Actually, regarding that anon that @genderkoolaid got earlier today about cis women identifying as gay men—I have some thoughts.

Before there was really any awareness of transmasculinity, before there was really any mainstream transmasc activism, there were in fact "cis women" who identified as gay men—AFAB people who would go about most of their lives as women, exclusively attracted to men, but would be active members of queer men's communities. And they were definitely oppressed, they faced sexual assault, and they very much faced homophobia. They would call themselves faggots and while cis gay men would oppress them too, they existed, and none of this stopped them from proudly identifying as fags.

Today, most of those people would probably be considered trans men, but I don't really care about the words "trans man" and "cis woman." In fact, I don't really care about gender at all. If a faggot wants to be a faggot, who is anyone else to stop xem?

The truth of the matter is that female faggots, FTM faggots, nonbinary trans faggots—they're my brothers. And really I feel like cis women faggots are the same as me, not because I am cis or a woman, but because there was never a meaningful border between us anyway, and I'm not one to create one. 50 years ago we were one and the same, and we will always share the past that made us who we are.

Some girls were born to be faggots and if trying to get rid of us has failed for thousands of years, it's not going to work this time.

I just wasted $25 on We Both Laughed In Pleasure. thank you nothorses.

Here's the GoodReads for it, and here's where you can buy it from independent bookstores! (It's currently $20 there)

It's a collection of entries from Lou Sullivan's diaries- detailing the life of a gay trans man who fought for gay trans men's rights during a time when only straight trans men were typically given access to trans resources, transition care, and identity. He spends a significant portion of the book talking about his inclusion and participation in gay men's communities before he started identifying as a man, or transitioning at all.

It's an extremely relevant and very good read, and I can't recommend it highly enough!

Honestly, this is something I should have read a long time ago. Ppl these days poisoned by discourse seem to not understand that gay trans men existed before 2010, and there's literally nothing that makes me happier than hearing anything about a gay trans man simply existing before mainstream trans activism. And I guess this was sort of what I was getting at in my original post. What I meant when I said "I don't really care about the words 'trans man' or 'cis woman'" is that when I learn about stories before Sullivan's about "women" existing as gay men, we have language today to describe that: trans man. And it feels like those of us who lived long before the word "trans man" are confined to the status of being seen by those reading history as "women who lived as gay men."

And I think that trying to pretend like women who lived as gay men are just women or just trans men in the modern sense is doing them a disservice. People who still identify partially or fully with "women who live as gay men" still exist today—I'm one of those people—and by saying "but what if a cis woman identifies as a gay man" anon is effectively invalidating and erasing the identities of historical and modern female and transmasc gay men. Let's not forget that transmasc gay men are still oppressed and made to feel unwelcome within the gay community, so a hypothetical "cis woman" identifying as a gay man is the least of our worries, and attempting to fearmonger about such a thing happening is transandrophobic.

hi i do not like how some of you people have been using the term ‘egg’ lately. i also hate how you talk to gnc people. thank you.

so ‘egg’ refers to a trans person who has not yet realized they are trans and are in denial. usually one refers to themself in this context. i dont see this happening much to gnc women because its much normaler for a woman to be butch than for a man to be femme. but like.

if you know a man who is more femme. they may very well be a trans woman. and that is for them to figure out on their own. but yall see any man who isnt masc in the slightest bit and go ‘this must be a closeted trans woman’ no. shut up. being a trans woman is more than being a feminine male person. not only do i think youre not normal abt gnc men but i also think you are not normal about trans women.

its incredibly rude to call someone an egg for being gnc. what if we all minded our own business.

When I was in high school, a very close friend of mine used to call me an egg, and honestly? It made it harder to eventually realize that I was trans. I didn't feel safe exploring being a gnc man, because if I did, I would be called a girl, something that normally wouldn't bother me, except that it was coming from someone who was serious. They actually meant it, and that caused me to get defensive, and I never realized that I might actually be trans until after I graduated. So, if your friend wears nail polish, or complains about not being able to grow their hair out due to a uniform policy, don't tell them who they are. No matter what, actually, don't tell anybody who they are. Literally just let people be who they are. Even if you know who they are more than they do, you don't actually, so zip it.

when i identified as nonbinary, a lot of people joked that i was a trans guy in denial(i thought calling myself nonbinary was a safer way of being trans and that it meant i wasnt really trans, it was sucky) and it made it so much harder to tell people i was a guy, because i have a general attitude of “if you said i couldnt be this then im going to because fuck you!”

