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PaunchyDrunk

@paunchydrunk

I am delightful.
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toastcon

(based on what I’ve heard from others!) one of the most interesting things I’m looking forward to analyzing when my book arrives is the meta narrative of Katniss and Peeta almost exorcising Panem’s ghosts (just noting all the connections between them and Snow people have mentioned) - what’re people’s thoughts? redemptive arc for Panem? ironic comeuppance for Snow and his demons?

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This is a fantastic question. What are your guys’ thoughts? 

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My initial reaction was (maybe still is?) that Collins usurped all the important symbolism tied to Katniss in order to tell a more ‘on message’ story.

But the Katniss and Peeta as exorcists idea is appealing.

While I totally agree right now, I’m hoping that my reread will help me break that down and find deeper meaning. But here’s my answer prior to yours.

I think that a lot of people are getting caught up in the literary aspect and we really need to take into account all angles. This is still a war story. SC specifically said the story is exploring what do people need to survive. So I would consider this an extension of THG trilogy in a different way than we view an actual prequel, time line wise yes it is a prequel but subject wise it’s like a major character study, of THG characters and the character of humanity. The further you get along the more you realize how Ballad characters parallel THG characters. Going back to decentralizing the literary aspect, the focus of the narrative is less about the main character which is why I think a lot of people are struggling with it, myself included. The story is actually not about Snow, he is a vehicle for exploring themes presented, specifically the ramifications of war, not just individually but as a country. So no, I don’t see THG as a redemptive arc for Panem or a comeuppance for Snow. The downfall of Panem began long before it became Panem and Snow is not wholly responsible for the atrocities of Panem. But like I had mentioned previously I plan to reread THG to make lots of notes in relation to Ballad. This is all super initial reaction without tons of deep digging. We could bring this up again in 6 months and I might have a totally different view.

I agree that this book isn’t a prequel in the normal sense of the word. It’s a cautionary tale and a social commentary. Snow and Sejanus and Lucy Gray and others are foils and/or mirrors of the characters we know and love from the original books. The difference is that (just like Harry Potter) Katniss and Peeta make choices to be compassionate and kind toward others and to look outside of themselves. Snow makes choices that ultimately lead to the destruction of others for his own personal gain.

Yes, I also think the shared symbolism and parallels are there to force us into making comparisons between Snow and Katniss & co. It's like Suzanne Collins slapping you in the face if you start thinking "he's got a point..."

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I know everyone’s freaking out about Snow smut lol but why isn’t anyone talking about all the new things we’re learning about Panem???

  • There are universities in the Capitol.
  • The Hunger Games were originally just tributes dumped in an amphitheater with some weapons.
  • D4 and D11 tributes were top contenders, behind D1 and D2. Possibly this is because their tributes had experience with weapons and were kept fit by physical labour (though you’d expect the other farming districts to also be up there if that were the case. Hmmm...). I wonder when and how D4 became a career district?
  • Livia CARDEW
  • Tribute mentors were originally young Capitolites.
  • Many Capitol citizens avoided watching Games.

OK you can go back to thinking about Snow’s wrinkly old balls now.

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META: Peeta’s mother restricted his access to food.

“Did you eat?” I ask.  “I’m sorry to say I gobbled down three pieces of that groosling before I realized it might have to last a while. Don’t worry, I’m back on a strict diet.”  “No, it’s good. You need to eat. I’ll go hunting soon,” I say. 

(The Hunger Games, page 291, hardcover) 

When I’ve read these sections of the book in the past, I’ve always chalked Peeta’s reactions to being in the arena, where food is scarce, but I’m beginning to wonder i there’s more to his relationship with food than what we see. This isn’t the only time he apologizes to Katniss for eating. 

I know Peeta’s mother is Just The Worst in this fandom, but I think the habit of contributing everything bad in Peeta’s life to her often does a disservice to the message that everyone suffers under the system. Peeta’s family eats stale bread because their family, while more affluent than Katniss’, is still poor and can’t afford to waste food. He is disgusted by the overindulgence he sees in the Capitol because he’s from a district where his trash gets raided by kids.

Remember who the real enemy is.

As i said at the end of this post: 

It could be genuine scarcity that gave Peeta his familiarity with hunger, but I really feel, considering how frequently he apologizes for eating, that Katniss isn’t the only person who has been hungry, and that Peeta went hungry with food in his cabinets. It’s very common for abusive mothers specifically to restrict their children’s access to food. 

I’m not saying that the stale baked goods was instead of food that they could afford, Im saying that the habit of frequently apologizing for eating alone, when observed in abused kids is usually the result of disordered eating that comes less from general food insecurity like Katniss faced but from a kind of food insecurity that is heavily enforced, like by a mother who restricts your access to said stale food.  Also: more than one thing can be bad at a time! Peeta Mellark was allowed to be physically and emotionally abused by his mother because nobody in Panem gives a shit about children. That’s part of the ~real enemy~ both in panem and in the real world. 

Peeta was angry about the ipecac because he uh. has a heart and a soul and is the first person to bring up a rebellion in the text of the series. It’s just also the sort of thing that I can imagine somebody who was food insecure on a personal level taking very personally. 

But his apologising makes sense in context. He is, as you note, trapped in an environment where it’s uncertain where the next meal might come from. If anything, him realising he should have saved more of the food only after having eaten it suggests he isn’t used to rationing food.

And if we’re going to interpret the books using real world experiences, then we have to remember it’s only very recently that corporeal punishment of children became frowned upon. It wasn’t too long ago that teachers were allowed and expected to cane or paddle students. Even now people still spank their kids, though it’s far more common in POC and low income families *. Given this, I find it hard to believe Katniss’ upbringing was the norm in this world where violence (especially violence against children) is so normalised. Is it then appropriate to be vilifying Peeta’s mother, rather than just her behavior, as if this individual is just a bad egg rather than it being a problem with the system or culture? This is what I mean by certain characterisations undermining the themes of the book. It’s sociological vs psychological storytelling (ew GOT).

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying we shouldn’t scrutinize Mama Mellark. I just think fandom has gone a bit too overboard with the idea that she’s The Witch. Fanfics depict her as completely unredeemable. She’s a petty gossip, greedy, narcissistic, picks specifically on Peeta for some reason, flies into histrionics, and is hated by her family who feel nothing when she dies. It’s understandable for fanfiction, which is a ship centered medium and so characters likely to oppose the ship make for natural antagonists (though we should be more careful to not have Mrs Mellark be a sexist caricature).

But I feel too much of this bleeds into interpretations of canon. Every interpretation of her is coloured by the idea that Mrs Mellark is The Worst, when it isn’t that clear who Peeta’s mother is or what sort of relationship Peeta has with her. For example, Peeta thinks his father wanted daughters instead of three boys, not his mother. Yet the whole fandom takes it as fact that horrible Mrs Mellark doesn’t love Peeta because she didn’t a girl. Another example: Peeta agrees with Katniss that his parents would be less than thrilled with him shacking up with a girl from the Seam. It’s always only the mother (and sometimes one of the brothers, who is Mama’s fav) who is prejudiced against it though.

* I’m reminded of a few Daily Show segments where Trevor Noah briefly jokes about getting whoppin’s as a child, and the audience (probably largely liberal white middle class) gets uncomfortable. Being totally anecdotal here, but I find this is the general attitude most poc have towards smacking/spanking etc children, even if they wouldn’t practice it themselves.

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META: Peeta’s mother restricted his access to food.

“Did you eat?” I ask.  “I’m sorry to say I gobbled down three pieces of that groosling before I realized it might have to last a while. Don’t worry, I’m back on a strict diet.”  “No, it’s good. You need to eat. I’ll go hunting soon,” I say. 

(The Hunger Games, page 291, hardcover) 

When I’ve read these sections of the book in the past, I’ve always chalked Peeta’s reactions to being in the arena, where food is scarce, but I’m beginning to wonder i there’s more to his relationship with food than what we see. This isn’t the only time he apologizes to Katniss for eating. 

I know Peeta’s mother is Just The Worst in this fandom, but I think the habit of contributing everything bad in Peeta’s life to her often does a disservice to the message that everyone suffers under the system. Peeta’s family eats stale bread because their family, while more affluent than Katniss’, is still poor and can’t afford to waste food. He is disgusted by the overindulgence he sees in the Capitol because he’s from a district where his trash gets raided by kids.

