!jon snow

anonymous asked:

Can I ask for an opinion on Jon and Daenerys as a couple? (Showverse, bookverse, or both.) A lot of people seem to think that they are endgame, but I just can't see it. I've always seen them as very different people, with different values/ways of leading. I also can easily see Dany feeling threatened by R+L=J, as it presents a challenge to her claim, especially w/ Jon as KitN (show, future in books???) All in all, conflict seems more likely to me than romance, but apparently I'm in the minority.

We’ll be answering this in book context (though with some show context mixed in since you’re mentioning the show in your ask), since we’re likely to get answers on this front in less than a month for the show.  Additionally, whether or not they are endgame is tricky to answer and will depend on the survival of both characters–which isn’t certain at this point.  

I’ve always seen them as very different people, with different values/ways of leading. 

They are both very different people, as crafted by their experience, but their leadership styles contain important similarities along with their differences which.

Both bend the institutions they lead in order to help those in need.  In Jon’s case it is giving shelter to the Free Folk who are fleeing the Others north of the Wall; in Dany’s it is ending Slavery in Slaver’s Bay.  They both must handle the fallout of those actions as well, since the institution fights back against their leadership: in Jon’s case you have his assassination; in Dany’s you have assassination attempts and the siege of Meereen.  The fact that both of them are willing to throw institutions out the window to help those in need is a vital point of comparison for it shows that they are both driven by an idealistic compassion, and that when things are bad, it is the helpless who suffer first.

Jon’s learning of leadership stems from the north: from his adoptive father, from Jeor Mormont, from Mance Rayder and the Free Folk, and from his tenure as Lord Commander of the Knight’s Watch.  Daenerys learned leadership from the Dothraki and from Slaver’s Bay.  [There is an inherent racism to the nature in which Martin crafted her arc in which both the Dothraki and the residents of Slaver’s Bay are stepping stones to Westeros.]

What is also important for both is that they are both learning on the job.  Daenerys is learning as she goes how to handle the political snares she has made for herself.  Furthermore, both are frustrated at how slowly those around them are learning to adjust to their leadership–whether rightfully or wrongfully.  In Jon’s case, it becomes a major pain point: 

They know nothing, Ygritte. And worse, they will not learn. (Jon XIII, ADWD)

The reason we bring both of these two things up is that these, more than what their political values are, are what’s going to determine whether they can work through conflict towards a common goal.  Their youth and experience has taught both to listen, but it also means that they both are still learning, while also seeking to champion those who need them.  There is likely to be initial conflict–there always is when you get two people in a room who have never met and who have needs that are different than the other.  But it is clear that Martin is setting up both to be heroic in the war against the Others (and has even berated those who posted a wish that Dany would die at the end of the series on his notablog).  And he has equipped both with the capacity to work through their differences and to have a very similar thing that makes them tick which will be vital common ground for them.

I also can easily see Dany feeling threatened by R+L=J, as it presents a challenge to her claim, especially w/ Jon as KitN (show, future in books???)

In the event that Jon does become King in the North in the books–not out of the question, by any means–then our guess is he’s going to be doing his best to shore up alliances with those outside his house.  The north suffered heavily from the War of the Five Kings: many of their fighting men were killed at the Red Wedding or are being held hostage; their harvest was not as bountiful as it should have been because many men went south and there was disagreement over how much to set aside; and of course the army of the undead coming down will hit them first and hit them viciously.  Jon will know all this if he is crowned and will need help from the outside if he wants his kingdom to survive.

For Dany to feel threatened by R+L=J, she’d have to know about R+L=J, and it’s important to note that very few people know about that, even if the reader can guess.  Howland Reed knows, and perhaps his children–though that is not necessarily a given.  Benjen Stark likely knows.  Bran–with his windows into the past–may find out.  But that’s it.  The shoe will likely drop and at an inconvenient moment because that’s what makes for interesting reading, but far more likely to cause initial conflict for Dany and her reign is the fact that–if Jon is King in the North–the North is declaring an independence within the kingdoms she sees as her birthright.  In the event that Jon isn’t crowned, it’s even harder to know what circumstances will be like when they meet, but if he’s not a king, and she doesn’t know that R+L=J, then they won’t be meeting as political equals–at least in the sense of titles and so Jon can’t be a threat to her claim anymore than someone like Cersei (indeed, he’d be a good deal less of a threat than Cersei).