The Egg Prime Directive is a thing for a reason!! Never call someone an egg untill they have cracked, no matter how much you suspect they're an egg or how long it takes for then to crack!

Figuring out you're trans is a super personal and disorienting experience. It has to be your own realization or your brain will be like "outside attack, protect!!" You'll end up entrenching them even further and making cracking harder for them.

Sometimes they're not an egg, also. Sometimes they're a nut: they're incubating something different than you expected, and if you give them a warm, dark, quiet space to grow they'll sprout rather than hatching. And that, too, is okay.

Sometimes they're a rock: they might simply crack and reveal a glistening interior that always existed, but which they didn't feel comfortable sharing with you. That is also okay.

I don't like "oh well it's fine if you never TELL them you think they're an egg" because look, fuck you, no one has more information about what kind of best, truest self a given person might become than that specific person. You do not have all the facts about a person's interiority. You cannot have those facts. They aren't yours to know until and unless your friend cracks open and chooses to let you know what's inside. Not all enigmas in your life have known outcomes, and it is the height of hubris to tell yourself that you can peer inside them without damaging the growth within.

Why do I have to explain to some people that I have trauma involving the color pink before they’ll stop poking me about why I don’t like it

Most people are fine about it but once in a while I’ll casually mention that oh no thanks I don’t want that it’s pink and that person will just not stop ribbing me about it until I say out loud “I’m transgender and wearing the color pink reminds me of my trauma related to that” before they will shut up about it.

This sort of person is rare but it’s wild to me that they’re common enough that I’ve run into this problem more than once with different people.

I think there’s a group of people that went through a hating pink phase and then grew out of it and so they view me as someone that hasn’t seen the light yet or someone that is expressing toxic masculinity rather than a person who was forced to live in a particular way for a period of time that has trauma related to that.

I've seen dysphoric people (especially trans men) being accused of toxic masculinity because we have trauma/dysphoria related to certain clothes and accessories. I once had a femme tell me that all men should wear dresses and makeup, because breaking gender norms makes you a good person. I told her that I broke gender norms in order to transition, and I'm not going to break them again if that means disregarding my own boundaries. She told me I was being toxic.

The erosion of what "toxic masculinity" actually means is very dangerous. Toxic masculinity involves unhealthy expectations that are put upon men, to be stoic, superior, unhealthily masculine, and aggressive. These expectations are reinforced through violence and pressure.

A man being vulnerable enough to assert his emotional boundaries is not toxic. A trans man valuing a certain presentation is not toxic.

If you wouldn't accuse a transfeminine person of being toxic because she embraces a very feminine presentation, and rejects clothes associated with her birth gender, then don't accuse transmasculine people of being toxic because we also value certain social signals.

Valuing one kind of presentation over another is transphobic and, at its core, gender e/ssentialist in nature. The idea that femininity is better, and masculinity is inferior (particularly if it's the masculinity of a man), is regressive and stupid.

Remember that most trans men and transmasculine people were assigned female at birth (with the exception of some intersex community members), and we have fought long and hard to look the way that we do. We are not less progressive because we refuse to wear certain things. We broke gender norms. We won our battles, and we're still fighting just to inhabit our most comfortable life. Refusing to see that is transphobia.

If I had grown up in a culture where men wore dresses, I wouldn't personally be dysphoric about dresses. But I didn't grow up in that culture. I grew up in a culture where I was forced to wear dresses, through punishment and violence. The inverse of toxic masculinity. If you're not going to take that seriously, you just hate trans men and transmasculine people, and want to treat us like cis blokes.

Fighting against toxic masculinity should not mean demonising all masculinity. I sometimes feel that our community has missed the point by an unfathomable degree. Y'all should be more concerned about allowing men to be vulnerable and emotionally honest. But that's not the mission, is it?

In discussions about transandrophobia, someone who is opposed to the concept will almost inevitably bring up Whipping Girl, or other [trans]feminist texts.

One of the biggest claims about the term transandrophobia, is that its a misuse or misunderstanding of feminist language and/or theory.