Remember who the real enemy is.

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lorata
Anonymous asked:

Do you think Foxface made a mistake or suicided out?

One of the things I really like about characters in the Hunger Games and this issue in particular is that there’s no definitive answer: you can make arguments either way, both from a character/psychological and a meta/narrative perspective, but in the end it’s left ambiguous on purpose. It’s entirely reasonable to argue that as smart as Foxface is, she’s still from an urban district so all her survival plant knowledge would be theoretical – and moreover, plant identification comes from studying the leaves, as it’s very difficult to tell berries apart once they’ve been picked. It’s all about which version you prefer.

That said, I am in the “suicided out” camp. She’d been starving, her opponents were strong, relatively well-supplied and in better condition – not to mention a strong sponsor following for 2/3 of them – and at this point it’s not unthinkable to imagine she just wanted a way out. Remember also that she’d gotten her bag (full of something she “desperately needed”) from the feast two days ago; if she’d rationed her food, she probably would have just run out: she wouldn’t be so desperate now that a handful of berries would have been the difference between life or death, and especially not worth the risk of being caught. 

I should specify, though, that I am not among the “Foxface committed suicide so that Katniss could win” crowd. If people want to write that then go for it, and I’m not going to write meta posts trashing someone else’s interpretation, but that’s not a thing I’m interested in and it’s not my headcanon.

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Ambiguous is a bit of an overstatement, I feel. I don’t mean to step on anyone’s headcanons or theories, but ambiguous would suggest the author nudged us in the “suicided out” direction as much as she fed us the straight version...which she didn’t. That doesn’t mean there isn’t room for fan theories, but there just aren’t any hints of something more going on in the pages.

Anyway, I think Katniss’ interpretation of the event fits the character better, symbolically. Foxes are scavengers. And what was Foxface doing before she died?

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sunfortune

the gale/prim stunt was so cheap too bc narratively killing prim didn’t do ANYTHING and it was only written so suzanne collins could easily solve the dumbass love triangle She CREATED. so katniss loses her sister, her mom leaves, And her best friend from childhood leaves. and what she has at the end is fucking uhhhh Peeta Parker and some kids she never even wanted ???? like ?? gale was a whole antifa legend for 2.9 books and she ruined All that at the VERY end for some romance?! completely glossing over the fact that katniss did not romantically want to be with either of them!!!! 

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brinnanza

the whole reason prim died is because it IS senseless. like that is literally the point. 

suzanne collins and ka applegate are cut from a similar cloth and that cloth is refusing to shy away from depicting how brutal, how senseless, how cruel war is. prim died for no reason and that is the point. it had absolutely nothing to do with resolving a love triangle.

also Y’ALL COME ON the presence of romance in a book does not make the book A Romance; the ‘love triangle’ was literally never ever the point - which is why it’s what the capitol focuses on. 

also katniss’s happy ever after: she fuckin grew up, y’all, come on. listen, I get the knee jerk hate for a baby boomer-style happily ever afters (I will sue jk rowling in court for the epilogue) but the fact that katniss, after everything she went through, felt comfortable enough to settle down with peeta and actually have kids - kids she knew were not going to be thrown into a gladiatorial arena for the entertainment of the super wealthy - is proof that what she did mattered. it cost katniss goddamn near everything she had - her family, her friends, her hearing, her home - but it was still the right thing to do.

the hunger games is about the cost of revolution: it’s so, so high, but in the end, it’s necessary.

Furthering this, Katniss said she didn’t want kids because she didn’t want to bring them into the world she grew up in. The fact that Katniss grows up to have kids is supposed to show the reader that the world has indeed changed for the better. Not wanting kids was conditional, and the conditions changed.

I have no horse in this race because I didn’t finish the Hunger Games books. I just want to point out that J.K. Rowling is not a “baby boomer”. She was born in 1965, making her a member of Generation X. Suzanne Collins was born in 1962, just a few years before the cutoff for Boomers/Gen Xers. They are roughly the same age. There is no generational difference between the two.

And what’s more, the happy ending cliche does not come from the Boomer generation. In fact, that generation was known in part for YA books with downer/ambiguous endings (such as those found in S.E. Hinton’s work, “The Egypt Game” and “From the Mixed-Up Files of Mrs. Basil E. Frankenweiler”.) These endings drastically differed from the previous literary canon of namby-pamby YA books with moralistic, glurgey endings (Enid Blyton, etc).

Please stop blaming anything you don’t like on Boomers. Please learn some history.

1) it didn’t cost Katniss her hearing the Capitol fixes it at the end of the first book and she never has any problems with it and there’s never anything to suggest it will ever stop working. Katniss is only deaf for part of the first book. Peeta, however, loses a leg in the first book and spends the rest of the series with a prosthetic. 

2) Gale being practically an anarchist (anti-fa is actually a pretty good description of him) and then suddenly going all gung ho for district 13 was a little weird, though not really unrealistic, and Gale’s “involvement” in Prim’s death was definitely a way out of the love triangle. Katniss is pretty much like “I can’t even look at you anymore”

3) the love triangle was a huge part of the series. It was. A huge amount of Catching Fire is devoted to it. The series is much more than a love triangle but the love triangle is still a big deal. I always hated how the love triangle destroyed their friendship, I would have much rather had her have a friendship. 

4) Katniss having kids with Peeta made me really uncomfortable when I read it while in the target age demographic because of the way it’s written. She specifically says she didn’t want kids, after the war is over and she’s married to Peeta, he wanted kids and she didn’t and he spent 15 years convincing her. And then the first pregnancy was really traumatic and totally freaked her out and the second pregnancy was only slightly less traumatic. The vibe I got from it as a teenager girl reading it was that Peeta pressured her into having children. I don’t think that was intentional on the author’s part but readers who describe the ending as Katniss having kids she didn’t want aren’t getting it from nowhere. 

5) shut the fuck up about the Harry Potter epilogue already

6) generational difference lmao what planet is this

7) I scroll past so many posts on my dash demanding happy endings and mocking the idea of ever wanting a dark or mixed ending so young people claiming happy endings are a boomer thing and millennials/gen z are oh so cool because they appreciate dark endings is hilarious. 

“It took five, ten, fifteen years for me to agree.“

I can see why people misinterpret this to mean Peeta pressured her, but the text doesn’t say “It took five, ten, fifteen years for him to convince me”. She bore children willingly. Twice. People can read the passage however they want, but I don’t think you can make the Katniss-was-pressured interpretation without ignoring how OOC it would be for both characters, or how it little sense it would make thematically.

Other points to make:

  • Gale wasn’t an anarchist. There’s nothing to suggest he rejected all states or authorities; he just objected to the government that oppressed him.
  • Gale’s involvement in Prim’s death wasn’t “a way out of the love triangle”. His and Katniss’ relationship wouldn’t have survived the war regardless of whether this happened or not because of their increasingly diverging values. Rather, it was the climax of his character arc, the moment we see how destructive his vengeance is. IDK why you have “involvement” in quotations. You can’t tell me he designed bombs that target first responders, never intending for them to be used.
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(Page 352, CF) Collins, through Katniss’ observations (who *has* been keeping her eye on the boy with the bread all these years), is telling us here that Peeta’s social life was *not* that of a popular, well-liked, handsome, athletic boy. In fact, he had only a “handful” of friends who would “get on” if he died in the terrible fate of being subjected to the Games TWICE? We are being told this was, in fact. Peeta’s reality. It tells us so much about his daily life before being reaped.

His silver tongue for the Capitol and the Games were ever really employed to benefit Katniss. He tells her she’s ‘his whole life.’ (The page before.) At home, his family doesn’t need him, doesn’t visit him, and his friends will move on, and also don’t visit him. How guarded was he with people? Peeta was from an abusive home, someone who devoted hours to the practices of painting and drawing. He noticed others, and is *keenly* thoughtful about what’s happening around him, and about people’s sufferings, but no one really noticed him.

This has introvert written all over it for me.

Consider this, too… We speculate that his family didn’t visit him in Victors’ Village because what he said in the Games about his dad and her mom probably caused a whole host of troubles at home. But, once he’s back and has loads of money, there’s none of those “handful of friends” that he’s going to visit, either, to help with the money he has no use for- and you KNOW Peeta is the kind of guy who would help like that in a heartbeat. So, it’s hard to believe there was actually anyone he was truly close with.

