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@mvmac01

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I assume he’ll be black listed. A proportional response from Disney will still be an incoming tsunami to him.

Oh yes, let’s (probably) can an artist for making a stance in a book whose team is an allegory for prejudice. Because that’s not oxymoronic in the least.

Yes, but said stance was a reference to QS 5:15, which apparent says “O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies.”

I’m not quite sure what he could had meant by that

Oops. I meant 5:51

IF YOU READ THE ARTICLE, the governor of Jakarta is facing trial for blasphemy for saying that Muslims that use that line to basically stand against his election (he’s a Christian man and Indonesia is a majority-Muslim nation with many conservative Muslims not happy that a Christian man won the election, and using that particular verse to cry down moderate Muslims for letting it happen) are Musliming wrong. He’s referencing it IN SUPPORT of the governor!

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mvmac01

I read it as him supporting the protests against the Christian governor. This article makes it more clear https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/04/08/marvel-artist-ardian-syaf-hid-anti-christian-jewish-messages-weeks-x-men-comic/

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Daredevil #4 by Charles Soule, Ron Garney, Goran Sudžuka, and Matt Milla

Is anyone else as disappointed in this series as I am?

Mark Waid’s run was one of the best comics I have ever read and I hate that nearly every single change made to Matt Murdock and his world was immediately returned to the status quo.

I know the decision to make the character dark again was made because of the popularity of the Netflix series. I also know that Frank Miller’s run was so influential that Daredevil has been stuck in the grittier side of the Marvel Universe since then and many see that as the best way to write him.

It just bums me out that such an amazing run was so quickly dismissed.

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mvmac01

I bought the first two issues and I was done. Dark and gritty works for the TV show but much prefer Waid's take on the character. It was a witty, fun read that put Daredevil in situations we'd never seen him.

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Me and a buddy have been having this debate for weeks….I’ve been stipulating since BotA that If/when the O5 return, that makes everything we’ve experienced since the point they left an alternate…

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mvmac01

Thanks for sharing those thoughts. There is also a time issue with Magneto, who as we all know was in a concentration camp during WWII. Something that has been referenced a lot lately in his own series. That would make him about 80 years old.

He is, but quite some time ago he was de-aged to an infant by a Alpha the Ultimate Mutant, then later restored to a young adult in his 30s by the Shi'ar Agent Eric the Red.

Yep that's right, thx dude

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AGE OF APOCALYPSE #1 Written By FABIAN NICIEZA Art and Cover by GERARDO SANDOVAL His war has been won. The few humans left alive are enslaved, the mutant rebellion crushed. EN SABAH NUR, the APOCALYPSE, rules his BATTLEWORLD kingdom without mercy, but the terrorist X-MEN plan to end his reign. Success means finding one very special mutant named CYPHER and unleashing a weapon that will kill Apocalypse — and possibly all mutants, too! AGE OF APOCALYPSE #2 Written By FABIAN NICIEZA Art and Cover by GERARDO SANDOVAL The hunt for CYPHER brings MAGNETO’s X-MEN into confrontation with CYCLOPS & HAVOK’s ELITE MUTANT FORCE! Meanwhile, ANGEL has to protect a “flatscan” named JEAN GREY and DR. NEMESIS plans to sabotage DARK BEAST’s quest to become APOCALYPSE’s newest HORSEMAN.

It looks like we are getting a glimpse of the AoA, before the original story takes place. At least that’s what I get from a Jean Grey that is believed to be human, and Beast’s plot. Unless it’s a similar but original version.

My guess of Roger Cruz for the books was off, but I’d say his and Sandoval’s styles provide a similar vibe, harkening back to Joe Madureira’s presentation.

Nicieza should get the tone right. He lived those books after all.

I’m curious about the weapon, and how will Cyphers language abilities play  into it.

It’s easy to forget just how much Roger Cruz contributed to the Age of Apocalypse, and I totally agree with you on the Gerardo Sandoval/Roger Cruz similarities. Joe Mad barely finished his X-Men series of tie-ins, and Roger Cruz did the lions share of the artwork for the Age of Apocalypse.