What people fail to understand is that the term is not a misunderstanding of feminist theory, it is an intentional critique of it.

Unfortunately, much of feminist theory completely ignores the existence of trans men. When we are acknowledged, we are typically treated as an afterthought. Our oppression is frequently diminished, and we are often treated as "collateral damage" - people are only ever coincidentally harmed in the aftermath of attacks on women. It is almost never recognized that we can be the direct targets of violence.

Our existence and our experience with oppression is treated as an inconvenience, or an exception case - because we challenge the core assumption that men as a class benefit from misogyny more than they are harmed by (i.e., that all men have male privilege).

Many people who are not trans men will make claims about our oppression and experiences, while completely leaving us out of the conversation. The preservation of pre-established academic theory is prioritized over giving us a voice to challenge those preconceptions.

The actual lived experiences of trans men can and should take precedent over currently standing academic frameworks. If trans men's discussions of our lives doesn't fit into feminist theory, than its the theory that should change - not the actual human beings who are speaking up about our experiences.

Feminism, like any other social theory, has always been flawed in some ways, and has historically excluded many oppressed groups. Until eventually members of those groups spoke up, made their voices heard, and didn't stop until those frameworks changed to be inclusive of their experiences.

We are no exception. No matter how uncomfortable it makes you, we are here to challenge people's assumptions about gender-based oppression. We have read the theory people keep citing and we are criticizing it because it leaves us out of the conversation. Telling us over and over that our experiences don't fit those frameworks will not silence us. If our voices don't fit into your understanding of feminism, its time for your understanding to change!

[...]

If you liked:

Consider:

Daniel M Lavery: the awkwardness of gender transition

terfs keep mentioning the % of autistics who are trans/nb and that we're 'brainwashed'

and because i'm an asshole, i decided to look into why so many autistic folks are trans/nb. it's not an inaccurate statement, at least the first half, but terfs lie through their teeth so i decided to get to the scientific root of it.

the answer blew my fucking mind.

the study on gender and autism i found said two very specific things about autistic people: we are more mentally resistant to things like social conditioning and binarism. we like our secret third things, y'know.

an excerpt:

“The finding that non-binary identities are most elevated seems to support hypotheses focussed on autistic resistance to social conditioning, which are consistent with existing evidence of the same effect with respect to self-description of sexual orientation. Perhaps elevated rates of trans identity in autism might result from a rejection of the binary cisgenderist norm, which combined with a below-typical concern for social norms could promote the disclosure of the identity.”

94% of autistics surveyed for that paper identified themselves as non-binary.

other studies have found autistic people have higher levels of critical thinking, and require more evidence to maintain or convert to a belief system (hence why many of us eventually fall away from religion) than allistic people.

which means, at least from my perspective, that:

a) the 'brainwashing' terfs are accusing the trans community of inflicting on autistic folks would likely not even work if they tried.

b) the current binary definition of gender flies directly against embedded autistic modes of thinking to begin with.

you cannot brainwash someone into thinking something they already believe.

This essentially suggests that autistic people are likely to be NB because we are in fact resistant to the relevant brainwashing.

[copied from a reply by @maxens]

^ lets deconstruct this post

So. Look. If you want to define transmisogyny not as "transphobia targeting transfems" but as the intersection of transphobia and misogyny, that's fine. Honestly, I'm for differentiating between anti-transfemininity and transmisogyny, while acknowledging that transmisogyny is fundamental to anti-transfemininity (and fundamental to anti-transmasculinity, and sexism/genderism based in male stereotypes ("misandry"/"antimasculism") is also fundamental to both, but I digress).

However. If we are seriously defining transmisogyny as the intersection of transphobia and misogyny, then it makes no sense to say that trans men can be transmisogyny exempt. If its just about the intersecting oppressions and not identity (or perceived identity), then it makes no sense to center transmisogyny entirely on transfeminine experiences. Under this definition, trans men are transmisogyny affected not only when we are perceived as transfems but all the time because its a fundamental part of transphobic rhetoric against us. The best example would be how transmascs experience the intersection of anti-trans bigotry against "unnatural" modification of bodily sex/gender status and the misogynistic obsession with controlling pregnancy and the bodies of those who can become pregnant.