I wonder- did he have such a deep draw to Katniss because she was someone who also was basically alone in what life was throwing at her, basically a loner (except for two friends- Gale and his family, and Madge… so not even a “handful”), and who bore the weight of life squarely on her own shoulders, and yet she not just survived, but came to be a District-wide icon for enduring?

How much did he watch her as they grew up?

She was probably *his* dandelion in the spring.

I’ve always wondered where Delly was? According to Delly, they were really close as kids and she knew him enough to help him in D13.

Why didn’t she visit him in the Victors Village? Why? I wonder why she didn’t come to see Peeta when they announced the Quater Quell? Why didn’t she come and see him, or cheer him on when they were training?

Katniss would’ve metnioned her in Catching Fire, she certainly spoke about Delly in Mockingjay? 

So many questions?

I always figured Delly and Peeta played together when they were kids, but weren’t friends later on (or at least, not close friends). The exchange they had in the hospital felt like they hadn’t hung out in a long time, and she only ever mentions stuff from their childhood.

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I've always been bothered by Madge's death. I feel like even though I see why it happened, I still think it was too cruel. She could have lived like Delly and her brother. I've wondered if she had lived, would Gale have had a conflict with his feelings towards Katniss or would he have developed something for Madge. It would have been a better end for them both as opposed to the canon end for them, even if canon shows the casualties of war you know? I hate that her death had to happen. (1/2)

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I love Madge. There wasn’t much of her in the books, but the little we did get was nice to read. She’s feisty. I think she would have helped Peeta in his recovery, too. And maybe she would have come back to D12 at the end of the war. Or maybe she would have gone with Gale, who knows? I know this isn’t very everlark, but to supplement, she wpuld have definitely encouraged Katniss to keep fighting for Peeta and to not give up on him. She could have been more involved. 😞 (2/2)

______________________________________________

Thanks so much for this Ask. I totally understand. Madge is definitely a beloved character because really she was Katniss’s “friend” in the day-to-day. I think you’re right. She would have been an encouragement to her and maybe even Peeta. We don’t know what kind of relationship she had with him. I don’t know if she would have ended up with Gale. I feel like that’s a real fanfic connection, but I’m into it! 😄

Heart you! 💜

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I like to think about what role Madge would have had in D13. Would she be working closely with D13 leaders because of the info she might have gleaned from her father’s work, or would those connections have gotten her the same treatment Katniss’ prep team got?

As to Gadge, I get the appeal (who doesn’t like a good enemies-to-lovers?), but I can’t see it happening in a MJ-AU where Madge is Katniss’ emotional support. Gale would be too resentful of Madge taking his place as Katniss’ bff.

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katamount

What was Gary Ross thinking when he had Peeta run around the arena unarmed near the end of the movie?! 

And why in the world did Suzanne Collins agree to that? Running around the arena unarmed is just dumb. (Even Rue had a homemade slingshot in the book.) Katniss and Peeta protect each other—they’re a team. At this point in the book, Peeta is armed with a knife. (And remember, even the Careers remarked that Peeta’s handy with a knife.) If he’s defenseless, he’s nothing but a liability to Katniss, and book Peeta would not have let that happen. The first movie insults viewers’ intelligence by assuming they wouldn’t be able to see Katniss as strong unless they undermined Peeta’s strengths by portraying him as weaker than Collins makes him in the books. They each have their own strengths and they complement each other’s. Collins plays with gender stereotypes with Katniss and Peeta in the trilogy, and our heroine is definitely a badass, but in the book, they are worthy of each other. With his portrayal of Peeta, Gary Ross (the director of the first Hunger Games movie), made viewers question Peeta’s worthiness, which undermined the Everlark/endgame story arc throughout the film series. (Why?)

This is a tricky yet interesting topic of discussion! And I definitely have numerous thoughts running through my head, so let’s see if I can organize them all somewhat cohesively here lol. For starters, THG definitely plays with the typical gender roles. Katniss is depicted saving her male counterpoint quite a few times throughout the franchise, as opposed to being the stereotypical “damsel in distress” trope. Definitely makes her come off as more badass, but it tends to make mainstream audiences automatically associate Peeta with weakness.

But he’s certainly not, and we know he’s not. Just because he gets himself into a lot of sticky situations in both the books and movies shouldn’t undermine his strength or his character in general. I suppose a male character showing any sort of weak/soft spot makes them automatically useless in the eyes of the mainstream.

SO THEN. Shifting back to your argument, I’m not even sure having Peeta unarmed makes a difference to the general audience. I imagine that what made him weak in their eyes was the fact that he was saved by Katniss down by the river, and he was the one who needed to be nursed back to health. Which of course, was also in the books. They see him struggling and INSTANTLY regard him as useless/weak. Like, I can remember my friend’s older brother calling him a pussy at the end of Catching Fire, simply because he had scenes in that movie which required him to receive aid from others.

Which is interesting, because Peeta definitely kicked ass all throughout the franchise. He literally threw Cato off of Katniss’ numerous times at the end of THG. He killed that one tribute underwater at the beginning of the Quarter Quell. He wrestled the Monkey Mutts off of Katniss and saved her from drowning. He also wrestled the Lizard Mutts off of Katniss as well. (Not to mention that he killed friggin Brutus as well even though that was implied/off screen and probably not something that general audiences picked up on)

Despite all of his visible feats of strength, one little ounce of him struggling is all it takes to mark him as a weakling. The concept of masculinity is so strange and fragile, let me tell you lmao. It’s like- CAN’T HAVE A MALE CHARACTER ACTING LIKE A HUMAN WITH LEGITIMATE STRENGTHS AND WEAKNESSES, OH NO. MUST BE 100% STRONG. MUST BE EMOTIONLESS. HE???? HAS FEELINGS????? HE????? STRUGGLES??????? HE MUST BE A LITTLE GIRL THEN LMAO

But anyway, I almost wonder if he was unarmed because they were going to focus on Katniss and Peeta’s highest skills for the final battle. Remember how Katniss and Peeta were talking about each other’s best skills at the table with Effie and Haymitch? Peeta complimented Katniss’ archery, whereas Katniss talked about Peeta’s physical strength, things they both used for that last fight with Cato.

But even with a weapon or not, Peeta was still the “weaker link” in both the movie and the book after that fight. He fought like hell in both, but ended up in a pickle afterwards, with the book actually being worse (rip leg). So I just sjdksjdksds. Unfortunately, it seems like Peeta is going to be deemed weak no matter what by certain audience members, simply because he’s not 100% hard/10,000 pounds of pure unbridled masculinity. Even though in my opinion, that’s what makes him such a likable, wonderful character. He’s actually a sensitive, compassionate guy who can sTILL THROW HANDS AT THE END OF THE DAY. It definitely makes him more human.

My thoughts on this:

While it’s true there are people who consider Peeta weak simply for not being a douchy alpha male, I think the films (yes, all of them, though THG was the worse offender) encourage this perception. Take the scene in CF where Gale is whipped, for example. In the book, Haymitch AND Peeta do some quick thinking to stop the whipping and keep Katniss out of further trouble. How is this played out in the adaptation? Peeta rushes forward like a fool, and is quickly cut off by Haymitch, who saves the day. The book uses the scene to showcase Peeta’s strengths and to reinforce why he is important to the story. In the movie scene, Peeta is less than useless. It’s implied he would have escalated the problem had Haymitch not stepped in.

The other side of the problem, of course, is that Hollywood still isn’t quite comfortable with female leads in action movies. Women still have to prove they’re Strong Female Characters™ by physically besting the men around them, and there’s still a tendency to just genderswap the traditional hero and his love interest. So movie!Katniss is tougher, more confident, more aggressive, and less vulnerable than her book counterpart, and Peeta gets relegated to Damsel in Distress.

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TBF Peeta throwing the medicine ball showed the careers he wasn’t weak and let him into their possee.

AND he’ll get picked first if an impromptu game of baseball starts in the arena! That looked like decent pitching.

I wish they had Peeta throwing the balls without Katniss' prompting. It would have shown he was a strategist working on securing a Career alliance. Instead, he sort of just comes across as a bumbling oaf, useless and helpless without Katniss.

