platform she has been given to discuss it.

Now, to answer your question.

  1. Do you think Bill knew/knows that Hillary deserves a better partner?
  2. Do you think Hillary ever recognized that she deserved and could have better?  

Let’s apply those to the scenarios above, in reverse order.

If you believe #4 in the list above, the questions you pose don’t apply. His cheating wasn’t something that wronged her - it was part of the agreement. The only thing for him to feel bad about was that he didn’t do a good job hiding it. Likewise for Hillary.

If you believe in #3, perhaps yes for Bill, and certainly yes for Hillary - to the extent that she remains with him only for political purposes and not out of love, which he no longer earns.

If you go with #1 or #2, then we start getting a bit closer to what I think is reality, and the questions are interesting to explore.

Do you think Hillary ever recognized that she deserved and could have better?

Now, my answer isn’t going to be a popular one. I honestly just don’t believe that she thinks this way. I’ve never read or heard anything from her that indicates these feelings. Now to be fair, if she had these thoughts at any point, it’s very unlikely that they would be expressed publicly. However, even shortly after the cheating with Monica came to light, here’s Diane Blair’s summary of their conversation on the topic:

He has been her best friend for 25 years, her husband for 23 years, they’r [sic] connected in every way imaginable … ever since he took office they’ve been going thru [sic] personal tragedy … and immediately all the ugly forces started making up hateful things about them … she didn’t realize the toll it was taking on him. … She thinks she was not smart enough, not sensitive enough, not free enough of her own concerns and struggles to realize the price he was paying.

That sounds like a woman who took on much of his failings as some of her own - not one who was thinking about what else she deserved or could have had with someone else. I am not saying that this way of thinking is right (in fact, I find it heartbreaking) - but that is HRC’s own presentation of the situation at the time to a close friend. She may have come to change her thinking since then, but she wasn’t exactly a spring chicken at the time of the conversation, and this wasn’t the first brush with Bill’s infidelity. (Let’s also address, for a moment, that this could have been total B/S on her part and she just wanted to present this reality to Diane - depends on whether you think HRC is a liar or not. If you believe in #3 or #4 above, you might.)

In terms of better - I think it depends on what better means. I’m sure she’s aware that she could have had someone different, someone who didn’t cheat. But she made her choices, and I believe with full agency. I think she had a good idea of the trade-offs of being with Bill, but felt the good in him outweighed the lacks and failings. Different? Sure. But “better” is relative. More on that in her words to Diane:

Bill has done brilliant things as president, she believes in those issues and causes and will continue to fight for them. … So – she’s in it for the long haul … mostly because she knows who she is and what her values and priorities are and she’s straight with those – she really is okay.

And then there’s Hillary’s own explanation for why she stayed with Bill. In Living History, it comes down to “a love that has persisted for decades.” Not just the accomplishment or the politics - but love. And a lifetime of it. What she perceives as a lifetime of love.

When I think of the partnership between the two of them, I think it was forged out of both deep love and admiration, and a knowledge of what they could accomplish together. I think Hillary always saw the bigger picture - it was never about who could be “better” for her, personally. It was about the fact that the two of them could change the world, even if he did fuck up all the time. That trade-off was worth it, and she was willing to forgive his weakness in order to make their impact on history. And she loved him, still.

Do you think Bill knew/knows that Hillary deserves a better partner?

I do. There are many things he’s said to indicate this. Here’s a quote that I think encapsulates it - and one of my favorites from him:

I always loved her a lot, but not always well.

He knows.