All in all, conflict seems more likely to me than romance, but apparently I’m in the minority.

Lastly–We don’t see why it can’t be both.  Jon is a careful military ruler and he knows the threat that three dragons can pose and he may not want to oppose her militarily even if they might have political conflicts to begin with.  There is a great deal of pride in the north that Torrhen Stark knelt to Aegon the Conqueror and none of his men died.  If Jon doesn’t oppose her militarily, that means we may get many arguments.  Stannis’ stay at the Wall is a sign that Jon doesn’t take the demands of a ruler and run with it.  But if that’s a start point and they work towards a common goal when fighting a war against the undead, it’s certainly not off the table that they might become lovers at some point.

The Son(g) of Ice and Fire

I saw someone commenting on a George RR Martin interview where he talks about why he named the series Ice and Fire. This person seemed to assume that George’s answer meant that Jon and Daenerys represent Ice and Fire together, respectively, which is something I have always very vocally disagreed with, and will continue to do until Martin himself tells me I’m wrong (that means Dan and David and their fanfic freakshow and magazine covers are irrelevant to me). 

Originally posted by to-eternal-darkness

I read/listened to this interview a long, long time ago, and it never gave me the impression that my idea of what the Song of Ice and Fire means, is wrong… 
Here’s why:


Keep reading

The Son of Prophecy (1)

I’ve seen some excellent meta on both Jon and Dany’s parallels to Henry VII and I’ve been thinking about sharing my own thoughts on that for a while. I must say that this is not what I’d originally planned to write, but it’s what it naturally evolved into.

First of all I’d like to argue that I have to establish what’s the most essential part of the story and to me, that’s the North. Of course it’s also about Dany and the dragons, about the Others and about Tyrion and his family, about the game of thrones, but the Starks and the North are at the heart of this story. It’s where it all started.

What is this story absolutely not about? The answer might surprise you: the Iron Throne. So doesn’t the Iron Throne have a huge role in the story? Yes, it does, I think the Iron Throne is to ASOIAF what the One Ring is to LOTR, a tangible symbol of power as a divisive and corrupting force.

Such a symbol cannot be allowed to survive the end of the story. So I think we need to move away from the idea of the Seven Kingdoms as united under the Iron Throne and think in terms of a power centre in the North.

GRRM has drawn a great deal of inspiration from the Wars of the Roses, and while I was reading up on it, I came across an interesting detail, namely the Welsh legend of Y Mab Darogan, or the Son of Prophecy, or alternatively the Son of Destiny.

The legend says that a descendant of the last King of Britain, Cadwaladr, will drive the Saxons out of Britain and take Wales back for the original Welshmen, the Britons. It also predicts that a Briton will be crowned King of England.

In ASOAIF, the in-universe equivalent of the Britons are the First Men and the Andals are a parallel to the Saxons. This whole idea of an older ethnic/cultural group throwing off foreign domination can be seen in the story in the Northern Independence plot.

What’s the link with the Wars of the Roses? Henry Tudor’s claim that he was Y Mab Darogan gained him an immense number of supporters in Wales. He wasn’t the first person believed to be the Son of Prophecy, but he did end up taking the throne.

When Henry landed on the Welsh shores, he raised the banner of Cadwaladr, which looks like this.

Henry is not only a descendant of the Britons, but also claims dragon ancestry. In the ASOIAF universe there is only one important character who significantly identifies with his First Men ancestry, but also has dragon blood and that is Jon Snow.

I’m also going to point out that the colours of this banner are very similar to the colours of the Stark banners on the show, but I don’t believe that’s necessarily important.

I’ve already pointed out in a previous post that this is what Henry’s personal coat of arms looks like. Jon Snow being both a dragon and as of season 6 hailed as the white wolf seems to be a nod to Henry’s red dragon and white dog.

So is Jon Snow going to end up on the Iron Throne? No, there will be no Iron Throne in the end, but Jon might become King of a new united kingdom, with the centre of power being further north (If it’s not in the North itself, I have a weird feeling it could be Harrenhal).

Is this what I want for Jon Snow? Not really… But the end is supposed to be bittersweet. I guess Jon could refuse the crown, which is not unimaginable, but in the end he’s a creature of duty and if he thinks it’s the right thing to do, he’ll accept the burden.

I plan on writing a second part, drawing parallels between the legends of the Son of Prophecy and that of the Prince that was Promised.