Why the heck were there medicine balls anyway? It wasn’t supposed to be a gym you workout at on Fridays. The training room was supposed to help tributes train weapons, fighting, and survival skills.

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porchwood

THG Reread: A ramble about Rory, tesserae, and the Hawthornes in general

Disclaimer: I’ve never taken part in any official THG reread/discussion and I essentially read the book in isolation, so anything I say in these posts may well have been discussed and dismissed years ago.

I know we’re not quite on Catching Fire at present but the quote pictured above fits neatly into something I wanted to remark on in Ch 1 of THG, and this way I can preempt the forthcoming discussion about something that drives me crazy: Rory Hawthorne’s age.

(Minor rant may ensue. Apologies in advance.)

I’ve had fandom folk tell me that Rory and Prim have the same age gap as Gale and Katniss, and my best guess is that this comes from the THG Wiki (screenshot above). To be fair, we get almost no details about Gale’s family in THG and then CF kicks off and BOOM, they have names and ages. In particular, we find out that Rory is twelve at the time of the Victory Tour (i.e., midway between the 74th and 75th Games but before January, because Posy is still four and she’ll turn five shortly after the anniversary of the mine explosion).

Unpopular opinion: I firmly believe that Rory is - at the very least - a few months younger than Prim, in part because of the age reference in CF and also because of the complete lack of mention of Rory in the reaping lead-up of THG. If Rory is twelve sixish months after the reaping, then either the 74th Games was his first reaping (and he’s going to turn 13 in the next sixish months, making him the same age as Prim) or the 75th/Quarter Quell was supposed to be his first reaping. And while I know that this is effectively argument from ignorance, I have a hard time believing that the 74th was Rory’s first reaping when there wasn’t one speck of mention, not in all that tesserae narrative from Katniss nor at any point from Gale. In fact, Gale’s pretty darned focused on Katniss come reaping day, and there’s no shared anxiety or anger about their siblings going into the pool for the first time. Yes, in CF Katniss imagines Gale volunteering for Rory as she did for Prim (in that awful post-whipping Galeniss time We Do Not Talk About), but based on the absence of references to Rory in the reaping from THG, I don’t believe he was eligible for those Games.

Speaking of the Hawthorne children: while working on Six Months to Strawberry Time (my parallel Gadge fic to WtM), my interest was piqued by the gaps in the lineup. At the time of that age reference from CF, Gale is somewhere between 18-19, Rory is 12, Vick is 10, and Posy is 4. Were there miscarriages/stillbirths/children who simply didn’t survive during those 6-7 years between Gale and Rory (prime childbearing years for Hazelle, one imagines) and the 5-6 years between Vick and Posy? (For that matter, was Posy a longed-for girl after a line-up of boys - or a surprise pregnancy?) I think it’s likely there were/were supposed to be more Hawthorne children (in fact, I might have a related headcanon simmering…), but as in all of this speculation, I could be entirely wrong. 

Further: are the Hawthornes a good representative sample of a Seam family, with children born over 14-15 years (resulting in TWENTY reapings for Hazelle to endure, if my math is correct, with another child going into the bowl right around the time their predecessor ages out), and does this say something about family planning and/or birth control in Twelve - or the lack thereof? (I suspect that fertility awareness practices like cervical mucus checks were likely a part of the process - not foolproof, of course, but the price is right, and it’s a method accessible to the population with a little education from the local apothecary.) 

And here’s something I find particularly interesting: Gale took tesserae for every member of his family when he was twelve, at which point his father was still alive and Posy hadn’t yet been born. Now, Katniss points out that her mother received “a small amount of money as compensation for [Mr. Everdeen’s] death, enough to cover one month of grieving at which time [Mrs. Everdeen] would be expected to get a job,” and presumably the same was true for Hazelle, who “was out hunting the streets for work” “less than a week after she gave birth” (a subject for a future post!). So I’m wondering: just how much did a miner earn, and was it unusual for a Seam wife to work outside the home, unless her husband had died? (I know the presence of too-small-for-school children would certainly be a factor, as it was with baby Posy.) With Katniss, tesserae was a matter of survival after her father died, especially as her mother wasn’t bringing in any income, but Gale signed up for tesserae as soon as he was eligible, and his family was only one child larger than the Everdeens’ (and his father was still alive and working). Would Hazelle have been out working if not for Vick (who would’ve been somewhere around 3-4 at the time of Gale’s first reaping) and that’s why they needed the resource stream of tesserae? And do you think Katniss would have signed up for tesserae at twelve if her father was still alive, or were the Everdeens minutely better off than the Hawthornes in some way (ex. Mrs. Everdeen’s apothecary business)?

I discussed the Hawthornes age gaps with @christinaroseandrews (fanficallergy) once, she had some very good points, and we both agreed there were children missing between Gale and Rory and Vick and Posey.

The issue of tesserae is another topic altogether. Maybe Gale signed up because there were more siblings at some point, although they’re never mentioned.

I doubt Katniss would’ve taken it were her father had survived, she mentions she was somewhat better fed than most kids in the Seam, if even for a small margin. But, later on CF, Katniss says that Rory had to sign up for tesserea and Gale couldn’t speak of it. This came about after Gale’s flogging, when he was laid to get better and nobody wanted to use Hazelle’s washing services for fear of association. I’m going out on limb here and say that Gale’s wages, combined with his hunts and Hazelle’s income was enough to keep everyone fed and safe from entering tesserae.

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gabzep

You also have the amount of slips has per Katniss in THG Gale had 42,

“Gale, who is eighteen and has been either helping or single-handedly feeding a family of five for seven years, will have his name in forty-two times”

And Gale tells Madge:

“What can you have? Five entries? I had six when I was just twelve years old”

(Once, because he had to, and 5 times for tesserae for him, his mom, his dad, 2 siblings)

The major issue that is always over looked is one that I’ve always maintained and I’ve discussed this with @notanislander . Is if Mr. Hawthorne was alive and in good health working in the mines, why would 12 year old Gale sign up?

If Gales father was “sickly,” it would’ve been mentioned. Gale would’ve addressed with Katniss. His father didn’t die until he was 14. His father also taught Gale how to be a trapper /hunter. There wouldn’t be a need for food unless something was wrong in the Hawthorne home.

Just from how angry Gale is at the system, it reminds me of the kids whom I work with privately. Kids whose parents are abusing some sort if substance. I would say since D12 is one of the poorest and Morphling is really expensive l, the cheapest drug is alcohol.

In my head cannon, I think Gale’s father might have been abusive and or used up his earnings to drink, causing Gale the need to be the protector of his family, the head if the family from an early age….its why when Katniss meets him not only his physical appearance but his personality screams older man at only 14. He’d been the man of the house for years.

It also why he wasn’t phased by Katniss whole your father and mine were miners speach at the NUT. He had major daddy issues. I’m sure Gale loved his father but didn’t have that same bond Katniss had with her father…

I’ve seen a lot in my community…and I see a lot of Gale types…kids perfect for the Alma Coins if this world to manipulate and brain wash.

Kids with parents still sign up for tesserae. It’s not just orphans signing up, as its existence wouldn’t be nearly as widespread throughout the nation or the Seam.

Gale’s family has a lot of kids and his father wasn’t hunting like Katniss’s father was. I think the general implication of the books is that the people who sign up for tesserae are just poor for various reasons, and it seems to be fairly common in the Seam. 

More specifically, here’s a quote from CF: “As the days pass, things go from bad to worse. The mines stay shut for two weeks, and by that time half of District 12 is starving. The number of kids signing up for tesserae soars, but they often don’t receive their grain.”

I’m curious: nobody’s commented on the subject of Rory’s age/first reaping, so does that mean there’s now a fandom consensus that he’s younger than Prim? :D (If so, that’s awesome, just unexpected!) Anyway, thanks for all the insightful comments!

@alliswell21 - So cool to hear that others have speculated on the possibility/likelihood of additional Hawthorne children! If the discussion you referenced took place on a post, I’d love to see it. It’s something that had never even crossed my radar till I was writing about the Hawthorne sibs and went, “Hold up, 6-7 years between Gale and Rory??”

@gabzep - The quote you mentioned (“Gale, who is eighteen and has been either helping or single-handedly feeding a family of five for seven years”) really strikes me too, because Gale’s father didn’t die till Gale was 14 and his mother is pretty dang resourceful and someone had to teach Gale how to set those perfect snares. (Crackpot theory: It was Hazelle! ;D) Yet he was “either helping or single-handedly” taking care of his entire family (assuming Katniss isn’t being hyperbolic) at ages 12-13? What are we missing here? 

