Listen, time for wisdom:
There will never be a trans-inclusive "All-Girl" space.
Fundamentally, to define a space as "All-Female" or even "All-Women" is to define the term female or woman. Both of those things are nebulous at best, and that means they will, usually, resort to the usual take: "Woman means adult human female." And "Female means a fertile, vagina-having, motherly, She/Her cisfem." TERF shit.
The only people who would make a rule with such a premise are TERFs themselves or traumatized cis women who really do believe that the mere presence of a man is a threat to their safety. Neither of which--as you're probably already aware--are going to be very trans-inclusive.
We can talk about why people think this way another time. For now the important part is, if you want to feel safer or more socially integrated, seek out all-queer or all-trans spaces, not all-woman spaces. Queer people will understand you more than cis people ever could.
(And yes theoretically this applies to trans men as well if you replace every feminine thing with a masculine one. Gender restrictions are antithetical to trans people as a whole.)
Wow this is really educational and informative yes, and thank you for putting it in the “fuck TERFs” tag.
Being a female has nothing to do with being ‘fertile’ or ‘motherly’, and doesn’t even have anything to do with being Cis or gender conforming. You can be female and still be gender non conforming - I wear exclusively pants and have short hair and work with tools and don’t have a motherly bone in my body and I’m still a female.
And I’m glad that you’re coming out and saying all-female spaces are inherently transphobic, because it puts right out in the open what women have known for a long time - that one of the major goals of the current trans-rights movement is to completely do away with female spaces and women as a social class altogether.
The fact that you had to suggest that women must have been traumatized to dare seek out a single-sex space is quite telling of your views on women. Must fraternity members in all-male fraternities share a history of being victimized at the hands of females, and that’s why they joined a frat? Do you think all-male organizations like the Shriners, or the Free Masons, or any number of social fraternities cropped up because the epidemic of violence against men by women was so dangerous that they needed spaces to themselves? Do you think men like Mike Pence, who openly refuse to hire women to ~avoid temptation~ are doing so because they’re victims of sexual violence at the hands of women? Or do you think it’s fine for men to have their own spaces, but the instant a woman does it, the only explanation is that she is consumed by her own victimhood and trauma.
We live in a world where men run just about everything. They hold the vast majority of property, they run a majority of all major corporations and industries, they head the governing bodies of almost all worldwide religions, they make up a bulk of the military and police forces. They run a bulk of radio stations and are the heads of publishing companies and direct your movies and television shows - they put out the media that you consume on a daily basis that tells you how to think and look and feel. When women try to inch into these spaces, they’re pushed back out by men.
If you’re born female, you have a right to female-only and women’s-only spaces, and it’s male oppression and female rebellion that has granted you that right, no matter how you identify or look or adhere to gender roles.
It’s not women who have decided that women’s rights and trans rights are incompatible, or who created a world so hostile to women that women’s-only spaces are necessary for a second of peace.
Nah, this is just TERF shit.
"...to completely do away with female spaces and women as a social class altogether." is actually a great idea.
What is a woman anyway? Why should they be treated any differently from men? Why are they a social class? It's kind of ridiculous. And historically, it hasn't even been guaranteed to non-white women anyway. Gender as a concept is just an oppressive one.
Men aren't real. Women aren't real. If you have trouble understanding, that's a you problem.
Men and women aren’t real, and yet it’s women in the US who only won the right to vote 100 years ago. Men and women aren’t real, and yet it’s women who has a 1/6 chance of being raped in her lifetime by a man. Men and women aren’t real, but it’s women who weren’t allowed to wear pants on the Senate floor until the 1990s. Men and women aren’t real, and yet magically the US had have only male presidents…maybe we’ve just had several hundred years of uniquely bitchy women that caused us to never have a female president, since it’s obviously not systemic oppression.
Men and women aren’t real, yet my mom’s male employers knew which employee (female) to underpay for several decades at her work compared to her (male) counterparts. How strange it was the woman who was underpaid and not the rest of the men. What strange thing did her male counterparts all posses that made them all receive higher paychecks than her?
Men and women aren’t real, yet it’s women who make up the vast majority of prostituted individuals worldwide, across all countries. What a strange coincidence.
Men and women aren’t real, yet it’s women athletes who are receiving dozens of millions of dollars less in athletic scholarships per year compared to men athletes… weird right? And it’s the men who have access to high salaries in professional sports leagues like the MLB, the NHL, the NFL, and the like…how strange that women (which aren’t real) just consistently drew the short straws when it comes to being able to make sports a career.