For example: a trans man is outed to his family, who then force him into a marriage with a cishet man where he is maritally raped and impregnated. Its inaccurate to say that this is just transphobia or just misogyny; this is about punishing him for threatening the patriarchy on two levels: taking autonomy over his "female" body, and transgressing the gender/sex boundary.

But if "transmisogyny" refers exclusively to the intersection of misogyny and transphobia which targets transfems, then it only makes sense that we need another term to describe that which targets transmascs. You can't both complain that transmisogyny isn't "transphobia targeting transfems", so there doesn't need to be a transmasc equivalent, and argue that transmisogyny only targets transfems and transmascs are capable of being TMA.

The rest of this is just the same shitty takes on transandrophobia discourse:

trans people who are anti t4t make me so sad. because beyond just not knowing what being t4t means, the fact that they believe that t4t is just being a chaser is indicative of a deeper issue, being that cis people have ingrained the idea that we are unfuckable and unloveable, disgusting by nature, and that anybody who would voice attraction to us, a step further, ONLY CHOOSE TO DATE TRANS PEOPLE, would be a pervert with a disgusting fetish who wont see them as equal.

thats not what t4t is.

t4t is the rejection of the idea that we are inherently disgusting, just because we are in the eyes of a cisnormative society.

t4t is the understanding that we are safer and stronger together as a community than apart.

t4t is seeing your trans boyfriend try on clothes from your old boy wardrobe that you hated growing up but now your least favorite shirt is your favorite because its the perfect shade of red that brings out his eyes.

t4t is teaching your trans girlfriend that has been scared to do her own makeup how youve learned from other trans women, who learned from other trans women, who learned from other trans women.

t4t is doing your testosterone shots together and kissing each others sticks after you put the bandaid on.

t4t is holding the door for your trans girlfriend and showing her the chivalry she didn't get from her dad growing up, but its ok because you can show her now.

t4t is being on the phone with your partner who just came out as trans/nonbinary after seeing you, YOU, live your truth, and them asking you to help them find a new name, the perfect name for them, and you hope theyll carry that part of you forever.

you are trans and that is beautiful. your transness is beautiful. trans love is beautiful. dont let ANYBODY make you feel unworthy of sex or love. THATS what being t4t means.

On my knees begging pleading for at least some of you all to understand that it's up to a trans man to define his own connection to womanhood or lack thereof and determine for himself whether or not he feels it is appropriate to define himself using traditionally female language and communities and whether or not he feels it's appropriate for him to be in a "woman's space." Some trans men aren't men. Some trans men are women. If you can't respect that, I don't trust you around trans men.

some trans men are men who still need access to reproductive healthcare typically provided at a "women's clinic". some trans men are men and have enough of a connection to their own experiences with misogyny (and/or time spent in feminist spaces) that they deserve space in conversations about it. some trans men are men who were once women. some trans men are men who were never women, but were once girls. some trans men are men who relate to women. some trans men are gay and/or femme, and feel comfortable using the traditionally female language and aesthetics often used by other gay and/or femme men.

you will never hold every possible motivation for an action in your head, and you will certainly never be able to predict them all. it's presumptuous and self-aggrandizing to think you know better than someone else who they are, what they've been through, and where they do or don't belong.

This is a great addition. You said it better than I could have.

— The Will to Change by bell hooks

i am very, very much not a fan of how the conversation around “transmascs experiencing body image issues after going on testosterone” has been dominated by “what do you expect, that’s what hormones do, you’re not going to look like your anime twink waifu, don’t transition if that makes you upset”

primarily bc it’s shifting the focus away from the violent policing of men’s bodies under systems of oppression that are causing transmascs to have these sudden onslaughts of body image issues to begin with

like, cis men experience these exact same body image issues

cis queer men are socially punished for not being skinny, pale, hairless, and for balding. like, bears are a counterculture within queer spaces for a reason. fat, balding, hairy, nonwhite, and visibly varsex men are heavily policed in the queer community and the subject of a vast amount of intracommunity violence. they’re excluded from community-building and mutual aid, seen as sexually undesirable, mocked, viewed as predatory and dangerous, and discriminated against systemically.