Having reread the Omnibus of the original stories, it looks like a Roger Cruz book, not a Joe Madureira book.

Joe Mad penciled Astonishing X-Men, Vol. 1 #s 1-4 (the AoA tie miniseries). He also had about 4 different inkers working with him. Roger Cruz penciled the two bookend issues: X-Men Alpha and X-Men Omega, which both had covers by bigger names. (Alpha had a cover by Joe Mad, Omega had a cover by JRJR). Cruz was also the lead penciler for the second issue of X-Calibre, with 5 other artists working on the pencils with him. That sounds like only 2.5 issues, but the bookend issues are the big ones, and they are the beginning and the end of the original stories. From the onset, the storyline was marketed as a Joe Madureira book. In reality, Joe penciled 4 issues of a 40-something issue crossover event. Roger Cruz is the first and last artist you see when reading the Omnibus, and both of his book end issues are double sized. The guy does not get enough credit.

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mvmac01

AoA is my favorite X-Men event and it's good to see they're trying to capture the "original" feel of the event. Apocalypse is a tyrant, X-Men are the terrorists with Magneto leading them. Wasn't a big fan of the stories they tried to do after they defeated Apocalypse.

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Me and a buddy have been having this debate for weeks….I’ve been stipulating since BotA that If/when the O5 return, that makes everything we’ve experienced since the point they left an alternate...

Avatar
mvmac01

Thanks for sharing those thoughts. There is also a time issue with Magneto, who as we all know was in a concentration camp during WWII. Something that has been referenced a lot lately in his own series. That would make him about 80 years old.

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Anonymous asked:

I feel like cyclops was right, and consists in being right. I feel like the reason everyone thinks he was wrong because of his characterization in avx. Had the team written scott slightly like he is now I feel like there would be a lot more people that had neutral feelings of the sides. Also, is everyone forgetting that the Phoenix five didn't just do bad things and that before their corruptions there were no misdeeds done. Wasn't namor the first to do wrong? (Did magik and peotr do anything?)

I can’t help but think this message should have been considered a bit more before being sent. How do you suggest he have been written the way he is now (even a little bit), when he was in a completely different mental place during the time those events took place? 

Scott’s characterization was central to his decisions in AvX. His day to day life was the survival of a dwindling people. His actions were that of a man on a cliff, whose grip was slipping with each moment. His people had been dying for some time, and the weight of the world was on his shoulders.

Now, he is at a point where the dark days are over, He is fueled by hope and determination for a better tomorrow. He can see the potential of this new generation of mutants every day.

While he still has a heavy burden, he see’s growth, and not attrition. Those realities are going to affect the core of who he is, and his outward manifestation.

The things Scott did at that time should not engender a neutral stance. If storytellers aim for that result, they have failed before they begin. These are grand sweeping actions that changed the world, and the direction the future would take. If it was to matter at all, emotions needed to be tugged at in dramatic fashion.

I don’t think most people have forgotten what the good deeds the Phoenix 5 did, but the misdeeds were powerful. The emotions of those moments will stick with you. You cant unsee this stuff.

I would say they were corrupted from the start. The Phoenix had taken deep root in their souls; it just took time before the corruption was visible.

The others did horrible things along with Scott, and he was the last to completely succumb, but they have not got off clean. Scott takes the brunt because he is the grand general. He is the symbol of it all. It is the leader who pays the highest price in failed revolutions. Those below him have a far easier shot at survival, but the leader gets executed.

Cyclops was right. He saved the Marvel Universe by denying the Avengers, Hope. But he did not leave the battlefield clean. War is horrible. As Paton said, “You don’t win a war by dying for your country. You win a war by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his.” This brings out the worst in us, far more often than it does the best.

Neutral feelings are the last thing I would expect, or want from the events of AvX, regardless of where people think the blame sits.