And the women in Saudi Arabia that just got the right to vote and drive this decade…don’t they know that the difference between a man and a woman is a white concept?! Or is Saudi Arabia a white enough country….hmm. Are the women in Nepal considered white too, and that’s why they’re forced into period huts when they’re menstruating? You should tell the governments of South America that femicide isn’t a real crime since women aren’t real, and you should tell the women of India and China that there’s no difference between men and women, and there’s no reason they have been participating in sex-selective abortions for decades. How on earth do all these non-white countries participate in these white male/female or man/women binaries?! Makes no sense.
So many very odd coincidences in a world where women and men aren’t even real. How odd. It must be that the entire world is made up of Trans Exclusive Radical Feminists as well. Did the TERFS right the Bible that told men to never suffer a woman to speak? Did the TERFs write the Quran that dictated women are less likely to reach paradise after death because they weren’t submissive enough to their husbands, or that they were dirty while menstruating?! Damn, those TERFs seem to have been around longer than any writings on radical feminism even existed…how strange.
I’m so glad that because you’ve declared that women and men aren’t real, all the sex gender-based oppression went away. Hooray!!! You’ve solved sexism.
Okay, I see what you're saying, but just because it's viewed by an oppressive society as being a real thing doesn't mean that it's actually a real thing.
Our gender roles came about in order to justify slavery, and further dehumanize black people, actually. I'm not really qualified to elaborate much, but... just keep that in mind.
Our idea of what a man or woman is was engineered entirely so that European slavers could say that black people couldn't be women or men, but rather this blurred-line third thing. This idea has inspired our beauty standards and our legal system in ways that have oppressed women.
To say that women have not suffered under the patriarchy is delusional, they absolutely have and it's really bad, and it needs to stop.
That doesn't mean that a woman is a real thing, though.
"Gender" isn't real, "Race" isn't real, "Sexuality" isn't real... it's all just...bullshit. Products of an oppressive society.
There's only "people." And people have little differences, but you can't generalize them or group them into categories, because, as it turns out, none of those categories are real.
Saying that it isn't real is saying that it should stop being recognized, not that it already isn't. It's saying that whatever "biological differences" are between the sexes, they're insignificant. That dividing them is useless, and morally incorrect.
Do not take pride in a fake line.
You’re so full of shit it’s not even funny. “Race isn’t real” you’re right, it’s not, but I bet your ass had no problem understanding the difference between the Black Lives Matter and All Lives Matter movements, now did it.
As long as women are oppressed, women will have a need for female-only and women’s-only spaces. As long as a woman can be beaten and raped and murdered for being a woman, as long as little girls have their clitorises cut off and female fetuses are killed before birth for being female, as long as preschool girls are being sexually abused by men because they are girls, then a woman is a real thing.
“If a woman speaks out of turn, then her teeth shall be smashed by a brick.” - 2400 BC, some of the first written laws in ancient Sumer. The oppression of women is as old as the written word, older than the concept of Europe itself. In 1700 BC, a woman was required to be a virgin to be married - are you gonna pull a single quote from a book written by a traveling French aristocrat in revolutionary USA to prove the West created the concept of virginity too? Tumblr loooooves to regurgitate the lie that gender roles were “invented” to tell the difference between male and female slaves vs white plantation owners over and over again, and none of you even know where it originates!
Tell me, if slavers didn’t know the difference between men and women, how did the white men know which slaves to rape over and over again to grow their enslaved population? You think Thomas Jefferson just *guessed* which of his slaves to keep fucking until one of them popped out kids for him? Or do you think he could tell the difference, and perhaps treated the men vs the women differently based on their bodies and their reproductive capabilities?
You’re a fool. But your foolishness is spreading, and it’s hurting women and girls. Don’t choke on your own pretension.
If women aren’t real, then neither are trans women. If men aren’t real, than neither are trans men.
You’re emulating something. You know what that something is. You know who we are. The material reality is right there, and you act like pretending it doesn’t exist somehow makes you smart, makes you progressive, but all it does is make you look like a fool.
Talk yourself in circles all you want.
I’ll go farther!
If women aren’t real, then neither are Feminists, because feminists fight for the liberation of women, right? So no women, no feminists.
And if no feminists, then no radical feminists.
And if no radical feminists, well then…what does TERF stand for again?
I'd like to point out that this idea that tras keep putting out, that other peoples and cultures didn't know what men or women were until white slavers and colonizers came along is absolutely racist and more on par with white supremacist beliefs.
The idea that other people and cultures didn't know what a woman or a man was until the white man came along is incredibly racist.