@mega-aulover - I couldn’t agree more on your always-overlooked issue and I feel so stupid for never having considered that Gale’s father might’ve been neglectful, an alcoholic, etc.! I think it’s easy to imagine that Gale’s father was just a variation on Katniss’s (I assumed they were good friends/hunting partners for the longest time and referenced it as such in early chapters of WtM, something I’ve been drop-kicking myself for ever since :P) but we have nothing in canon to base that on aside from the fact that both Mr. Hawthorne and Mr. Everdeen died in the same mine explosion and both Gale and Katniss have some knowledge of hunting and trapping - no clues about Mr. Hawthorne’s abilities or temperament whatsoever.

I think you’re right: if there had been a health issue on Mr. Hawthorne’s part that compromised his ability to feed his family, it would’ve come up at some point. And someone physically taught Gale at least the rudiments of those snares he’s so skilled at (I’m assuming they’d never focus on snare-setting in Hunger Games coverage to an extent where an observant district citizen could pick up the skill), though I’m starting to like this crackpot idea that it was Hazelle. (I headcanon that she was a cousin of some degree to Mr. Everdeen, but that’s a whole ‘nother story.) 

And further: did Hazelle never have a job till after her husband died? I mean, they had a steady stream of kids at home (possibly more kids than we know about) so she definitely had a houseful of work there alone, but she’s a strong, resourceful woman and it seems odd that she wouldn’t have found an income stream until after her husband was dead, especially as she went the laundry route rather than the mines because of baby Posy (because, I assume, it was work she could do in her own home while taking care of a newborn, which she could’ve also done while raising Rory and Vick).

You have some great, heartbreaking insights about possible Hawthorne family dynamics/skeletons, and I think they make a lot of sense in light of the person Gale grew up to be.

@starveinsafety - I didn’t mean to imply that children with parents don’t take tesserae, and I’m sorry if it came across that way. :/ I assume the majority of children across Panem ended up doing taking tesserae, whatever their parental arrangement. (And as you mentioned orphans: I assume if there was no extended family to take them in, they would go to the community home, where, I doubt not, they would be expected to take tesserae on themselves to provide their own food.) I raised the question because many people assume Gale’s father hunted or at least trapped game as well as working in the mines, like Katniss’s father, so I was trying to figure out if there was some other factor at play when Gale turned twelve or if it was simply the presence of one additional child (i.e., Vick, at the time) that made all those tesserae necessary.

And you’re right, we don’t know that Gale’s father was hunting; we just know that Gale is an expert trapper at fourteen and he had to learn it from someone. Katniss makes reference to “the few of us who hunt” in Twelve, so there might’ve been someone else teaching Gale who wasn’t connected to or responsible for the Hawthorne family. There are so many unknowns. Did Mr. Hawthorne in fact hunt/trap? Did Hazelle have an income stream (ex. laundry) before her husband died? (Did Seam wives typically not work outside the home unless their husbands died?) Lots of food for thought!

Re-reading CF right now, and I do get the impression that Hazelle wasn’t working while her husband was alive. Though it could be that she just didn’t have a well paying or steady source of income, due to having to take care of young children. Or it might have even been a seasonal thing preventing her from working - Katniss mentions that Hazelle wouldn’t have been able to do laundry through the winter without Mrs E’s salves, for example *. Her husband’s trade from trapping game (not hunting, since Gale had no shooting skills prior to meeting Katniss), if he did that, would have also been a seasonal source of extra income, and subject to luck. So it’s plausible they might have had lean times where tesserae was necessary.

The only reason they were able to manage on Gale’s miner wages without Rory getting tesserae (until Hazelle’s laundry business went kaput) was that they had the extra food from Peeta and Katniss’ wining the Games, plus all the meat and pelts Katniss was giving them.

All that said, Gale single-handedly feeding his whole family from the age of twelve seems excessive. I wonder if Collins just forgot that his father was supposed to be alive. I mean, writers generally aren’t known for their number skills.

* Writing this, I am once again reminded of how much the Hawthornes’ gained when Gale allied with (and later befriended) Katniss. Not only did Gale increase his game and forage yield by allying with (and later befriending) Katniss, the relationship meant Hazelle could keep a year-round income. And it was because of Katniss that Gale didn’t die on that whipping post. This is why I’m baffled at the amount of people who say Gale was essential to Katniss’ survival. Not to diminish his role, but it seems to me the other way round would be more accurate.

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porchwood

THG Reread, Ch 27: Onion Flowers

Peeta and I walk down along the track, hand in hand, and I can’t find anything to say now that we’re alone. He stops to gather a bunch of wildflowers for me. When he presents them, I work hard to look pleased. Because he can’t know that the pink-and-white flowers are the tops of wild onions and only remind me of the hours I’ve spent gathering them with Gale.

~ Suzanne Collins, The Hunger Games

(This isn’t meta or discussion so much as a minor tirade, sorry.)

Katniss’s response to Peeta’s bouquet of onion flowers has always infuriated me - like, it might be the one thing I can never forgive her for - but rereading it this time, what really stuck in my head is the fact that this is really the first moment when Peeta’s been able to court her properly/make a sweetheart’s gesture of some kind, however homely (and after all that time in the Capitol, he’s probably aching for homely gestures and living!). After his declaration at the interviews they basically went straight into the arena (the rooftop conversation was certainly neither a tender exchange nor a romantic one), and while plenty of kisses took place in the arena, there was neither time nor place for anything resembling a courtship. Then, of course, Peeta went straight from the arena into an amputation and their reunion took place on stage, so now - after all that Capitol madness and the sheer hell of the arena and even dying briefly (”I’m not sure, but I think his heart stops twice…”) - Peeta FINALLY has Katniss to himself and they’re walking hand-in-hand down the railroad tracks (arguably their first proper “date”?) and he stops to pick his sweetheart a bunch of flowers, like he might do at home. 

Can you imagine how he’s dreamt of being able to court fierce, beautiful Katniss Everdeen, let along of having his affections returned? This poor boy who had the life beaten and burned and bitten and bled out of him in the arena finally has a moment to be a District Twelve suitor - heck, maybe he knows these are wild onion tops, but they’re the first wildflowers he’s seen/had access to since leaving home and he just can’t wait any longer to give his beloved a real sweetheart’s token!

I know that Katniss is in survival mode (albeit of a slightly different sort now) and everything is about food in her mind (I noticed this time too: so many of their tender moments in the cave are sparked by, “Hey, I know how to get us some food!”), ergo the onion flowers are “worthless” ( @ghtlovesthg addresses this brilliantly in a different context in Cinders - check it out!) and remind her of foraging (we’re not going to talk about the other thing…). And I know she’s confused about her feelings (although, “The idea of seeing Gale in a few hours makes my stomach churn” doesn’t feel particularly auspicious in the romance department) and she probably still (incredibly!) thinks Peeta is playing the lover for the audience (which, mysteriously, is all but nonexistent at this point), but…it still hurts so much to read. She was certainly familiar with these kinds of wild gifts/little romantic gestures from her parents, and while I don’t know what a logical alternative Katniss response would’ve been, I wish there could’ve been one that was a little sweeter. This was the start of the end of the “honeymoon” and my heart breaks for Peeta every single time.

If only he had found some dandelions to pick.

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“And right when your song ended, I knew—just like your mother—I was a goner”

Cave Week is over, you say? Bah! It’s always Cave Week for me...even if I’m not going to focusing on Everlark, per se. So why did you quote one of the most infamous Everlark lines, you ask - was it a sad attempt to draw attention to your too-late analysis? Erm...well, yes. But it’s relevent, I promise!

See, there is much to glean from Peeta’s story, but because I’m a romantic fool when it comes to THG, the thing that always jumps out at me is just how impactful the love between Katniss’ parents is. We already know how much it affects Katniss, as she often uses them as a gold standard on what romance is supposed to look like.

“I reach out to touch his cheek and he catches my hand and presses it against his lips. I remember my father doing this very thing to my mother and I wonder where Peeta picked it up”

"“Peeta!” I say, trying for the special tone that my mother used only with my father.