fuck, straight cis men experience this form of body policing as well. straight cis men are also expected to be skinny, albeit a different kind of skinny, and to only have the “correct” kind of body hair (often mocked for having neckbeards, having body associated with being varsex or a person of color, etc). they experience discrimination and violence for balding, being fat, etc etc etc.

suddenly having a body type that’s subject to violence is dysphoria-inducing. if you were viewed all your life as a skinny white girl, and now all of a sudden you’re viewed as a fat balding dude and read as predatory because of your body/facial hair, you’re going to experience a massive influx of fear, betrayal, and disordered thinking about your body. you are suddenly experiencing a wave of cisnormative body policing, ableism, and often a very different kind of targeted racism than you grew up being subject to–this is a massively fucking destabilizing experience.

pushing the onus of that experience onto individual people reacting badly to it is covering up, and even to some extent doing apologia for, the systemic racism, ableism, and cisnormativity that are shaping the responses to transmascs bodies. like, yes, that’s “just what testosterone does.” but how are you shaping the spaces you are in to react to bodies that are balding, that are fat, that are hairy, that have visibly conflicting sex characteristics, that have signs of disability like “weirdly-kept body hair” and “moving aggressively” and “talking loudly,” how are you making the people around you feel about these traits?

look at the spaces you move through–are they ones that uplift testosterone-dominant and otherwise varsex bodies? do they celebrate deep loud voices and neckbeards and chest hair and big noses and big shoulders and fat bellies and balding in their body positivity? do they view them as socially appropriate, as positive aspects of the space, as sexually desirable, as lovable? if not, then why are you expecting transmascs to view themselves that way?

did you just describe a masculine body as a “body subject to violence” as opposed to a feminine body?

you are misreading. i said that becoming fat and hairy makes you subject to violence for being fat and hairy, and people who were previously skinny and hairless are often blindsided by this new nexus of targeted violence.

also, masculine bodies are definitely subject to violence purely for being masculine if that masculinity is varsex. bodies with dark body hair, deep voices, beer guts, broad shoulders, etc, are extremely violently targeted if the person is assumed to be a woman or was assigned female at birth/is registered legally as female.

we need to make peace with the fact that "i am a girl and retroactively i always was even when i didn't personally think so" and "i am a girl but i used to be a boy" are both equally valid ways to be transfem and both are punk af bc they equally reject societal norms of what a person's gender experience should be

part of being an ally to trans men is not being a dick to cis men for their appearance btw

the short trans men hear you. the trans men with bottom growth—or who are post-phalloplasty—hear your bad jokes about small dicks. the trans men undergoing hrt who are losing their hair hear you talk shit about bald spots.

also, hot take, you should care about not hurting random cis men in addition to not hurting trans men. like just because some guy is being an asshole online doesn’t mean the thousands of young boys reading your comments about someone with their same acne deserved it. i don’t care what your reason is, even if you think someone is bad enough to warrant being bullied, who gave you permission to hurt the innocent bystander?

hey y’all should spread this version bc some people need to hear this context

#ultimate ally mom: forgot child was trans and gave wrong sex talk (tags from @findafight)

the fact that the people who are against the term transandrophobia call the people who talk about it "transandrophobia truthers" is so deeply uncomfortable to me like

could you have at least picked a less loaded term than "truther" and all of it's baggage with antisemitic conspiracy theories - like - even just a little less loaded

there’s a desperate need to portray trans men as oppressors - painting the very idea of trans men talking about their oppression as being as bad as a cishet misogynistic MRA or an antisemitic radio host like Alex Jones going on a rant

it’s meant to put trans men, trans mascs, and anyone who is in community with them on par with bigots and oppressors who do real harm to marginalized people, but also exposes how little care they have for the harm actual MRAs and right-wing conspiracy theorists do. If you actually gave a shit about antisemitism or misogyny in any real meaningful way you wouldn’t devalue that harm by comparing it to trans men saying they experience oppression for being trans men

widespread archaeological evidence suggests that many North Americans of this era acknowledged the existence of three genders: "men", "women", and "employees only"

The Time Before Gender Ideology

By me and Becky Hawkins!

You can read Becky's commentary about drawing this cartoon - including all the ways she ignored what was in my script 😛.

And help us keep on making cartoons by joining the patreon! A $1 or $2 pledge really helps!

100% my experience growing up in the '60s/'70s.