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gpack3

Except Hope wouldn’t have been able to defeat the Phoenix but for her training with the Scarlet Witch and Iron Fist. If the Avengers hadn’t intervened, Hope would have become Dark Phoenix.

In fact, it could be argued that the Avengers deserve more credit for how things turned out than Cyclops.

Cyclops’s plan was basically:

1. Hope absorbs the Phoenix  2. ???? 3. More Mutants!

(Also note that neither he nor the rest of the Phoenix Five tried to restart the mutant gene with their god-like powers.)

The Avengers’ was: 1. Keep Hope away from the Phoenix 2. Train her in K’un Lun to defeat the Phoenix 3. Hope defeats Phoenix

The positive results that came about were within the range of foreseeable consequences of their actions. They knew Phoenix was bad news and needed to be stopped so they tried to make that happen, and it did BECAUSE of their efforts. Cyclops thought the Phoenix was good news, and proceeded to embrace it, without regard for the potential consequences, fueled by nothing more than desperate hope. He had no way of knowing what the results of his actions would be.

The Avengers were right and it worked out in the end.

Cyclops was wrong, but he got lucky.

gpack3, buddy, pal, it seems almost as if you have never read my main post on the subject, the various conversations that have sprouted up around it, or my view on the affects the Phoenix had on Scott  I am at a loss for how that might have happened, and think your bullshit revisionist response is comical

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It would also seem to require a superficial understanding of a number of events.

Cyclops was right to keep Hope out of the Avengers’ hands. Had he given her up to them, the world would have burned. The Phoenix would have come to Earth, and laid waste to everything. The war between the Avengers and X-Men was a necessary action. This is a world where prophecy, fate, destiny, and faith truly have value. In the big universal picture it had to occur in order for her to gain the perquisite experience to fulfill the purpose she was born for. How do you not know this?

I will backup a somewhat, and try to lock onto it for you, so that illumination may occur.

Cyclops never had a plan. He absolutely no idea how to bring mutants back to the earth, and never claimed to posses this knowledge. 

When Hope was born, you might say Scott had something of a religious awakening. He knew in his heart that she would bring mutants back to the Earth. He was clueless about how it would be done, but he knew she would do it. This was a conviction he had to the core of his being. He believed it so much, he entrusted her safety to his only begotten son.

Everything Cyclops would do from that point on was simply a holding action. Keep as many people alive until whatever miracle she would pull off, happened. This was truly akin to religious fervor. That was the faith he had in whatever she would do.

It was not until later that the Phoenix would come into play, and it scared the fuck out of him. You may remember Avengers: X-Sanction, the comic billed by Marvel as the prologue to AvX.

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He had his talk with Cable at the end, where he expressed his misgivings about the Phoenix’s involvement. After reaffirming his faith in Hope, he accepted the Phoenix would be part of this. 

Scott would also learn from Cable that the Avengers would come for Hope, soon. He saw the world that would result, if they were successful in taking her. He was literally given a glimpse of the future that would come if he gave her up. Beyond anything else, he had to keep that from happening. 

Now let’s address some of that nonsense you spouted out about the Avengers’ plan.

They intended to “intercept or contain” the Phoenix before it got to Earth. Destroy it if they could. To say that backfired is a grand understatement.

Their backup plan was to keep Hope in “protective custody”, away from the Phoenix at all cost if that failed.

Wolverine intended on killing her.

You mentioned the K’un Lun, and I am glad you brought them up, but they were not part of any plan the Avengers had come up with. It was not even an option for them until after they were getting their asses handed to them as a result of Stark royally fucking up.

This is where that prophecy stuff I mentioned earlier comes in to play. Those Kung fu folks had their own legends about the Phoenix, and their role to play in the grand design, that were independent of anything the Avengers, or the X-Men had any inkling of. This is a sign of the greater will of the universe at work! Seemingly disconnected flows were now joining up to complete cycles that had been at work for centuries. It can be pretty heady when you think of its magnitude.