But I think their love also greatly influenced Peeta. Look at what his father told him about why Katniss’ ran away to the Seam:

And I said, ‘A coal miner? Why did she want a coal miner if she could’ve had you?’ And he said, ‘Because when he sings... even the birds stop to listen.’

So 5 year old Peeta gets it into his head that singing that the birds stop to listen to  = epic love. It’s no wonder then, that when that exact thing happens as Katniss sings, he thinks he’s a goner! The Everdeens’ love informed Katniss’ and Peeta’s love. And we all know what that love/crush lead to - a rebellion that ended the murder of children and the overthrowing of a dictatorial government. It’s a reminder that all our choices and actions, no matter how seemingly trivial, affect others’ lives. It’s a bit scary but, as Katniss finds out, it can also lead to greatness.

Stray thoughts about the Everdeen/Mellark love triangle:

  • I don’t where Peeta gets his tact from, because it’s not from either of his parents. Seriously, who tells their 5 year old that they wanted to marry a woman who wasn’t the kid’s mother?? Mrs Mellark must have been piiissed hearing that on national television.
  • I don’t think Mr Mellark was ever in a relationship with Katniss’s mother. He says he wanted to marry her, not that they were going to marry. Mrs E was very beautiful in her day, and she probably had many admirers.
  • Was Mr Mellark the Gale of that love triangle, or a Peeta who never worked up the courage to talk to Katniss?
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For @panem_propaganda’s #100daysofmockingjay, #THGTrilogy

This line of Peeta’s will always be my favorite from the series because it was this line alone that made me an absolute goner for Peeta Mellark. I knew I wouldn’t be able to quit him or the series after he so cheekily uttered these words. The guy was practically on his death bed, suffering a severe leg wound and blood poisoning, and this is the first thing he says to Katniss when he finds her!? How could anybody not fall completely for this guy right then and there?? Even at his worst, his most vulnerable, Peera manages to find a way make his words hit home. I know a lot of others will pick/have picked quotes that are more encompassing of the whole series, but this one will without a doubt be my favorite forever.

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re-re-THG: The Hunger Games, Chapters 1-4: Silence and Resistance

“First, it seems very hard to distinguish between silencing from oppression and silence as resistance to oppression.”  

- Dorothy Roberts.  “The Paradox of Silence:  Some Questions about Silence as Resistance.”  Michigan Journal of Race and Law (Spring 2000). 5: 927-941. 

My goal here is to re-purpose and focus my previous writings on these chapters of THG, picking a single theme.  Looking at Chapters 1-4, one thing that stood out to me was the theme of resistance and the question of silence.

I’m going to do a really obnoxious-feeling thing and “quote” myself – my previous posts (reTHG archive) – and then say something new about them, on theme. 

I love that the district reappropriated silence, just as they used the jabberjays against the Capitol.

Speaking of, there’s the silence of the birds, too. The canary in the coalmine and the birds that stop singing in Katniss’ woods and in the Games (”except one” - a single mockingjay) both warn Katniss of Capitol danger. They also fall silent when Katniss sings, Katniss singing to Rue being the most notable example.

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Q&A: Bloodsport Isn't Soldiering, It's Entertainment

When it comes to child soldiers, how realistic do you think the “Careers” kids are in The Hunger Games and the participants as a whole? Honestly, I think they suffer from the “writing children like mini adults” problem that most bad writing has. That, and it ignores emotion and trauma. They react and fight like emotionless drones or trained fully adult soldiers instead of scared, bumbling children.

I want you to understand something exceedingly crucial before we get into this. Starke and I both technically qualify as Careers. I started doing martial arts when I was five years old, I knew how to kill another human being when I was twelve, I could perform disarms when I was fourteen, and before I was eighteen I was working to teach other kids the same age as myself when I started.  Starke is an Eagle Scout, and that should really say it all.

What I am essentially telling you is that I grew up around other kids, children to teens and young adults who spent their life doing martial arts, some of whom competed on a professional, national to worldwide competitive level and in the care of adults who grew up doing martial arts, some of whom competed on a worldwide competitive level. I’ve seen all sorts of kids do all sorts of things, and what a child can do is heavily dependent on the child we’re talking about. Yes, the average child might be bumbling, but the lifer? The one picked out early and heavily trained? Like these kids? Like Jade Xu? Ernie Reyes Jr? Jet Li? Then, there’s the seven year olds in Thailand who compete in Muay Thai bouts. There’s these kids. And these kids.  And these kids.

Did you know this is a worldwide industry that utilizes children’s performance art for the entertainment of the masses? You just participated in it by watching these videos.

Congratulations.

If there’s an aspect of The Hunger Games that’s incredibly unrealistic, it’s the fact that the novel ignores all of the above. This is not some far flung future, this is now, and its a billion dollar industry worldwide. When you’re looking at a character who is a Career, this is what you should be thinking of. We call this phenomenon: sports.

The Hunger Games is YA, which provides a mistaken impression that kids wouldn’t be able to compete in arena style gladiator death matches. That’s untrue. They already do. The fights aren’t to the death, for the most part, because adults intervene but the ability is there. Children are actually a lot better at bloodsport when pitted against other children than The Hunger Games gives them credit for. You’ve seen child athletes. Add the fact that it’s mentally easier for children to kill because the concept of death and the permanence of it doesn’t really register for them, you have a situation where bloodsport games would be very easy. Condition them an environment where this type of killing is okay, even acceptable, where they’re rewarded for their success, and they’ll be perfectly happy to keep at it. They’ll even be perfectly sane and mentally well-adjusted without any abuse or forcing necessary.

This is the one criticism I’m going to really level at The Hunger Games. The Hunger Games does not understand the mentality of violence, specifically the mentality behind bloodsport, and what draws people to it both as participants and as a form of entertainment. The novel really can’t grasp what draws people to it, what makes bloodsport a billion dollar industry, and why someone would want to participate. The Careers are gladiators, they’re not child soldiers. They’re professional athletes in the Olympic level category, which is the sort of competition they’re training for. They won’t have the same hangups an ordinary child would in regards to violence because this event is not just what they trained their whole lives for, but the competition they competed fiercely to gain access to.

They’re not going to have the kind of trauma you might expect because they’ve spent their lives preparing for this. We’re talking someone age sixteen and seventeen who has been training for around twelve to thirteen years.

What should really disturb you about gladiators is they’re entertainers. They exemplify the commodification of violence and of human beings as vehicles of violence for entertainment. They’re putting on a show, putting on a spectacle, and, yes, there may be death at the end of the experience but that’s part of the experience. The crowd came to watch the bloodsport for the enjoyment of it, and your success in the arena is decided by how well you can put on that show. How well you entertain the audience while you beat the living shit out of someone else. It’s disingenuous to say one would ever need to force people to watch bloodsport because they don’t, they don’t need to force them to participate either. Humanity’s appetite for violence as entertainment is about as old as humanity, and its a cornerstone in many cultures around the world.

The Careers are not child soldiers, which is a very specific term identifying very specific circumstances. They don’t fall under that category. They’re children raised to violence. From a mental outlook perspective, they should have more in common with Olympic athletes, competitive martial artists, and those children in the real world who are raised for bloodsport. You want to find a decent comparison to a “Career” type character, you’re going to be looking at the kids participating in competitive sports martial arts.

Twelve year olds who participate in scheduled Muay Thai bouts against other twelve year olds for the enjoyment of the masses do exist. In Thailand, they participate as young as seven. Olympic boxers, Olympic athletes competing in Judo, Taekwondo, Fencing, Greco-Roman Wrestling, Free-Style Wrestling, you’ll find most of these combatants were training from a young age and competing from a young age in appropriate age group categories in order to get their foot in the door. Martial artists like Jackie Chan and Jet Li technically qualify under the Career title. Jet Li won his first wushu changquan champion when he was fourteen years old. This is before we get into backyard wrestling, where we have kids imitating what they see on the TV on friends or family members in their own homes. However, none of these children are child soldiers.  Child soldiers aren’t really trained, they’re children stolen from their families, brainwashed, and hopped up on drugs then sent out to kill. They’re competitive athletes which, when you really stop and think about it, is another can of worms all on its own.

What you’re missing about these kids in this specific mold is the part where they’re professional athletes, they’re not soldiers. Soldier is the wrong skillset for a gladiator. It’s a good starting skill set, but you need more than that in order to succeed in the entertainment industry. What’s easy to forget when you’re looking at novels like The Hunger Games is we already have a billion dollar industry in bloodsport, and watching humans beat up other humans for audiences everywhere is, at this point, a staple in entertainment. Careers are gladiators, they’re professional athletes, and that’s pretty much where they land on the spectrum. They’re somewhere in the collegiate to Olympic levels of serious with a lowball at Friday Night Lights.

Have you ever spent much time around professional athletes? If they’re good at what they do, they have the potential to be worth a lot of money. If they’re at the top of their game, they know it. They’ve beaten out a lot of people to get where they are, and, in the case of bloodsport athletes, those beatings are literal. No, they don’t kill anyone but the reasoning behind that is there’s no money in it. There’s a lot of resources invested in training a gladiator and, whether they’re successful or not, you can make your money back off them over the course of their career. Even in the Roman arenas, the professional gladiators rarely died. They had fans, they were worth a lot of money, and it’s better to have them around to fight next weekend than bury them.

The Hunger Games has the same problem a lot of YA has which is formula. The Careers aren’t emotionless drones, they’re the popular kids in your high school cafeteria. They’re the jocks and the cheerleaders with a touch more homicide rather than the ones who can never show up to any functions or hang out with friends because they’re training from six to eight and then three thirty to eight with eight hours left in the middle of the day for school.

The problem with this set up is that professional athletes and kids training to become professional athletes aren’t “normal” kids. The Best is a competition, the closer you get to that pinnacle the rougher the competition gets. If you want to be the best, you’ve got to put in the effort. To be the best requires a lot of work, a lot of dedication, a lot of sacrifice. You can throw in blood, sweat, and tears but that still won’t be enough. Talent can pave your way, but it isn’t enough to be a winner. You have to be all in, you’ve got to want it, and be willing to sacrifice everything to win.

The formula for The Hunger Games is wrong because you need to be using the formula from your average sports film about the kid trying to make it big. The kids in the new Karate Kid movie with Jackie Chan, for example. That’s the expected level of competency you’d be getting out of a thirteen year old training for high level sports competition. You ever gone ahead and watched high level gymnastics? That shit is fierce, and the behind the scenes competition for top spots on national teams is about as fierce. This is before we get to other countries like China where the prospective child candidates are scouted early and taken into custody of the state to be trained.

The Careers are gladiators, which means (under normal circumstances) they’d be trained to be one part killing machine, one part actor, and one part stuntman. The training part here is key, and that’s what would keep them emotionally and physically stable. Gladiators are showmen. They’re bloodsport, and bloodsport is honest-to-god entertainment. This is an industry which makes billions every single year worldwide, and there are kids the same age as the Careers preparing for their debut UFC bouts out there right now in the United States.

Reality TV isn’t real, it’s entertainment. The WWE is entertainment some people do believe is real. Bloodsport is real… ish, but to be successful at it you need to be more than just good at fighting. Fighting another human being for the enjoyment of the masses is a different skill set. Gladiators are the one place where I’ll say, yes, the flashy additions to their fighting style suits a real purpose. They can kill their opponent or beat them to a bloody pulp and they’ll look good doing it. With someone who is very good, you’ll find yourself enjoying the bout even when you didn’t want to.

When we’re talking about “Careers”, we aren’t discussing kids most middle class Americans would consider “normal” teenagers, not by any stretch of the imagination. They’re trained for a very specific utility, and working the arena is their job. They’re like every other sort of young professional from child models to child actors.

The key component to understand with professional bloodsport is poverty.  Like professional sports, this is a route people choose when they have limited options. They often don’t come from privileged backgrounds, and for most of these kids in the real world this is a way out. There aren’t better options for them to choose, and by the point they’re seventeen or eighteen they wouldn’t choose another path. They fought for this, they’re invested in this, and this part of their life is an important aspect of who they are. However, to really delve into the dystopic aspect of this part of society we’d end up in Lord of the Flies territory.

A career is a job. You can take a child of five and train them for eleven to twelve years, by the time they’re sixteen to seventeen they’d be perfectly capable of doing much more than we see from the Careers in The Hunger Games. In fact, the entire problem with the Careers approach to the Hunger Games is that they don’t treat it like a job. We have hyper specialized characters who’ve trained their whole lives to compete in bloodsport, perform, and win the heart of the crowd. They’d be capable of taking someone like Katniss, who was competent in their own right but not prepared for the Games, and incorporate them into their performance. Like in any good reality TV show, you use your actor plants to stoke drama and create entertainment. There’s a real aspect to preliminaries in sports where you use them as an opportunity to size up the competition, which is why you should always be carrying around more than one routine.

In the Roman arena, the thumbs up symbolized the gladiator performing well enough to kill their opponent. The thumbs down indicated they hadn’t performed well enough. The right to kill another warrior was one that had to be earned, and this was difficult to do. These rules were put into place because gladiators are valuable commodities, they are worth more alive than they are dead. At least, until they reach the point where they’re no longer useful.

Looking at a Career would be similar to the feelings inspired when you look at a gif with some martial artist performing martial arts that seem to be outside the laws of nature. Whether that’s climbing up a willing partner to use their legs in a scissor to bring them swinging to the ground or a gun disarm that involves kicking someone’s legs out from under them from a kneeling position. It’s the Clarke quote, “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” This was the aspect of the Roman arena that was so demoralizing. You can’t figure out how they did what they just did, they seem so incredibly superior, and now your entire culture is ripped apart into bits for the titillation and tantalization of the masses, but goddamn if some part of you doesn’t enjoy it. (See: the Roman treatment of Sparta.)

The trick to understanding any violence is understanding the kind of training they receive, the purpose of the role they’re preparing to serve. All violence is not the same.

If you’ve never spent any time around children who participate in high end sports or martial arts, you’re not really fit to judge what they are and aren’t capable of. The truth is that children are much more capable than you might think, especially when you train and prepare them for what they’re going to experience. There’s an assumption they’ve suffered abuse, be it mental, emotional, or physical, but that’s actually unlikely. You get more out of a willing participant than you do from one that’s been forced, and bloodsport has never in human history had a shortage of individuals willing to sign up. Modern bloodsport is all volunteers, and many of them began training as children in one form or another.

We can debate the nature of traumatized children, how young is too young, but it is important to remember that in sports like gymnastics you’re often looking at children who are sixteen to eighteen years old. These kids train from four in the morning to eight in the evening, and, for the high fliers, their entire education is probably home schooled. Ballet requires a lifetime of preparation in order to achieve professional status. We have child actors. And, of course, there are the Muay Thai kids I mentioned earlier. They get into the ring and give each other injuries that make their brains look like they’ve been in car accidents. But, if you ask them, most would be happy to keep doing it. The rewards outweigh everything else.

Don’t think of these kids as props. They’re very real, and they have very real desires, real wants, and real goals. You can’t become good at something if you don’t love it.  If you want to write these kinds of characters, you need to try thinking from the perspective of the kids who actually want to be there. Who want to do this. Who looked at the glamour, and the blood, and the cheers of the crowd, and said, “YES! I WANT TO BE THAT!” Not as a passing fancy, not in a way that discounts their experiences or chides them for being childish or naive, but the ones who understood what they were getting into. The ones who were raised in the environment and never wanted anything else, and nothing anyone can offer will ever make them feel quite as good. The harder one works to be good at something, the more invested they become. You can be proud of your skill, how hard you worked, and how you struggled without being proud of your ability to kill. This is who they are.

You can cringe from it, you can be terrified by it, you can feel sorry for them, but while you’re doing all that pearl clutching you can’t write genuine stories about their experiences. You can’t write them if you don’t understand. At best, your writing is patronizing. At worst, it ignores the real dark side of their experiences, their struggles, their sacrifices, and the cost of their dream. You also ignore the good that comes from their actions, like the Muay Thai children who are so successful in the ring they can buy their parents houses, the family bonding with parents and siblings who also fight. The friendships, the families, the community, the support, and what its like to be around people who want the same as you. The ones who truly understand your experiences.