It was from this point Hope was able to get training she would need from them. Spider-Man taught her lessons in responsibility. The whole tragedy that was AvX was part of the universe preparing her to harness the Phoenix, and fulfill her destiny. The notion that she defeated the Phoenix is plain silliness to me. She completed its cycle.

But before that happened, Tony Stark needed to have a moment akin to what Scott had, when Hope was born. After Hope had completed her learning experiences, he would reach a point where he was able to accept the Phoenix needed to complete what it had started, and took a leap of faith. Harmony of the universe, and all that jazz.

He would even admit later that he knew what the consequences of those actions would be. 

Fate does not move at the behest or mortal men. The mosaic of the universe is not visible, and requires a multitude of pieces working in concert. After the universe (you can might even be able name it as Eternity) had completed all its action, we were back to where it started. Hope saves the day.

The faith Scott placed in her from the day she was born, would end up being validated. Not having a plan worked out to his benefit, and played to his strengths. Cyclops thinks on the fly, and adapts to the situations on the ground, as they occur. He knew she was the key, and he had to keep her alive, so that she would take them across the finish line. He did so.

Your point about them not trying to reignite the mutant gene does not hold much water. They were not the correct hosts for the Phoenix, and had it forced onto them. They were twisted by its very presence in them. Hope needed to release the Phoenix in order to restore the worlds mutants. Even with all she had gone through, she had a wavering moment before she was able to complete the destiny she was born for.

Captain America coming to Utopia was a fulcrum moment in the history of the Marvel Universe. When it came, Cyclops made the correct decision that would set in motion a chain of events that ended with the Phoenix restoring mutants, and continuing a long tradition of not destroying the Earth.

Cyclops was right.

I have been explaining this shit for 2 years, now.

You’re right that the Avengers were less right than I let on in my original post. Their Plan A was a shitshow and a miserable failure. Their Plan B, which I laid out in my post, is what won the day.

But you admit that Cyclops had no plan. How could he be right if he never had anything to be right about? The one thing he thought he had to do: keep Hope away from the Avengers, he failed at, and the only reason any positive outcomes came about was because Hope fell in with the Avengers. If someone succeeds at their objective despite the failure of their plan, they’re lucky, not right.

Not at all. Your failure (along with the Avengers) is your inability to grasp this was not a controllable event. You can’t stand in the way of a tidal wave, and avert its course.

The Phoenix was going to do what it was going to do, and every attempt to wrangle it, to tame it, to stop it, failed, and exacerbated the issue. Survival was only possible channeled through Hope.

Your plan B was not the Avengers. That was the K’un Lun, who had the Phoenix as part of their prophecies far before there were any Avengers or X-Men. They only intended to train her in order to be better vessel for the Phoenix, and avoid destruction. The Avengers tagged along, and got a safe haven from the X-Men whooping their assess, because of the Phoenix 5. A world level threat created by Tony Stark attempting to control a situation had did not understand.

The pivotal moment of AvX was at Utopia, when Scott chose to keep Hope from Rogers. That is when the die was cast. After that, the natural order of events took its course, just as Scott had always intended. If the Avengers had their way initially everyone would be dead. It was only in the struggle that followed that a positive resolution could come about.

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mvmac01

Great response, love it.

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Grant Morrison and Howard Porter’s JLA was the best team book on the shelf when it was being published. Morrison wrote #s 1-41 or 42, along with some tie minis and one shots, beginning in 1997. One of the many cool things to look for in the book is the fact that Morrison specifically modeled the team after the Greek Pantheon. Superman even had electrical powers to solidify the Zeus analog. Batman was Hades, Wonder Woman was Hera, Huntress was Artemis, Green Lantern was Apollo, Flash was Hermes, Steel was Haephestus, and Plastic Man was Dionysius. Morrison specifically chose second string characters like Steel or Huntress, just because they fit the pantheon. The result is a book about a team of Gods, protecting humanity from unimaginable threats. Threats like the Worlogog, which is what the “Rock of Ages” TPB is about.

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mvmac01

Some of my favorite Batman images come from this period with Porter, awesome stuff.