Honestly, if you want to be doing anything gladiator, you need to be looking at sports and the influence sports has on our culture. If you want to discuss the evils of bloodsport or violence as entertainment, then you need to understand the cultures we’re talking about. You need to grasp why people like it in the first place, what draws them to watching children beat the shit out of each other, and why they enjoy it without just outright initially dismissing them as psychos. You also need to grasp performance and sports martial arts as their own skill set, with one not completely rejecting your ability to kill people.

In those videos, you’re watching some kids who are twelve and thirteen years old with enough physical control to perform the same sort of stunt fighting you see in a Hollywood film. That’s forgetting Ernie Reyes Jr, who could do the same when he was about five.

What I’m saying is: The Hunger Games doesn’t give children enough credit.

-Michi

Related to the headline, many bloodsport atheletes tend to make piss poor soldiers due to their railroading of their skills and emotional focus.

On top of the subject of competency and emotional depth outlined in the article, I think many in the fandom don’t give kids credit as to the depths of how capable of cruelty they are. ESPECIALLY the 12-year-olds (Seriously, does nobody remember middle school? Now add a layer of third-world suck.).

Teens and tweens are assholes.

it took me a minute to get through all this incredible analysis! So im gonna keep it short, I completely agree with you in that the novel is not perfect and I don’t think by any means it’s trying to be but I also think that we’re seeing this from a point of view of someone who’s whole life is basically her thinking this way (that the careers are heartless robots) not so much thinking about her training because she doesn’t have (katniss) any training , does it make sense? Like I think we need to remember who is telling this story like if i we saw this story told from ythe point of view of someone from the higher district were they do train it would be a lot more obvious. Like your example of the lord of the flies, right? The argument that children can be deathly is more visible because they train together and they even give out chores based on those abilities and they have the liders vs the hunger games were thise children are separated most of their lifes and don’t come into contact with one another until they are to be thrown into the arena. I also think that we’re talking about to very different cultures, literally, western vs eastern, like in marcial arts (and you can totally yell at me if I’m wrong and being an ignorant) you don’t use your skills not to harm or kill even though you could. Like you mention kids are happy to keep doing it becuse they know that It’ll be stoped but they choose not to ,not because they are forced to but because they want to.

Now that’s no to say that you dont make a valid point in that you feel like the way the careers are described ia very much like that scene from mean girls. In that we’re dealing with the quarterbwswack and the cheerleader and that you bring out a great point that that could be lazy writing or a plot hole, I mean, God knows i needed a proper epilogue in mockingjay and im still salty about it. Lol

All and all that was a great analysis!

OP offers some interesting insight into children growing up in combat sports, but I’m not sure all of their criticisms of THG fit. The article argues that those children are perfectly capable of being vicious killers, that they’re often impoverished, that they aren’t normal kids...well, isn’t that exactly how the Careers are portrayed? They’re not the popular kids - that was Peeta Mellark.

Granted, the Careers aren’t the most developed side characters, but I don’t agree that, as a group, they’re completely one dimensional. We’re introduced to them as monsters and bullies and Capitol lapdogs, because that’s how Katniss views them initially. But later, as Katniss learns to empathise with her antagonists, we see that they’re also people. They’re Finnick and Lyme. Even in the first book, there is at least one brief attempt to humanise the Careers, as Cato shouts for Clove.

I think the problem is that HowtoFightWrite‘s criticism is leveled at what THG is on a surface level - kids competing in a literal death match - rather than the story as a whole with all its underlying themes, which may be why they think THG should have adopted a sports film formula. If the story was just about the the psychology of the children who volunteer to compete the in Hunger Games, and of those who enjoy watching them (i.e. most of the Career Tributes and the Capitol), then I might agree. But THG is a criticism of the institutions and systems that exploit human lust for violence, and of that lust itself. You can disagree with Collins’ criticism, but a Katniss who trains to be the best killer, and succeeds, would be a tad antithetical to the message she wanted to present.

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kleeklutch
“It is both a time for repentance and a time for thanks,” intones the mayor.

Suzanne Collins, The Hunger Games

I tend to skip over this part and jump to the reapings. But this time it struck me. Repentance is a word most often associated with a religious lexicon. Thoughts?

Well in many tyrranical regimes, essentially the state becomes the religion. Almost literally sometimes. A major reason why religions end up getting banned.

Deified state was something I was thinking. But then I wondered if I was overthinking.

It’s been so long that I now forget where I read this (it actually might have been an article analyzing THG way back in 2012), but I once read that removing religions except for worship of the state is meant to be a means of control because a god suggests there’s something more powerful than the controlling government. Building off what @randomnoteforfuturereference, it’s common for tyrannical regimes to remove religion because this is how you keep the people controlled–the idea of there being anything above the ruling regime might plant ideas in the heads of the citizens, who then might stand up to the rulers of said regime. 

There’s another mention that this is meant to be the case in Catching Fire, when Katniss describes the cherubs in the D11 Justice Building as being chubby children with wings. She doesn’t recognize them for what they are, because all religious imagery has removed in Panem. President Snow is the only subject meant to be worshiped.

Tyrannical rulers can’t stomach the thought of anything less than complete control. Allowing any expression or celebration of religion wouldn’t allow them to maintain their view of complete control, so it is outlawed. Anyone caught practicing any sort of religious ritual or celebration is often executed for treason or inciting rebellion.

Religious organisations tend to be powerful and very influential, so it’s no surprise that political figures seeking more control over the people will either jump in bed with them, or destroy them, often establishing themselves as spiritual leaders. You can see this throughout history:

- Medieval European Kings were said to be chosen by God.

- Gaius Octavius entitled himself ‘Augustus’ (a religious title) and claimed Julius Caesar was a god, and thus he, as Caesar’ heir, was a demigod. He also established the Imperial cult.

- The Nazi Party was heavily religious. Hence the Iron Cross insignia and vilification of the Jewish.

A more recent example would be the Kim Jong-whatevers with their ridiculous claims that they don’t need to poo, and that upon Kim Jong-il’s birth, a double rainbow appeared and winter changed to spring. Mao encouraged similar claims.

Interestingly, neither Snow or Coin appear to have installed themselves as godly figures. I suppose Coin doesn’t need to because of lack of dissent, and in the Capitol, entertainment is God. Still, it’s surprising that there’s this unfilled spiritual vacuum in the rest of Panem. Maybe it symbolises the hopelessness in the districts?

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reblogged
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roseymama

Still re-reading

@everlarkedalways is stepping back (thanks so much for being awesome Ara! I definitely appreciate you and understand the seasonality of life - 😘), but I’m still keeping up with the reread. I’m guessing some times I’ll have a lot to say, and other times not so much. Keep reading with me will ya? We can chat.

Yes! Would anyone be up for reblogging all the rethg posts? I'd do it, but have, like, 3 followers.

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A family once brought in an unconscious young man pleading with my mother to help him. The district doctor who’s responsible for treating the miners had written him off, told the family to take him home to die. - THG, Ch.13

How did I miss this before?? I’d always assumed that Seam residents were too poor to ever see a proper doctor, but no. From the wording, it seems there may even be a doctor who specialises in treating miners, but that might just be poor grammar.

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ReTHG - Career Districts

When it comes to the Career districts, I tried to reason how they might have become “Careers.” Who are the true Careers, versus who Katniss says are the Careers?

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roseymama

Glad you pulled so many quotes and put them in one place! It certainly helps solidify why I had certain impressions of certain districts and tributes.

This makes a ton of sense. 

In canon, mention is made of the Careers training for the Games, but it’s only really apparent with District Two’s expertise with weapons. If tribute candidates were trained in District One, it seems that their training focused more on polishing their social skills and general physical fitness, with little actual weapons training. And, I have the feeling that District Four was classed as a Career district only because their tributes stood a better chance in a Career alliance.

All these discussions are great, by the way!

There is one more Career Tribute that we’ve seen: the girl Haymitch fought to win his year’s Games. She was from D1, and is described as bigger than Haymitch and just as fast. There’s no mention of her appearance other than that, though, or her proficiency in the axe she wielded.

I think D1 and D4 must have had some physical/weapons training. How else would Katniss have known the Career districts trained their tributes if she hadn’t seen how skilled they were in the Games? (Actually, how did she know they’d “trained their whole lives”? Might be bit of a plot hole, I think). Also, it would be a huge oversight to not train their tributes with weapons, given that they’ll definitely have to use them at some point. Being pretty and charismatic is rather useless if they don’t know how to kill the other remaining tribute.